No more vfw x264 builds?

[COREiP]

Bond I got lots of respect for you and what you have done but this makes no sense. Why do you have to ban topics about x264 vfw... Some of us prefer to use vfw because its simple... nobody is asking for you to build anything.

[ChronoCross]

wow another person about to get a strike.

[DDogg]

Hmm, it always worries me when somebody much smarter than me starts making my decisions for me. I know there must be an excellent reason, but I still prefer to make my own decisions about what is best for me - and make my own mistakes. Free world and all that.

Another thing I know for sure is having a vfw x264 version is sure nice for those of us trying to tinker a little and upgrade our knowledge. VDubMod is pretty dated I guess, but then so am I. Playing around with x264 in in VDubMod is like wearing an old comfortable pair of jeans - even though I know eventually I'll need to get a new pair cause they are worn out. Keypoint here is that it is my decision when to chuck them out, not anybody else's - no matter how well meaning they are.

[ChronoCross]

x264 in vdubmod is kinda like buying a pair of shoes with rocks permanently inside. It works alright for awhile but then you end up breaking your feet and you can no longer switch shoes. It doesn't help that the way you walk is just a tiny bit crippled and you look retarded in the meantime.

[foxyshadis]

So what's the worst that can happen. People still use nandub, of all things, or VDub 1.3c, or Divx 3.11, or AC3 in mp4, but we don't close every thread that mentions them. We just recommend something newer and more compliant, and tell them most people here won't be able to (or want to) help them if they keep using it, so they're on their own.

The x264vfw dogpiles are one of the reasons that Doom9 has a reputation as a bunch of arrogant pricks. (Which I don't believe, but everyone I've pointed here says that's their first impression after reading a few threads, or what they've heard online.)

[ChronoCross]

I thinkt hat is based on the fact that most people come here looking to ask a question and expect a walkthough. and when they get told to use search it pisses them off.

The reason that the modderators are taking a hardline stance on this is because it's causing everyone who spends time helping people learning to pull their hair out when someone insists on using avi, when it is very clear that this was never what avi was meant for.

I always get a good laugh when people cannot figure out why when their using a method that should have died awhile ago they get crap quality or poor sync or stream errors they always cry.

Isn't the fact that you bascially have to spend more time learning the workarounds for such tasks when you could just spend the time learning something like MeGUI to do all of that? It seems like a waste of time to me.

I'll go back and use the old 5 1/2 floppy machine in my parents garage simply because it fits like a shoe and is easy to use.

these vfw pricks need to look at it like this: They always want NEW features, NEW AND BETTER compression, NEW 64-bit architecture (this one is for you KRP), and yet they still insist on using OLD AND OBSOLETE VFW. Hypocritical if you ask me.

[DDogg]

Couple of things - (I feel a DD soapbox fit coming on)

ChronoCross, you seem to have taken it upon yourself to speak for the mods. Did you speak with them about that first?

On top of that, Sirber instructs Bond to close threads including positive comments by very respected members like SMD as well as twice instructing Bond to issue strikes to people who spoke out. Amazingly those instructions were followed.

That is totally inappropriate and unacceptable conduct for a non mod and I know of what I speak as one of the older members, and ex mods of this forum.

Second, yeah, the Doom9 forum is elitist, and was always designed to be, BUT there were safeguards put in place to protect from abuse of power. One of those is the right for members to respectfully disagree (which I am doing)

Third, who wants to use an AVI? There are some of us who would like to use CQ x264 with AC3 in a MKV format who don't care about chapters and all the other stuff. It works fine for now

Fourth, people will naturally move off VFW gradually as the GUI and other tools stabilize and are not actively bleeding all over the place and having their bandages changed daily. Until then, some folks don't really appreciate intrusions from those who spend a large amount of time proclaiming to know it all, for all the rest of us.

Remember, the D9 is a living virtual community. It may not be a democracy, but it is supposed to be benevolent and welcoming to new people (who translate into new talent). It does not exist as a few peoples personal club used for personal agendas. It exists to compile, refine, and spread specialized knowledge of a complex and difficult subject, and to teach that knowledge to those who will come after and replace those of you that burn out.

