H.264 profile for new 5.5G Ipod?

[TheResonator]

The new 80 GB video iPod was announced yesterday. Apple claims it can now decode H.264 streams coded to a true standard-definition level: 640x480x30 fps at up to 1.5 mbps. (up from the old 320x240x30 @ 768 kbps limit of the 5th-generation iPod).

Does anybody have details on the decode capabilities of thew new iPod, such as whether the new iPod can decode B-frames and the rest of tools in Main and High Profile?

[ChronoCross]

same as before. if I read it correctly it cannot decode H264 at 640x480.

it decodes mpeg-4 SP at 640x480x30fps.

Sadly apple has fucked up again

[Student Driver]

From the Apple site (http://www.apple.com/ipod/ipod.html):

Video capacity based on H.264 1.5-Mbps video at 640-by-480 resolution combined with 128-Kbps audio

Others are reporting that music videos are nearly double in size now with the new resolution. I just came in to check if Nero was updating their profiles, and if there was an update on the pre-defined MeGUI as well. :)

[foxyshadis]

Well, I guess first we'll need specifics on its resolution & level limits, and exact capabilities supported; for that someone has to actually get one and report back or be willing to help testing. Then a 6G profile can be published.

[Taxidermista]

About this, something weird happened to my iPod 5G yesterday. I upgraded the fw to 1.2 and gave it a 640x480@2200kbps MPEG4 SP video. Against the Apple public specs (res. limit 480x480 = 230400 pixels) the video run smoothly on the device.

[Sirber]

what's the goal of 640x480 when the LCD is 320x240? TVOut? It's RCA plug is 240 lines. :(

[Taxidermista]

what's the goal of 640x480 when the LCD is 320x240? TVOut? It's RCA plug is 240 lines. :(
Well, 640x480 looks better through the TV OUT than 320x240, don't ask me why. :)

[Student Driver]

The point is more for people who like keeping a larger resolution copy of DVDs/videos on their systems. When I watch the video on my iPod, the resolution doesn't matter. But when I watch it on a laptop or PC, it does. One copy at 640x480 is much better than one "original" larger video, and another just for the iPod.

[migrena]

new video specs from apple site (for any ipod with 1.2 firmware):
H.264 video, up to 1.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30 frames per sec., Baseline Low-Complexity Profile with AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps, 48 kHz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file formats; H.264 video, up to 768 Kbps, 320 by 240 pixels, 30 frames per sec., Baseline Profile up to Level 1.3 with AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps, 48 kHz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file formats; MPEG-4 video, up to 2.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30 frames per sec., Simple Profile with AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps, 48 kHz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file formats
but what is this "Baseline Low-Complexity Profile"?
according to this (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=678891) 1.5Mbit @640x480 @30fps is avilable for baseline profile at level 3 or higher, right?

i encoded test clip with xvid (no b-frames, no qpel and no gmc) at 640x480 with bitrate 2.5Mbit and it worked fine (although it didnt reach that bitrate) but any clip encoded with x264 is not working (i encoded with old ipod profile in megui at 12.5fps to mach avc specs for that resolution and with default baseline profile)
[edit]
weirdest thing is that this video (http://www.eugbanana.com/EverythingApple/Movies/Cornell-640-7.1.3.mov) works fine :confused: it was exported from quicktime 7.1.3
what setings in x264 would be equivalent to this video?

[foxyshadis]

Where does it say 12.5 fps? I thought Ipods (and formerly PSPs) only worked at 30.

[migrena]

my bad, i was so sleepy i mixed up 2.2 and 3 columns, but i encoded previously at different framerates (25 and 30 at 320x240) and it worked fine
i did another test clip now at 640x480 at 30 fps and it didnt work

[Taxidermista]

Where does it say 12.5 fps? I thought Ipods (and formerly PSPs) only worked at 30.

No, you don't need to stick to 30 fps. 25, 23.97, 15... work as well.

BTW, I did a test with mpeg4 SP and new firmware 1.2 and a 720x400@2.4Mbps@23.97fps clip plays perfect on my 5G.

