DVD outPut size to small...

[Voodoochild]

Hi.
Strange I did the "Remember the Titans".
As always I compress the end credits to 10% to give more space for the main movie, then "allocate space..." in the action button, Set the output size to be 4.32G Final.
How ever DVD output size is 4.04G :confused: . The thing is the last movie I did b4 this one, was "The Untouchables", I did the same as described in the above, the output size was 4.34G this time, I figured it has to do something with the "allocate space.." , but now it gave me less then 4.32G, I'd appreciate if any one can help me understand why.

10x Elad

[Voodoochild]

Attached are the ECL and Log, INI file.

[jdobbs]

The new Editor/Viewer is still beta, so there may be occasional missizing. I'll see what I can find.

[Voodoochild]

The new Editor/Viewer is still beta, so there may be occasional missizing. I'll see what I can find.

10x jdobbs. I really like this new Editor. The fact that I could compress only End credits and make to main moovie compress less beacuse of that is awesome, in some cases I even don't need to reencode the main feature, since If I allocate enough space the main moovie become 100% !.

[rahzel]

i pre-process all my backups, and theres usually little to no compression needed for 70% or more of the movies i do. also, doing it my way, i never have to touch any of the DVD-RB options to make the main movie better (ie, steal space from extras, select main movie only etc).

what i do is, first, i rip the movie with RipIt4Me, then i run menushrink to make all the menus still images. then i open it in DVDShrink reauthor movie only mode, de-select all the audio tracks i dont want, cut the intro/end credits and select DVD9 as the output so theres no quality loss. then i use Titlewriter to add the original menu back to the re-authored DVD. then if theres a decent amount of compression needed, ill use DVD-RB. if not, (i know jdobbs and others here would disagree with me) ill just use DVDShrink.

this is a lot of manipulation, but i've done many movies with no problems, and it's worth it, as it ensures that i get the best quality possible.

[Voodoochild]

10x for the post.

I also use menuShrink, I use vobBlanker to blank all extras, and there no need to take out audio tracks since DVDRB do it for us including subpictures. if the movie is long like the godfather for example or even 2 hours movie with high bitrate, you still need compression. now with all do respect to DVDShrink.. even for only 90% compression DVDRB output is better. I post a thread about it on the "5th element" movie.
quality of DVDShrink was good but sometimes between secne to secne the transition wasn't flow there were tiny blocks for a split second between scenes that wasn't in DVDRB output.
this is why I do everything with DVDRB.
Also I used to cut end credits but now that I learnd to split cells, it's better to split them and compress them to minimum. You get complete movie without the need of building the timeMap table again with PcgEdit.

10x Elad

[Voodoochild]

Hi Jdobbs, I did further tests with the new segment editor.
I opened the output ISO DVDRB did in DVD Shrink just to see how match the main movie takes, it came out 3728MB, and total was 4126MB. I then opened the original movie that I compressed with DVD Shrink and removed the audio and subscripts I don't want. Then I compressed the main movie to 3728mb it gave me 92.4% compression quite similar to what DVDRB Beta viewer showed 93.4%. problem is beta viewer showed this is 4.32G while the output for that compression turn out 4.04G , so the compression was correct, the movie did compress at about 93% as DVDRB showed, but it showed it to size of 4.32G while actually it 4.04. Any way Hoped I helped a bit...

10x Elad

[rahzel]

10x for the post.

I also use menuShrink, I use vobBlanker to blank all extras, and there no need to take out audio tracks since DVDRB do it for us including subpictures. if the movie is long like the godfather for example or even 2 hours movie with high bitrate, you still need compression. now with all do respect to DVDShrink.. even for only 90% compression DVDRB output is better. I post a thread about it on the "5th element" movie.
quality of DVDShrink was good but sometimes between secne to secne the transition wasn't flow there were tiny blocks for a split second between scenes that wasn't in DVDRB output.
this is why I do everything with DVDRB.
Also I used to cut end credits but now that I learnd to split cells, it's better to split them and compress them to minimum. You get complete movie without the need of building the timeMap table again with PcgEdit.