Best to all good things D9. May it be here 10 years from now healthy and strong as ever.

Bond, if you feel this is out of line then do what you gotta do. No hard feelings and I hope you know you are truly appeciated.

[quake74]

I don't really care about vfw since I don't use it, but I'd like to suggest that the admins (doom9/sirber/bond or whoever) puts up a new sticky (or change the old "About the missing option in the x264 VfW") to include a (semi)official statement along the lines of:

"Most of the admin/moderators of this forum believe that vfw is an old technology and should not be used with modern codecs and especially x264. Forcing x264 to work with vfw can only be accomplished with a series of hacks which take time away from actually improving x264 compression. For this reason, we (most of the admins/mods/etc) do not support at all any vfw build of x264. So people asking for help will probably receive none, and people complaining about the lack of vfw will probably receive a strike."

Obviously the statement should be rewritten by somebody who knows what he's talking about ;)

[Kurtnoise]

x264 rev 581 : no more vfw. Isn't that clear enough ?

[crnagora]

x264 rev 581 : no more vfw. Isn't that clear enough ?

Cruel world :(

[check]

You could always try this: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=95415

I don't really understand the complaint that the vfw interface is easy to set up. I tried real anime 4 a few month ago, and that is far simpler. Perhaps "familiar" is a better word?

[Sirber]

but I'd like to suggest that the admins (doom9/sirber/bond or whoever)I'm no admin :D Just a simple user.

@check

x264gui is outdated.

[Irwin]

I asked authors about special version realanime, megui or others - "special" -> that works on below 256Mb ram. I have only 192MB ram and Vdub&h264 works superb (with avimux and he-aac sound i get normal sync audio and avi output) but when i run this "piece of cra..." Megui or realanime -> "256MB needed"

x264 for vfw is strongly needed


sorry for my poor english

[Sirber]

@Irwin

If you don't use filtering x264 will use less than 100MB RAM. Also, I don't remember your email/pm ;). If extra ram is needed, windows will swap other stuff. RealAnime won,t block you. Only thing, RealAnime 5 quality profiles are ment for P4 3Ghz and equivalent.

[DarkZell666]

These complaints were bound to happen, x264.nl's survey concerning x264's usage showed that only hardly less than half of the users still used vfw.

I can understand the dev's dropping vfw since it isn't their main pre-occupation, but that doesn't mean nobody else can continue developping it ! It's open-source, bl**dy hell ! Just connect to the SVN and checkout the previous's revisions's sourcecode !

If vfw is really needed (which seems to be the case), then a user that has much interest in vfw should continue development and provide builds if he has some time (maintaining a dll and an ini file shouldn't be too much hassle :))

However, I don't agree much with Sirber and bond's anti-vfw reckage. DDog is right I'm afraid, we're big enough to decide what we want to use. Hints as to why not use vfw are still welcome, as long as you provide an alternative (which Irwin didn't find in the first place).

@Irwin : I can suggest you use leiming's x264 gui (works with the cli), it's very light, and even if it has a couple of silly bugs for now (and doesn't come bundled with the required software either xD), they might get resolved if you really need it. Mencoder264 would be another nice alternative for you (uses mencoder as the name suggests).

For other people who absolutely need to encode to h264 via vfw, use ffdshow's vfw helper (it also works for encoding ;)).

The solution to help people forget about vdub/vfw and the like is to provide _easy_ alternatives.
Learning AviSynth isn't easy for everyone (MeGUI isn't easy either imho) compared to vdub.
To add to what DDog was saying, so many of the GUI's out there need a VERY BIG usability improvement before the masses start using them.

[Kurtnoise]

For other people who absolutely need to encode to h264 via vfw, use ffdshow's vfw helper (it also works for encoding ;)).
This has been also removed is recent builds...:p


edit : about light vfw alternative : there is a gtk interface dedicated to x264. Not finished yet with 2pass mode but it's very promising.

[SeeMoreDigital]

To repeat what I mentioned yesterday, I still use the VfW builds because it's the only way I can obtain a reliable (non B-VOP) AVC stream to work with QT7 player!