-

[bond]

but what is this "Baseline Low-Complexity Profile"?low complexity most likely refers to the aac profile

[Taxidermista]

low complexity most likely refers to the aac profile

No, it refers to the video, 2 valid profiles:

H.264 video, up to 1.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30 frames per sec., Baseline Low-Complexity Profile with AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps, 48 kHz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file formats.

H.264 video, up to 768 Kbps, 320 by 240 pixels, 30 frames per sec., Baseline Profile up to Level 1.3 with AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps, 48 kHz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file formats.

[Student Driver]

So, is that to say:


H.264 video, up to 1.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30 frames per sec., Baseline Low-Complexity Profile with AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps, 48 kHz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file formats.

I support the full Baseline profile, and include support for Low Complexity AAC audio.

H.264 video, up to 768 Kbps, 320 by 240 pixels, 30 frames per sec., Baseline Profile up to Level 1.3 with AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps, 48 kHz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file formats.

I only support Baseline up to level 1.3 with these settings (the original iPod with Video settings). I wonder what we're getting with jump from Baseline 1.3 to the full Baseline profile. I think I have a chart or something around here somewhere...

[migrena]

i played with that movie i posted before a bit and found out this:
-it works perfectly on ipod
-after changing container to mp4 it doesnt work anymore (i used yamb 1.6.0)
any clue why it wont play?

[Sharktooth]

Level 1.3 is limited to 768kbps.
1.5mbps is out of Level 1.3 specs.

[MuTeK]

Ipod 5.0G support AVC Baseline, level 1.3 - 320x240
Ipod 5.5G support AVC Baseline, level 3.0 - 640x480

[Sharktooth]

thanks.

EDIT: I added a new iPod 5.5G profile to the MeGUI custom video profiles for x264.

[migrena]

thanks, i will try them out

[edit] it still doesnt work on 5g ipod with 1.2 software, so why that stupid mov file works?

[Adub]

I have chaotically updated the megui wiki to show these new settings. Feel free to add your own information.

[NWDaniels91]

I used to use MeGUI to encode videos for my iPod, until the videos suddenly stopped working. (I reported this problem on the Doom9 forums here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=112375), but I never figured out how to fix it.) So I was very happy when I saw the new iPod profile. I thought I would finally be able to use MeGUI to encode for my iPod. But, this new profile does not work for me. What's really strange, though, is that I just re-tested the old, regular iPod profile, that had stopped working for me, and now it works. I hope the new profile starts working soon, but at least I'll be able to use the old 320x240 profile until then.

Also, once the new profile does work, there'll be no need for the old one. The "old" 5th-generation iPods can still play the 640x480 videos. The only reason they couldn't until now was because Apple placed restrictions on the Broadcom chipset in the firmware, but with the new version 1.2 firmware out, the Broadcom chipset can finally work at its true potential.

[Manao]

After checking a 640x480 file that ought to work for 5.5g ipod, it seems there's no p8x8,i4x4 and p4x4, and no deblocking. So I guess low complexity simply means no deblocking + no partitions.

[migrena]

After checking a 640x480 file that ought to work for 5.5g ipod, it seems there's no p8x8,i4x4 and p4x4, and no deblocking. So I guess low complexity simply means no deblocking + no partitions.
i will try encoding with those settings disabled in old ipod profile
what tool i can use to get info about used settings in avc? (sth like gspot would be nice)

I used to use MeGUI to encode videos for my iPod, until the videos suddenly stopped working.(...)
try deleting all profiles and importing them again, megui has strange tendency to mix some profile settings when you are switching between them in codec config menu


i found a person who bought quicktime pro and asked if i could use it to import a video in ipod profile, only thing i was able to output from xvid encoded file was blank m4v clip, mediainfo recognized it as h.264 640x480 clip and it worked on my ipod...
maybe apple did something that allows only playback of clips encoded with apple codecs?
i will do more testing later

[Sirber]

Ipod 5.0G support AVC Baseline, level 1.3 - 320x240
Ipod 5.5G support AVC Baseline, level 3.0 - 640x4805.5g is the new 80GB or old 5.0G with 1.2 firmware?

[edit]

does both supports CABAC?