10x Elad
did you use Deep analysis and the AEC options? (ie sharp, smooth etc). if it's even 80% and the bitrate was fairly high to begin with, DVDShrink can produce a near perfect copy IMO (with the use of deep analysis and the AEC options that is).

[Voodoochild]

did you use Deep analysis and the AEC options?.

Ofcorse rahzel, I know DVD Shrink perfect, I used deep analysis and smooth.. and quality of picture were perfect Have no complains, BUT the flow of the movie wasn't, in some secne not all of them transition between shot to shot wasn't smooth for a split second you could see tiny blocks only for a split second I saw it on the "fifth element" movie. DVDRB did match better job there, since that day I'm only using DVDRB

[Voodoochild]

But I found something strange.
I really want to get to the bottom of this I think it'll help maybi see the problem in the new segment viewer.

I attach 2 screenshots
in both screenshots dvd total output size is 4052MB
4052MB is 3.95G yet the segment slider says it's 4.32g ...

I then set DVDRB to use DVD-9 outputsize remains the same 4052MB, but the slider show 7.78g...

maybi it'll help understand the problem of outputsize in the new viewer,

10x Elad

[jdobbs]

Hi.
Strange I did the "Remember the Titans".
As always I compress the end credits to 10% to give more space for the main movie, then "allocate space..." in the action button, Set the output size to be 4.32G Final.
How ever DVD output size is 4.04G :confused: . The thing is the last movie I did b4 this one, was "The Untouchables", I did the same as described in the above, the output size was 4.34G this time, I figured it has to do something with the "allocate space.." , but now it gave me less then 4.32G, I'd appreciate if any one can help me understand why.

10x EladI've found an error in the new Editor/Viewer in which changes made with "Allocate Saved Space to the Feature' may not be saved to when you hit "Save and Exit" -- this can cause undersizing.

It only happens when that action is the only change made to a segment. So.. if you first resize the entire Feature slightly with the slider, and then do the "Allocate", the settings will be saved. You'll be able to tell by opening the Viewer/Editor again... if the size is still 4.32GB -- it was saved properly.

I've fixed it for the next release.

[jdobbs]

But I found something strange.
...dvd total output size is 4052MB
4052MB is 3.95G yet the segment slider says it's 4.32g ...That's because the value 4052MB only reflects what you have selected. The difference between that and the 4.32GB is the size of the Menus and sections of the original DVD that will be copied intact (by default that would include any VTS less than 50MB or that has no audio and VIDEO_TS.VOB).

[Voodoochild]

That's because the value 4052MB only reflects what you have selected. The difference between that and the 4.32GB is the size of the Menus and sections of the original DVD that will be copied intact (by default that would include any VTS less than 50MB or that has no audio and VIDEO_TS.VOB).

That's because the value 4052MB only reflects what you have selected. The difference between that and the 4.32GB is the size of the Menus and sections of the original DVD that will be copied intact (by default that would include any VTS less than 50MB or that has no audio and VIDEO_TS.VOB).

Jdobbs Hi I found the problem.
First I will explain, then I will show screenShots.

1. Seeing What Jdobbs wrote I mark "Enable menu encoding"
in order to see how match MB each part of the movie.
I do not have Extras , I removed them with vob blanker.
Main movie Totral was 4052MB, Menu Total was 66MB
together 4118MB + some files I can't see not mach more then 4118MB = 4.02G Segment viewer showed 4.32G as I posted in the screenShots b4.

2. I decided to oversize the segment viewer.
2.1 I Compressed menu all the way
2.2 I compressed end credits all the way
2.3 I mark "NO REENCODE" all other cells of the main movie, meaning all the movie wil be kept intact no compression at all, but the end credits.

final total size for movie was 4298mb
final total size for compressed menu was 45.8mb
4298 + 45.8 = 4343.8MB = 4.24GB
YET the segment viewer showed 4.56G OVER TARGET SIZE.

3. I rebuild the project. .....> ......> final output....> 4.23G as the segment viewer showed in the item reduction part numbers but not in the scroll arrows size which showed 4.56G.

Attached are screenShots to demonstrate that.