Even then, any build higher than Sharktooth's Core 36 SVN 322 dated Oct 09 2005, won't allow me to generate 2-pass encodes with MPEG Mediator!

By-the-way, I've tried generating MPEG-4 AVC streams using Recode2, and StaxRip (x264). And while they play perfectly well in 99.9% of software media players, they don't play in QT7 player :scared: And using another "web based" media player is not an option due to "client" restraints!

If somebody knows why this is and can point me to which "QT7 player" friendly settings I should be selecting I will (of-course) stop using VfW and encoding to evil AVI.

[Sirber]

QT7 is not complient.
Also, the vids I make for iPod using x264.exe plays #1 in QT7 ;)

[Sharktooth]

To repeat what I mentioned yesterday, I still use the VfW builds because it's the only way I can obtain a reliable (non B-VOP) AVC stream to work with QT7 player!

Even then, any build higher than Sharktooth's Core 36 SVN 322 dated Oct 09 2005, won't allow me to generate 2-pass encodes with MPEG Mediator!

By-the-way, I've tried generating MPEG-4 AVC streams using Recode2, and StaxRip (x264). And while they play perfectly well in 99.9% of software media players, they don't play in QT7 player :scared: And using another "web based" media player is not an option due to "client" restraints!

If somebody knows why this is and can point me to which "QT7 player" friendly settings I should be selecting I will (of-course) stop using VfW and encoding to evil AVI.
I made a specific MeGUI x264 profile for QT ages ago.
IIRC StaxRip has it too and also AutoMKV.

[Kostarum Rex Persia]

wow another person about to get a strike.

I don't think so:readrule:

The x264vfw dogpiles are one of the reasons that Doom9 has a reputation as a bunch of arrogant pricks.

Yes, that's true, unfortunately. People (admins), you can't behave like that, it's not very polite.

[DDogg]

Speaking of alternatives to vfw which are simple to use, AutoMK is starting to work very nicely and has a comfortable AutoGK kind of feel to it. http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=113811

Certainly worth the effort to check it out and the author is very responsive, and gentle, with noob questions which is going to be a good part of its audience. [the program is still very rough in places, so be warned of that]

@Kostarum Rex Persia - Learn when to not rub salt in a wound

[Sharktooth]

Yes, that's true, unfortunately. People (admins), you can't behave like that, it's not very polite.It's NOT even YOUR forum... Understand the rules and understand this is a video technology oriented forum.
Old techs are not welcome (VFW is there from windows 3.x!!!).
Please refrain your ego and if you're looking for other solutions look for them in a separate place.

[SeeMoreDigital]

I made a specific MeGUI x264 profile for QT ages ago.
IIRC StaxRip has it too and also AutoMKV.Yes that's true...

But for some reason QT7 Pro is not able to re-mux the .MP4 file to an .MOV file :eek:

[ChronoCross]

that's because their mp4 splitter is damaged. Do you have any particular reason you need to have it switch containers? If it's playable in QT then why does it need to be .mov? .mp4 plays in itunes and on ipods.

[Sirber]

Apple moved from .MOV to .MP4, which is a great move :)

[Kostarum Rex Persia]

I only saying that this forum become quite strange, lately. And Doom9, as owner, don't know when to act and stop some users from talking bullshits.

And, I don't mean on moderators neither Sharktooth, who is good person.

[SeeMoreDigital]

that's because their mp4 splitter is damaged. Do you have any particular reason you need to have it switch containers? If it's playable in QT then why does it need to be .mov? .mp4 plays in itunes and on ipods.My clients require .MOV so they can add and/or amend their own "Annotation" information to each file ;)

[Sharktooth]

use avc2avi to mux raw 264 streams to avi so QT will gladly accept and mux them...

[Sirber]

use avc2avi to mux raw 264 streams to avi so QT will gladly accept and mux them...QT7 can mux AVI and AAC in MOV?

[Sharktooth]

He was using vdub with x264vfw so i suppose QT reads avi files...

[Sirber]

avi files with audio in it. avc2avi doesn't merge audio in the final avi.

[Sharktooth]

QT should be also able to read raw aac files...