[NWDaniels91]

5.5g is the new 80GB or old 5.0G with 1.2 firmware?
Both the "old" 5th-gen and the "2nd-gen" 5th-gen should have the same playback abilities. (The 1.2 version firmware "unlocks' the restrictions of the Broadcom chipset so it can play the new 640x480 videos.) It would be very cumbersome to have to sell multiple versions of the same video for different iPods.

[Nic]

For those interested you may want to follow the current thread on the ffmpeg mailing list:
http://lists.mplayerhq.hu/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2006-September/045391.html

That lists some interesting detective work...

-Nic

[migrena]

thank you Nic, this explains alot
it looks like i will have to dump itunes and try different ipod managers (unfortunatelly i'm win2k user)

[Sirber]

@NWDaniels91

Thanks! gonna add that to RealAnime (640x)

[Nic]

I'll try to add something to MP4Box if I get a chance to add support for this uuid thang, (not unlike the support MP4Box has for the PSP).

Of course, if someone else wants to do it and save me the bother that'd be great :D

-Nic

[NWDaniels91]

@NWDaniels91

Thanks! gonna add that to RealAnime (640x)

I would recommend that you not add it yet. It seems that only Apple-created 640x480 videos will sync in iTunes right now. It has something to do with setting the SAR and a special uuid atom. (Read the mailing list thread that Nic linked to.) Until there is a workaround, iTunes will not be able to sync custom-created 640x480 videos to the iPod.

[Gannjunior]

i'm going to install the new nero release 7.5.1.1 to get a look to the new recode, but it asks me to installa directX 9.0c. If I choose to not install them, the installation is aborted.

I don't want to overwrite the dx that now i've installed, that are, off course, the 9.0c (to be sure i've also checked by dxdiag).

do you have any idea about the nero installer behaviour?

tnks
ciao

[Sirber]

@Gannjunior

Is here the best place to ask that?

[Gannjunior]

i want to try the new nero avc ipod profile and since it has been released from a few days, I've seen this 3d speaking about the new ipod profile.
and so i've thought that other people could have had my same problem. i'm not seeing my question as a sin or OT...

[Sirber]

well, your question is about installing Nero and that you have DirectX issues. I don't see where it's about iPod and AVC profile :sly:. Would be like asking how to install windows coz you wanna try that AVC thing ;)

[Sharktooth]

i'm going to install the new nero release 7.5.1.1 to get a look to the new recode, but it asks me to installa directX 9.0c. If I choose to not install them, the installation is aborted.

I don't want to overwrite the dx that now i've installed, that are, off course, the 9.0c (to be sure i've also checked by dxdiag).

do you have any idea about the nero installer behaviour?

tnks
ciao
You can safely tell it to install the DX9.0c. The DX installer is smart enough to detect your pre-existent version and skip the installation if files are the same or newer than the ones bundled with nero.

[Nic]

Ahem, Keeping this thread on topic. Adding SAR and that uuid to a file for the windows iTunes isn't enough (as stated in the ffmpeg thread). I'll try and track down what is needed, if anyone else has any resources, links, info, etc that could help, let me know.

-Nic

[migrena]

i can provide files exported in quicktime to ipod format (640x480 resolution avc of course) that can be transferred with itunes to ipod under windows
also is someone on ipodwizard forums find out anything i will post this
will this help?

[kothrush]

so how is the quality compared to xvid for baseline profile ? I am not able to find much info about it in other places on Doom forum. Has anyone compared H.264 baseline 3 profile with xvid at 1.5mbps bitrate ?

Main/high profile for H.264 is be very efficient and could give "near DVD" quality rip at bitrate of 900-1000 kbps or below. But, since iPod can only process baseline H.264 upto 1.5mbps, can it be close to DVD quality ? Anyone with screenshots ?

[Adub]

okay, so with the new firmware update, the "old" normal 5th gen ipods support the new, 640x480 resolution?

In that case then, the only truly new, 5.5gen ipod is the 80gig version?

If those questions are answered as I think they will be answered then the MeGUI wiki will need to be changed accordingly. I may be the one to do this, but I would rather know for sure.

[NWDaniels91]

okay, so with the new firmware update, the "old" normal 5th gen ipods support the new, 640x480 resolution?

In that case then, the only truly new, 5.5gen ipod is the 80gig version?

