Rule #12 Revision - Objective Aswers.

[Skelsgard]

As everybody has noticed, this is one of the most common newbie questions asked, even in Rule 12 violation, but when aswered, 99.9% of the forum members agree on tools that are considered as "the best".
As rule 12 states:
Do not ask "what's best" because this question cannot be answered objectively. Each and everyone has their own view about what's best in a certain area. The best is what works best for you!".
But that´s not entirely true. There are many objectives parameters to determine if A software is better than B.
I.e. there isn´t pretty much anybody that won´t consider HC and CCE to be the two of the best MPEG encoders outthere, based on speed, file size, customization, features, development, etc.
Or MKVmerge as one of the the top MKV muxers, for the same reasons.
These are objective parameters than can be taken as a common ground for comparison.
Therefore, couldn´t be possible to have a list of those tools recommended by the forum community to be the best for given tasks (at least, the most common tasks: MPEG encoding, container muxing, audio decoding, etc), then reducing Rule 12 to really subjective matters (let´s say, i.e. DivX - Xvid comparison, wich is mostly subjective).
A such, a revision of Rule #12 associated with that list could actually provide a faster way for anybody to know what the recommendations of the community are without incurring in rule violations.

Cheers.:)

[CWR03]

I think the idea is to prompt people to ask such a question in a way that will avoid one-sided answers. There's a valid reason for the addition of rule #12 that predates both of us; I've run across a number of posts in the archives that are good examples of why it was introduced. Someone asks "what's best for xxx task," someone answers "yyy is," someone else says "no, zzz is," then yyy guy goes on the defensive for his answer being shot down, then it just gets out of hand. Rule #12 not only helps by preventing the "what's best" question in the first place, it serves as a reminder to posters about answering ojectively.

[Skelsgard]

But that´s exactly what I´m talking about, the objectives parameters to determine any software as better than others, and a comprehensive list of this apps for reference.

[CWR03]

Given that each application's ease-of-use, for example, will vary geatly depending on the ability of the user (I mean people actually have trouble with AutoGK), it would be nearly impossible. Same as with the quality of the output file from different programs, since quality is subjective.

[mod]

Imo it's the "best" rule of the forum.. ;)
But what about "feel free to ask what's the best, but you won't get any answer"..

[GodofaGap]

The trouble is not the objective criteria, but the weighing of those criteria. Say software A is faster than software B, but software B has more features. So software A is the best on the speed department, but software B is the best one the features department. Of course depending on what the user wants either A or B can be best. It basically boils down to the last sentence of the rule:

The best is what works best for you!

The question what is best is either not answerable, or can be asked in a different way.

Examples:
What is the fastest encoder?
Which encoder can give me DVD compliant streams?
What is the fastest encoder that can give me DVD compliant streams?

I did not ask 'what is best?', because I defined what I want, instead of letting the reader guess. Speed and DVD compliancy are things that can measured/verified. (IOW when someone asks what is best, he doesn't really know what he is asking or doesn't care to explain what he means.)

[Mug Funky]

"best" in itself is a very loaded term, and can sometimes unduly influence people.

a lot of the time a filter or a piece of software, or a method of accomplishing some goal will be the weapon of choice for most people, but things can change easily if something new comes along. or something existing that could be "the worst" might get developed further and then prove faster/better than another method.

however, if one is trying to find the most efficient (which could also be defined as best, as they are similar terms) way to accomplish a very specific goal, then "best" can be valid.

i think it's a matter of balance between enforcing the rule for "n00b" posts, keeping the peace etc, and actually hindering progress in a field because of careless wording.

an example is the "what's better, mvtools or motion.dll" question. i don't have an answer for that because i need both, and if i were to say one is better than the other, not only would i be misleading the OP, but it'd be completely useless and possibly harmful advice.

if the difference between a good thread and a strike for the OP is a single word, then i don't believe the rule should be enforced. but if a "what is best" thread would lead to a flamewar, then it should be enforced.

which of course means, it's up to the moderators to decide, no matter how you look at it. :)

it's a dilemma that sometimes the more cutting edge stuff that happens on this forum can also be skirting the edges of the rules. though i wont say a good thread is worth a strike, because it'd have to be a really good thread, and i can't think of a situation where that would occur.

[Skelsgard]

Same as with the quality of the output file from different programs, since quality is subjective.

But I´ve already stated that quality is a subjective parameter and not to be consider.

The trouble is not the objective criteria, but the weighing of those criteria. Say software A is faster than software B, but software B has more features. So software A is the best on the speed department, but software B is the best one the features department. Of course depending on what the user wants either A or B can be best.

Then u would have 2 recommended programs to achieve what u want instead of just one. Is not an A OR B, or an absolute "let´s pick one super-app that can do everything", but what would be the community suggested programs, either 1, 2 or 3, or as much as considered. And there u´ll have it: A and B are good, you need speed, use A, u need more features, use B.

I did not ask 'what is best?', because I defined what I want, instead of letting the reader guess. Speed and DVD compliancy are things that can measured/verified. (IOW when someone asks what is best, he doesn't really know what he is asking or doesn't care to explain what he means.)