[SeeMoreDigital]

use avc2avi to mux raw 264 streams to avi so QT will gladly accept and mux them...That would not work as QT7 does not correctly accept MPEG-4 AVC streams within AVI and you can't add other streams (such as AAC audio) with it either.

Currently I use VfW to generate 2-pass AVC "video only" (512x288 @ 480Kbps) streams from RAW MPEG-2 (720 or 704x576 .M2V) sources.

I then use YAMB to de-mux the AVC stream from out of the .AVI container. And YAMB again to re-mux the elementary .H264 stream together with my AAC stream into the MP4 container. And then QT7Pro to re-mux the .MP4 to .MOV....

It's some months since I tried StaxRip, but from what I remember it also kept altering my required bit-rate.... Maybe things have changed...


Cheers

[AVIL]

Hi all,

IMHO almost every person does a personal balance between pros and cons and make his personal choice. And all are respectable. Ok to the idea of evolve to best techniques. It is easy to explain the pros. However, it must also be alternatives for the cons. Only as an example, evolving Vdub to use this new technologies. Or promoting a reliable alternative to Vdub. Then, probably most of us will reconsider our choices.

Who wants the “silence of the lambs”?

[bond]

the threads were closed because this topic only leads to flames.
the thing is we already discussed all this a thousand times, didnt we? so why discuss this another thousand times?

doom9 even made a sticky because of discussions like this, pointing out two clear things:

If you miss these features, you have two options:

1) Use the commandline encoder (with a GUI frontent if you like, here's a list

2) Start Visual Studio and add the options on your own.so instead of talking out loud, learn to code and code your x264 vfw wrapper of choice.

adding to this there is no sense in non-developers whining around about the vfw x264 wrapper all the time.
what we see is that there is no real developer support for vfw. i mean pengvado even removed the vfw code from the x264 svn because he cant stand all this anymore. what else do you need more?

that said, i have a clear interest in keeping core developers of core opensource projects on the board. And when those devs get fed up by bugging of some user on doom9 its absolutely clear for me that the board has an interest in keeping those devs on the board instead of some guys who provide the community nothing but trouble!
its always the same persons who whine around about this, requesting from everyone everything all the time. and i am sure those persons dont even use all the things they ask for. apart from that they break the rules without seeming to care, like flaming people, talking in non-english aso. those guys should be happy that they havent been banned already for a long time.

[Sharktooth]

That would not work as QT7 does not correctly accept MPEG-4 AVC streams within AVI and you can't add other streams (such as AAC audio) with it either.

Currently I use VfW to generate 2-pass AVC "video only" (512x288 @ 480Kbps) streams from RAW MPEG-2 (720 or 704x576 .M2V) sources.

I then use YAMB to de-mux the AVC stream from out of the .AVI container. And YAMB again to re-mux the elementary .H264 stream together with my AAC stream into the MP4 container. And then QT7Pro to re-mux the .MP4 to .MOV....

It's some months since I tried StaxRip, but from what I remember it also kept altering my required bit-rate.... Maybe things have changed...


Cheers
I thought it wasnt possible coz of:
Yes that's true...

But for some reason QT7 Pro is not able to re-mux the .MP4 file to an .MOV file :eek:
... however, what's the problem using MeGUI then?
Use the x264 QT profile and be sure to use AAC-LC for audio. Mux the streams with megui or manually with MP4Box and there you go...

[Romario]

I am so sad, because x264 vfw doesn't exist anymore.

Long live VFW.

[SeeMoreDigital]

... however, what's the problem using MeGUI then?
Use the x264 QT profile..... I'm embarrassed to say I find MeGUI functions difficult to understand :o

I'm not into creating AVS scripts. For me I need to be able to input a RAW .M2V video stream, alter my horizontal and vertical cropping areas visually and manually enter my required output resolution...


Cheers

[Sharktooth]

I am so sad, because x264 vfw doesn't exist anymore.

Long live VFW.
Could you please stop making useless comments? Thanks.
I'm embarrassed to say I find MeGUI functions difficult to understand :o

I'm not into creating AVS scripts. For me I need to be able to input a RAW .M2V video stream, alter my horizontal and vertical cropping areas visually and manually enter my required output resolution...