[jdobbs]

If you removed all the extras, the problem is possibly caused by encoder saturation. In that case you could oversize by 10x and it wouldn't make a difference... that's as big as the encoder will allow it to be. Also, Rebuilder won't allow the bitrate to exceed the original -- so that limit exists as well.

The calculations in the Viewer/Editor are very accurate. When the slider says 4.32 -- and 4.32 is possible, that's exactly what you will get (assuming you take into consideration post #11). But those are the values that are fed to the encoder. There are some circumstances (like saturation) where that isn't what comes out.

[jdobbs]

One other thing. You may want to check your source directory and make sure there aren't any remnant files left hanging around when you do preprocessing. The total size of the source directory is used to determine how much space is used by "other stuff"...

[Voodoochild]

There are some circumstances (like saturation) where that isn't what comes out...


I guess that what happend in this case, 10x Jdobbs. next time I'll be aware of the saturation situation and will choose the outputsize accordingly if needed at all..,

again 10x very match, Elad

[Rippraff]

@jdobbs

Would you please approve the attachments, thanks.
It's hard to follow if you can't see them. ;)

Cu Rippraff

[blutach]

I must say, I have been a bit confused about this as well. I thought it might be MPEG overhead or something. I was doing essentially movie only - all other VTSs had been blanked and the menus shrunk (to 3Mb) and yet also exhibted the same issue as Voodoochild.

Nonetheless, the number on the slider comes out pretty darn close. It's just the numbers above it that seem a bit weird - but my experience is not nearly as way out as Voodoo's. See below.

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/3278/09192006191920ru6.png

Regards

[jdobbs]

The size on the slider would be the sum of:

1. The size you see in the for "Est Size (total)"
2. The size of all the IFO and BUP files.
3. The size of VIDEO_TS.VOB
4. The combined sizes of all the VTSs that are smaller than VTS_MIN_SIZE, or have no audio. They will be the ones that aren't listed under VIDEO_TITLE_SETS.
5. The combined sizes of all the VTS_XX_0.VOB files that aren't listed under DVD_MENUS (in the case of your example -- all of them).

If you do the same calculation manually it should add up (approximately) the same. In the example in the previous post it should be slightly less than 42MB.

[Voodoochild]

I'll have to do more tests, the fact is I usually get the size of the slider +/- 0.2g. This time the difference was match bigger I'll run more tests and report.

[jdobbs]

Something else is wrong then... because with all the current versions of CCE, and with the encoders shipped with DVD-RB I have always been on the money within a fraction of a percent.

The only encoder I know of that has sizing problems is certain releases CCE v2.67. That's because the settings in the ECL for that version aren't consistent.

[edit] One possible addendum: If you have a disc that has a very large number of tiny segments (less than 60 frames, but not stills), you may get some deviation. That's because there is (was?) an oddity in CCE that could make it crash sometimes on small segments. To cover for it, DVD-RB sets a higher-than-calculated bitrate.

[blutach]

The size on the slider would be the sum of:

1. The size you see in the for "Est Size (total)"
2. The size of all the IFO and BUP files.
3. The size of VIDEO_TS.VOB
4. The combined sizes of all the VTSs that are smaller than VTS_MIN_SIZE, or have no audio. They will be the ones that aren't listed under VIDEO_TITLE_SETS.
5. The combined sizes of all the VTS_XX_0.VOB files that aren't listed under DVD_MENUS (in the case of your example -- all of them).

If you do the same calculation manually it should add up (approximately) the same. In the example in the previous post it should be slightly less than 42MB.In my case, #2-5 total 3.82Mb, making 4,446 all up, which is different from 4.38Gb. :(

Regards

[jdobbs]

I don't know how... because that is exactly what the editor does to calculate the value on the slider -- and, as you said, it comes out right.

Can you post your source directory and your INI file?

[blutach]

Sure.