If those questions are answered as I think they will be answered then the MeGUI wiki will need to be changed accordingly. I may be the one to do this, but I would rather know for sure.
According to MaxOSXHints (http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20060914025312636):

With iTunes 7, Apple updated the iPod firmware to 1.2 for 5th generation iPods. Besides being able to use the games, the integrated Broadcom chipset for video is silently upgraded. The chipset always allowed resolutions up to 640x480 (H.264 and others), but Apple restricted that in the first versions. Now the power is fully usable (it's needed for Apple's new "near DVD-quality" movies from the Music Store.)

If you use the iPod as a playback VCR for your TV, you should re-encode all the movies you might have. Using QuickTime Player Pro 7.1.3, movies are exported for iPod now with H.264 in 640x480. The quality is stunning if you watch it full-size out of iTunes or on your TV (iPod connected with AV-cable). Other software soon might use the new features as well (iSquint, Podner, etc.).

So if you want to call the 2nd-generation 5th-generation iPod (with brighter screen and integrated search function) a 5.5-generation iPod, that's fine. But as far as video encoding goes, there is no need for different profiles for the "old" and "new" 5th-generation iPods. We just need to replace the current iPod profile with a new one that can make 640x480 vidoes that iTunes will accept.

[Taxidermista]

okay, so with the new firmware update, the "old" normal 5th gen ipods support the new, 640x480 resolution?

Sure, both h.264 and mpeg4 sp. My iPod 5G fw 1.2 plays both flawlessly. And a mpeg4 sp clip at 720x400 plays fine too.

[Student Driver]

I haven't been able to get a 640x480 XviD on mine yet. I have tried encoding it using the settings from the Project357 Wiki (http://www.project357.com/MeGUIwiki/index.php?title=Guides:Ipod_Conversion_Guide) but using 640x480 as the resolution and it still won't import. Are you using MeGUI, and if so would you share your settings so I may try again?

[Adub]

you have updated your firmware, haven't you?

Also, make sure you update your profiles up to Sharktooth's latest as well. He updated them for this exact purpose.

Second, I didn't know that the new generation had an integrated search function and brighter screen. Do you think version 6 will incorporate OLEDs? Probably not.

[Taxidermista]

I haven't been able to get a 640x480 XviD on mine yet. I have tried encoding it using the settings from the Project357 Wiki (http://www.project357.com/MeGUIwiki/index.php?title=Guides:Ipod_Conversion_Guide) but using 640x480 as the resolution and it still won't import. Are you using MeGUI, and if so would you share your settings so I may try again?

I did my mpeg4 test clips with Videora Ipod Converter, editing its default profiles. Videora h.264 profiles don't work with new resolutions.

[Student Driver]

That's cool. I used to use Videora as well. Nice program.

[Adub]

Videora h.264 profiles don't work with new resolutions.

This is interesting. I think that there are some new options that are/not supported. I do believe that I read somewhere on the forum that it may have to do with deblocking or block size. All it takes is just a little experimentation. If you guys could use Sharktooth's 5.5gen profile, and if it doesn't work, go through and find the options that are causing the problem, that would be great.

[BeyondTheEyes]

FYI, see below statistics obtained from a Quicktime Pro 7.1.3 encoded MPEG-4 AVC / H.264 bitstream (iPod setting) :
- Profile : 66
- Level : 30
- Nb. of Ref. pictures : 1
- Weighted P preds : OFF
- Weighted B preds : DEFAULT
- Chroma Q offset : 0
- Entropy coding mode : CAVLC
- Deblocking filter : OFF
- only Intra 16x16, Inter 16x16 and Skip allowed (no Bipred, Direct/NoMC, Intra 4x4, Inter 16x8, Inter 8x16)

[Manao]

That's what I said earlier. Yet, it doesn't tell us if the ipod supports more than that. It only tells what their encoder produces.

If the ipod were to support only that ( in 640x480 ), it would make AVC hardly more efficient than mpeg4p2 SP.

[BeyondTheEyes]

well, I guess that for answering that question one has to find the exact Broadcom processor BCM2722 technical specifications and http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/2722-PB00-R.pdf does not reveal a lot...