Cheers
Tools menu-> Avisynth script creator
It has a preview window and most common operations are automated...

[bob0r]

Really, people this is your chance!!
The time has come to learn x264.exe with or without GUI.
I myself always used vfw too, but that was because there was no xvid CLI.

CLI makes you learn about an encoder, more options, and how stuff works. Using Megui can be very simple, but you can also go very advanced.

You can ask questions about filters to use in avisynth, how to improof your encodes, thats what this forum is for.

And when it comes to x264 CLI all you have to keep in mind is:
http://x264.nl/jab.gifhttp://x264.nl/jab.gifhttp://x264.nl/jab.gifhttp://x264.nl/jab.gifhttp://x264.nl/jab.gifhttp://x264.nl/jab.gifhttp://x264.nl/jab.gifhttp://x264.nl/jab.gifhttp://x264.nl/jab.gifhttp://x264.nl/jab.gif

Happy encoding everyone!

[DDogg]

the threads were closed because this topic only leads to flames.
the thing is we already discussed all this a thousand times, didnt we? so why discuss this another thousand times?

doom9 even made a sticky because of discussions like this, pointing out two clear things:

so instead of talking out loud, learn to code and code your x264 vfw wrapper of choice.

adding to this there is no sense in non-developers whining around about the vfw x264 wrapper all the time.
what we see is that there is no real developer support for vfw. i mean pengvado even removed the vfw code from the x264 svn because he cant stand all this anymore. what else do you need more?

that said, i have a clear interest in keeping core developers of core opensource projects on the board. And when those devs get fed up by bugging of some user on doom9 its absolutely clear for me that the board has an interest in keeping those devs on the board instead of some guys who provide the community nothing but trouble!
its always the same persons who whine around about this, requesting from everyone everything all the time. and i am sure those persons dont even use all the things they ask for. apart from that they break the rules without seeming to care, like flaming people, talking in non-english aso. those guys should be happy that they havent been banned already for a long time. I think anybody with some experience on this forum can feel your pain and frustration. Sometimes solutions to complex problems are simple. From what you said above, it is clear you most identify with the developers. That is a good thing as I know you stay on the very, very bleeding edge of all things in this area.

There are realities though. Mp4 is about to become mainstream and I fear you are about to be inundated with more and more beginner stuff mixed in with the more complex development topics. Something as simple as a MP4 entrance level forum with a mod(s) more tuned toward the average Joe Bumpkiss tool user may well be something for you guys to consider. It sure worked for Avisynth! Think about selecting "move" for all those posts that make you nuts and smile.

Or, maybe just get yourself a co-mod, or two, that is tasked with dealing with all things noobish - in a firm, but fair and evenhanded way (including striking old and new members who contribute to what some feel is a sense of mean spirited "leet-ness").

Long and short is you should NOT be required to deal with this crap stuff day n and day out. You are way too talented and provide a special glue for the developers here that must be respected at all cost. Maybe figure out a way where you can still enjoy what you do best and dump the crap on someone else who needs to pay their dues to this forum.

Wish you all the best.

[bond]

its our job as mods to make sure that this is handled: http://forum.doom9.org/member.php?u=77335 and it speaks for itself

plz dont mix "the poor newb wanting to use his vfw" with pure trolls.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Okay... I'll download and try using MeGUI again!

I'll start tomorrow.... So for all those who can provide help please be prepared to answer some really dumb questions ;)

Many thanks everyone

EDIT: Hi Bond... Jeez 15 strikes in 14 months... That's got to be a forum record. Maybe you could do with some additional moderator support?