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/2674/09192006215511zl3.png

[Options]
TargetSectors=2265000
vts_min_size=10
Mode=3
OneClick=0
ReduceOpt=0
NoWarn=1
AdditionalOutput=1
LogFile=1
QuEncHQ=1
EncoderMinimized=1
RemoveDTS=0
HC_Quality=3
HC_Matrix=1
SkinVersion=12
Skin=Rebuilder Default
AudioDub=0
QuEncodeType=0
iDCT=6
GOP=0
DCPrec=0
MainMatrix=Encoder Default
LowMatrix=Same as Main Feature
VLowMatrix=Same as Main Feature
ExtraMatrix=Same as Main Feature
ProCoder_Quality=4
DVD_Label=PRISON_BREAK_SEASON_1_DISK_4
DVD_Name=PRISON_BREAK_SEASON_1_DISK_4.ISO
MovieOnly=0
HalfD1=00
Convert_16_9=00
DisableInterlace=00
ConvertToYUY2=1
RemoveDC=1
Encode_Processes=2
HC_VBR_Bias=20
NewEditor=1
HalfExtras=0
HalfD1Extras=1
Completed=34
TargetSizeMode=0
ISO_Output=0
AVSFilter01=
ForceEncode=0
DECOMBFlag=0
[Paths]
QuEnc=C:\Program Files\DVD-RB PRO\Encoders\QuEnc\QuEnc.exe
ReJig=C:\Program Files\DVD-RB PRO\Encoders\ReJig\ReJig.exe
HC=C:\Program Files\DVD-RB PRO\Encoders\HC Encoder\HCbatch.EXE
ProCoder=C:\Program Files\DVD-RB PRO\Encoders\EclPro\EclPro.exe
DECOMB=C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\Decomb521.dll
MPEG2DEC=C:\Program Files\DVD-RB PRO\DGDecode.dll
Working=E:\
Output=E:\
Source=E:\DVD\PRISON_BREAK_SEASON_1_DISK_4\
[Audio]
Selected=100
Remapping=
[Subpictures]
Selected=100
[Setup]
Languages=1111111111111111111111110111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111
sLanguages=1111111111111111111111110111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111
Regards

[jdobbs]

Can you tell me the value of the "Space_For_Video" setting in the "[Status]" area of the REBUILDER.INF file?

[edit] Actually, can you zip up the entire REBUILDER.INF file and post it?

Also -- there are two folders in that directory that shouldn't be there. Rebuilder expects the source to be a legal DVD disc... and you shouldn't have additional folders in a VIDEO_TS. Not sure how that might affect it (maybe not at all).

Another question. When did you use MenuShrink and PGCEdit? The values DVD Rebuilder uses in its calculations are those at the time of PREPARE.

[blutach]

MenuShrink (http://jean.laroche.free.fr/MenuShrink/) and PgcEdit (http://www.videohelp.com/~r0lZ/pgcedit/index.html) were used before PREPARE.

MenuShrink (http://jean.laroche.free.fr/MenuShrink/) folder is 34Mb, PgcEdit (http://www.videohelp.com/~r0lZ/pgcedit/index.html) backup is also 34Mb. That would take us over, I think.

6174

Regards

[jdobbs]

I'm sorry but it's too hard to figure out what the preprocessing did. As near as I can tell based upon the INF file it seems that there was 22810 sectors that have been removed from reference in the IFOs, but were left in the VOB files. But it's really difficult to tell.

1. Your target sectors setting is 2265000.

2. The "Sectors available for video" is 1956557.

3. That leaves 309443 sectors for audio/subs. But the total of all the audio/sub sectors I could find in the INF file used is only 285633 sectors. That leaves a "where are these sectors?" value of 22810 (about 44.55MB). Of that only 3.83MB is accounted for in "other files".

Any way you might be able to do a test without the processing by MenuShrink and PGCEdit?

I'll check through the code and see if unreferenced cells might throw a monkey wrench into the calcs for "Est Size for Video"...

[jdobbs]

@Blutach

Yep. I think the space occupied by unreferenced cells doesn't appear to be properly accounted for. It is removed, but the sectors aren't reallocated to video. On the vast majority of discs it won't make any difference -- since there isn't supposed to be any unreferenced cells on a disc anyway. It's possible that MenuEdit and/or PGCEdit have nothing to do with it (unless they remove the reference). No need in redoing it unless you want to try it on a different disc.