Exactly. The first thing we ask to ourselves when dealing with a new task (if never delt with before) is always "what´s best". Is inevitable. But the ones that have been around some time, already know HOW to ask what they need to know.

i think it's a matter of balance between enforcing the rule for "n00b" posts, keeping the peace etc, and actually hindering progress in a field because of careless wording.

It would actually help to "sharpen" the line between both.

It would be like: ok, rule #12 states u can´ask what´s best since that is subjective, but here´s a list of the apps that are considered at least as a standard by the members of this community based on its features, size, price, speed, etc, all objectives parameters. Apps that are refered to in pretty much every post, obviously taking in consideration the changes in these standards thru the years.

Also, don´t read to much into this thread, is not intended as a rant or boicott or any of that sort towards Rule #12. I totally agree with the "intention" of it, and what it tries to prevent.
But I do consider some "amendment" (if u like :) ) could be done to narrow its scope of action.

[GodofaGap]

I think you will find that the members of this board are hardly a unanimous group. Getting recommendations for certain programs might just invoke the type of discussion that the rule is trying to prevent. That's just igoring that it would be a daunting task to accomplish, because any recommendation should be properly motivated.

[ammck55]

This discussion, on it's own, would seem a good indication of the validity of Rule 12. IMHO, of course. Most of the time that Rule 12 is seen in a negative light, it comes from newer members having it pointed out to them, followed by resentment, embarassment, etc., that they hadn't done any homework or research in the 5 day wait before posting. One quick run through the rules would eliminate the tendency to ask for a "best" solution and probably even prompt the poster to lay out the request in a more concise manner.

Is it perfect? Probably not. Does it to cover the bases for which it was intended? I'd have to go with an adamant "yes" to that one.

That said, even though I spend most of my time in Newbies, I don't recall anyone getting frozen out on information just because they violated R12. You'll see the response pointing to the rules, then a raft of options usually follows.

ammck55

[comomolo]

You'll see the response pointing to the rules, then a raft of options usually follows. Which is condescendent and very unpolite.

If a group of experts is not willing to help non-experts they should simply say so instead of stipulating harsh rules like that, let alone invoking them when they get tired of being asked. Not every beginner wants to become an expert. Most of the time a non-expert will feel quite happy with its limited knowledge and will trust more experienced people's opinions. That's exactly why someone may ask "what's best". And s/he's probably not expecting to end up with a firm statement or conclusion, but to read experts' opinions and make up her/his mind. Which is only natural and happens everyday in everyday live in any area of knowledge you can imagine, from law to medicine to computers. Asking everyone that posts here to become an expert is not very nice, and that rule seems to be asking that.

I build, install and sell computers. Most of my friends/family/customers ask me every other day about issues they have and many times they ask me what's the best tool for their needs. It's boring, it's tiring but it's understandable. Besides, it usually takes only a couple of questions to answer quite correctly about what's the best tool for what they're asking. I wouldn't even think to tell all those friends/family/customers to RTFM or become computer experts. Moreover: if I don't answer all of these questions, how could I expect to be treated when I ask my doctor, my lawyer, my you-name-it about those areas I'm no expert about?

But if that's not enough, Skelsgard is quite right when he says that sometimes there's definitely a "best" for certain things, making that rule even more questionable. Saying there's no best is very convenient, but simply not true. As a matter of fact, for a given problem, if it's clearly explained and delimited, there's almost always one best solution. Again, maybe this is just an experts forum where non-experts are not welcome. This happens openly or subtly in most technical forums out there.

BTW: It's funny that the owner of this site has published a thorough comparison of codecs and declared a winner. You can read that article and learn that x264 is the best codec, but you can't go into the forum and ask what's the best codec. :confused:

[Guest]

If a group of experts is not willing to help non-experts they should simply say so instead of stipulating harsh rules like that, let alone invoking them when they get tired of being asked.
...
Again, maybe this is just an experts forum where non-experts are not welcome. Oh sure, we have a Newbies forum for nothing.

You won't be around long if you take that attitude with the moderating team. Rule 4: respect the moderator(s).

[Gerard V]

Personally, I really like and value Rule 12 as it stands because it is easily understood and followed.

For a counter example, look at any forum that allows subjective debates to rage.

By contrast, Doom9 has a very high percentage of useful, topic-focussed threads that inform and add value.

[comomolo]

Oh sure, we have a Newbies forum for nothing.
Should I understand all the other forums are not allowed for non-experts?

You won't be around long if you take that attitude with the moderating team. Rule 4: respect the moderator(s).
I don't know if this is a threat or something. I just don't see how and when I have failed to respect moderators. I certainly feel not respected by your reply, but there seems to be no rule like "respect everyone". :(

[ammck55]

Which is condescendent and very unpolite.This comment in itself can be construed as condescending and impolite, and quite frankly, splitting hairs and wandering off the original topic. How can pointing to a rules infraction and subsequently offering advice be as you described my comments? The pointer to R12 is made mainly to forestall heated debate and to keep the thread running smoothly, not to penalize the OP.