[Sirber]

its our job as mods to make sure that this is handled: http://forum.doom9.org/member.php?u=77335 and it speaks for itself

plz dont mix "the poor newb wanting to use his vfw" with pure trolls.

hahaha, funny :D

[DDogg]

its our job as mods to make sure that this is handled: http://forum.doom9.org/member.php?u=77335 and it speaks for itself

plz dont mix "the poor newb wanting to use his vfw" with pure trolls. Understood trolls before you wrote it. Understand my point - Senior airline captains should not be required to clean the potty in flight. The distraction might cause a crash and most probably they would not do a very good cleaning job anyway - different skill-sets involved. ;-) [delegation is the key to handling complexity]

(@Sirber - toilet, loo, WC, crapper, head, pooper :p)

[Sirber]

@DDogg

I do not understand your "potty" thing. :confused:

[virus]

I'd like to throw my 2 cents into the issue, given that in the past I've contributed some stuff to x264's VfW frontend and that people keeps resurrecting that good old thread about x264gui - which was the VfW GUI without VfW (MeGUI would be an ideal replacement for it, except for that .NET 2 framework which doesn't run on old kernels and requires a download which is pretty heavy - and often costly - for analog modems... not that I care about Windows too much anyway - but I'm digressing).

I'm all for officially declaring VfW as dead, unsopported, obsolete, crippled, Evil(TM) and whatever - as long as you don't jump on someone else's bones for that, which sometimes has happened here. However, I don't think removing it completely from SVN was really necessary. Of course it's not lost, since you can always checkout a previous revision and reintegrate it if you wish, but that's an extra step and people meeting x264 after r581 might not even realize there was a VfW frontend to begin with.

Personally I'd have just removed the stuff from Makefile and configure and maybe added a short note in /vfw telling that piece of code is unsopported. That is, refuse to build something which may break lately due to changes in the core but basically leave it in as it is. That code might still be useful to someone, might still attract contributors, and generally, it doesn't hurt anyone staying all alone in its directory. After all, VfW has been in an unmantained state for a very long time throughout x264's history, but often it suddenly resurrected.

See, for example, how support for old architectures/devices in the Linux kernel is handled. Nothing gets removed until basically everybody has stopped both usage and maintenance of that part, and that part breaks in such a way that's no longer affordable to keep it in. In my personal view, a couple of the previous conditions aren't true for VfW - yet.

I'd rather encourage people to keep on educating people about the beauty of x264cli instead of overreacting by deleting code when there's no need to delete it. The principles behind the GPL would rather suggest to try and share the code as long as possible - even if unsupported, and let the user decide whether they want to take the burden to reintegrate it in some way.

[Sirber]

most users that want VFW don't want to go in the code.
So leaving it in or out doesn't matter much.

[tomos]

personally, i use both new and old.

if i encode a move or something, then i'd use megui. but if its an episodic thing, then i'd use vdub - only because, afaik,there is no 'simple' way of splitting the video afterwards.

i know mkvmerge can split video, but last time i used it you could only type in a timestamp. without being able to open the vid in vdub then its very awkward to do this.

IMO, mp4 etc is the future, but the tools for those of us who dont write code etc, isnt anywhere near as good for editing/splitting etc as they are for vfw and it looks like it will be years before we have those tools.

until that happens, i will use both. its not because i want to stick with vfw, its because not using vfw severly limits my options.

[DeathTheSheep]

its because not using vfw severly limits my options
Ah, the diversity and freedom of choice suffers another blow for the good of...uh, whatever the good in suddenly canning VfW happens to be (above posts hinted at...something or another, I believe). :P

Well, VfW is old, and I guess it is too easy for the average user, eh... Can't let 'em have it too easy; heavy-duty learning must be done! :P

I mean, it's not like my entire 13-page guide with explanations and illustrations has in one day been rendered completely and utterly useless...

And it's not like 50% of x264 users will be left in the cold, forced to switch to a whole new GUI, container, and jargon to receive any further updates to this one codec, and separately install GUI software to use this one codec, and install .NET framework 2 for this one codec (GUI), and other of such nasty things, eh?

This whole thing reminds me (unpleasantly) of having to learn and upgrade to a whole new OS (XP) or processor just to use a new version of a software (Windows encoder), when compatibility with the older ones could easily have been retained... Didn't you say something like that before, bond? :)

So here is my (constructive) suggestion: just keep the vfw code intact. The VfW is complete enough for the average user, is it not? Why force drastic and unnecessary change when leaving it the way it is takes virtually no effort?

Thanks for hearing me out.