[blutach]

@jdobbs,

Strange. The only unreffed cells total 10kb according to the attached DVD Shrink screenshot. I'll play around and perhaps let Jeanl the author of MenuShrink (http://jean.laroche.free.fr/MenuShrink/) know what's going on. Thanks for looking into this.

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/5508/09202006074428um7.png

Regards

[blutach]

Here's the scoop after restoring the MenuShrink files.

(I think may have messed around with the slider before posting my first post in this thread and so the INF may not actually reflect what was prepared).

Anyway - estimated size total = 4406Mb
Menus, IFOs, BUPs and small VTSs = 34 Mb
Total = 4440Mb
Slider reads 4.38Gb = 4485Mb

Shrink says there's no unreffed mat. DVD Remake Pro reports no abnormality.

New INF from the prepare attached.

Plus, I wonder, lotsa DVDs these days have unreffed material (particuarly ARccOS ones). Many rippers leave it in (I use RipIt4Me which doesn't).

I will keep monitoring this stuff and revert.

Regards

[dirio49]

Blutach,
i think i remember Jeanl saying that Menushrink sometimes leaves some small unreferenced cells. I found out after running my menus through fixvts and it saying that it removed some unreferenced cells . Asked Jean and he said all was ok.

[blutach]

Thanks for that dirio49. I will refer jeanl to this thread. But my current prepare was still out (not nearly as much as would worry me or compared to the OP).

I'll do some more sniffing around on this and report back with results.

Regards

[jdobbs]

Of course just to keep ourselves grounded in reality I remind everyone that it isn't unusual for an encoder will be off by +-40MB anyhow over the course of a 4.32GB disc... that's less than 1%

So even though I want to find out why this isn't spot on -- it's really an academic exercise more than anything else.

[Voodoochild]

Did some more tests on the movie "The Matrix". this time I rippedit and just used MenuShrink without vobBlanker,
after preaper phase, slider showed 4.32G total est size was 4376 = 4.27G, after rebuilding result was 4.31G. So this time everything was fine. I don't know what happened in my last backup ("Remember the Titans").

P.S

I also tried use vobBlanker on The Matrix, removed all ILVU cells blanked extras, to see if the estimate total size would change, but it remains the same..

[jdobbs]

I don't understand why you would expect it to change? The output size is based upon your target value... so removing data from the source isn't going to change it. The bitrates on each segment will just rise to fill the gap.

If you remove information after PREPARE it also won't change the size. The editor is using data it collected during PREPARE.

[Voodoochild]

I don't understand why you would expect it to change?

I know Jdobbs I'm just trying to find why the last movie I backed up had this difference, I guess you were right about the encoder Saturation (which I don't know about it.. so match). Most of the time I do get +/- 0.2G difference which is fine, I was just curious about that movie...

10x Elad

[jdobbs]

If you got undersizing I think I know why. It's either encoder saturation or because of unreferenced cells. The unreferenced cells were being removed, but the extra space wasn't being reallocated. Reference Post #28 above. I've fixed that for the next release.

That's a different matter than the issue of the beta Editor/Viewer's top and bottom values not appearing to jive (which is what I'm working now). I think I may have that figured out too. I think its related to the difference between the number of NAVPACKS in the original and the Backup. It's a little complicated because you'd have to know the internals of how DVD-RB works to get the impact. But I'm still checking it.

[Voodoochild]

I'm glad if I helped a bit.

[Voodoochild]

What a joy. Now the scroll bar of preview/editing and the final output is the same, I can now play with compression on different segments and saving space for main movie and get exactly the output size as the scroll bar shows.

I did "Rain Man" and compressed only the last segment (end credits) to 50% so all other segments could be 100% meaning I only had to reEncode the last segment by that saving time, CPU usage and perfect quality. Then I did "Sea of love" and got 4.32 exactly as I wanted. 10x for a very good update v1.10.08 is perfect.
... Now all is needed for me is the ability to split cells and blank parts in the menu domain... oh one more thing can it ground coffe in the morning? :) :thanks:

[jdobbs]

There's one more little sizing bug when a disc has a lot of unreferenced cells. But it has been fixed for the next release.