Several times a year, the five day wait and R12 are brought up. This is old territory for those of us that have been around Doom9's forum for more than a few months, and this latest discussion is likely to have the same impact on rules changes that the previous ones have had.....none. The Rule 12 issue is a dead horse and unlikely to be resurrected by any amount of spurious whipping.

Feel free to interprete my comments however you like, this is the last one I'll make in this thread.

[comomolo]

I think I made a few valid points in my post. I'm sorry that you guys have chosen some over others. I still think the rule is out of place but I do not hope it to go away. I guess it's not too much to ask for a little freedom of speech in a forum called Site Suggestions & Help.

[GodofaGap]

Which is condescendent and very unpolite.
It is not. When you signed up you were expected to have read the rules. A reminder of them is not impolite.

f a group of experts is not willing to help non-experts they should simply say so instead of stipulating harsh rules like that, let alone invoking them when they get tired of being asked. Not every beginner wants to become an expert.
When someone asks what is best, I have no idea what he means. So if he doesn't care enough to. a. read a simple rule and b. pose a question in such a way that I can answer it, why should I even bother wasting my time trying to figure out what he does want to know.

Most of the time a non-expert will feel quite happy with its limited knowledge and will trust more experienced people's opinions. That's exactly why someone may ask "what's best". And s/he's probably not expecting to end up with a firm statement or conclusion, but to read experts' opinions and make up her/his mind.
So why don't ask for opinions, instead of asking for the best way. As I pointed out earlier, the rule is very easy to avoid if you at least take some time to think about what you want to know. Asking a question in any forum is not the first method to get new information: google and the search button come a long way before that.

[Doom9]

For a counter example, look at any forum that allows subjective debates to rage.

By contrast, Doom9 has a very high percentage of useful, topic-focussed threads that inform and add value.As you can see, regular people get it, too.

And as ammck55 pointed out, you can argue all you want up until the point where you get struck to suspension, and the effect on the rules will be .... tada.... nothing

This isn't a board for the clueless to get help.. this is a board for those who are or want to become experts. If you don't want that, you're on the wrong board and there's plenty of other boards that cater to a different audience. You can't combine cutting edge and high knowledge with uninformed beginner's questions.. it just doesn't mix. I've been around longer than any single one of the people who objects to my rules and I've seen my share of boards going bad.. this one hasn't in almost 6 years of existence and has consistently been a leader in many ways (not in ways of making people who ask questions advanced users consider unworthy of a reply).. I do not have one shred of a doubt that a considerable part is due to having such strict forum rules that are aimed to keep this a high quality place, rather than a bulk volume place.

BTW: It's funny that the owner of this site has published a thorough comparison of codecs and declared a winner. You can read that article and learn that x264 is the best codec, but you can't go into the forum and ask what's the best codec.That goes to show just how much you bother to really read up... it's a test with a limited scenario, and x264 is declared the winner given all the parameters of that particular scenario.. plus the results are put in perspective by my mentioning that the results are based on my eyes..

[DarkZell666]

After reading all this, I believe it's all a matter of wording.

I rather like this : I think the idea is to prompt people to ask such a question in a way that will avoid one-sided answers. There's a valid reason for the addition of rule #12 that predates both of us; I've run across a number of posts in the archives that are good examples of why it was introduced. Someone asks "what's best for xxx task," someone answers "yyy is," someone else says "no, zzz is," then yyy guy goes on the defensive for his answer being shot down, then it just gets out of hand. Rule #12 not only helps by preventing the "what's best" question in the first place, it serves as a reminder to posters about answering ojectively.
and this : So why don't ask for opinions, instead of asking for the best way.

Asking what's best gives you a flame war because everyone believe he does it the best way. Asking how people would do it (without carrying a quality judgement on the matter) leads to "oh I didn't know you could do this", and everyone benefits from it.

And about the x264-best-codec-stuff, x264 is indeed very good, but not suitable for every task you would want to do. *Not suitable he says ?* Yep, it's a matter of wording, once again :)

Just my 0.02$, oops € ;)

[Inventive Software]

My $0.02 now.

Where most newbies IMO fall down, is probably in GUI's for CLI tools, and fall down most in the MPEG-4 Encoder GUI's forum because there's simply so much choice. I myself can't choose a particular GUI based on threads there, because I don't have that much time to test each one (GUI) coming through that forum. Each GUI fits different needs. Case in point, eretria-chan has started developing his own GUI, because the others there can't fit his encoding needs. Another one for people to choose.

Choice is good, until the market is saturated.

[trolltuning]

Re a recommended list-I think if you look at the download page that that a recommendation is implied by the inclusion of software there.
If you search this forum you will find that Rule 12 has been discussed to death previously, so therefore some people may be less than patient about discussing it further. If you need a quick recommendation on a program so you can use it immediately without researching the parameters necessary to word a good question that will not violate the rule, I believe videohelp.com does not have an equivalent rule although you might still get scolded for not being more specific-as in 'best in what way?'