[HD-DVD Challenge] MPEG2, VC-1 and H264 with real uncompressed source movie

[foxyshadis]

Now that LCD TVs can be set to any given refresh rate, and the newer HD standards all dictate supporting at least 24p in addition to region-specific ones, I think the whole debate is rapidly becoming moot. I can already buy NTSC/PAL TVs very cheaply, and likely soon all will be able to use both.

[benwaggoner]

4) IMO HD-DVD camp use certainely pre-process for the master (denoising and perhaps sharpening) for make "better visual" encoding.
Finally got around to coming here after a few weeks :).

No, the VC-1 encoding tool used for virtually all HD DVD titles doesn't do any kinds of processing like that. There is an optional denoise filter, but it isn't significantly used with HD DVD. And there's no sharpening filter at all.

I realize most folks here aren't used to looking at good D5 masters, but HD DVD titles are the closest consumers have ever gotten.

So, if it looks sharp, it's because the master was sharp :).

[IgorC]

Related topic. http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=908902#post908902

It is about new metrics. Maybe it's good as SSIM.

[trbarry]

Whatever happened to this effort? Early results seemed to suggest X264 was a tiny bit better than VC1 and both were a lot better than MPEG-2. But now all results are missing from the first page and there's been no activivity for a month or so.

Did everybody lose interest?

- Tom

[McCrash]

I think the interest is still there but it shifted towards authoring issues and HD-DVD compliance since whatever result come from x264 or wme we are unable to use it in hd-dvd assets.

From a non professional point a view, i would say avc kicks ass but vc1 requires less horsepower, isn't ?

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=119392

[vsv]

How about to compare mpeg2/avc/vc1 encoded in same tool as CineVision vs x264 (pro tool vs free encoder) ?

[Sagittaire]

Well perhaps a new big comparison for the holiday:
- AVC from Elecard/Mainconcept, x264 and other professional encoder
- VC1 from Elecard/Mainconcept and MS PEP
- MPEG2 from Elecard/Mainconcept, Libavcodec and HCEnc

and with real 1080p23.976 HDDVD compliant stream.

[CruNcher]

There's also a new Microsoft Encoder (after their aquire of iview)
http://www.microsoft.com/expression/products/overview.aspx?key=encoder
it's part of the Expression Media, i had no time yet to look @ it but it seemes just to be another dshow gui (future interface design, skinned Vista styleish hehe) with direct api connection to the current wmv sdk so nothing new (at least nothing that would increase speed of encoding it seams for the normal prosumer/consumer q the moment) except those silverlight features, would be cool to compare silverlight streaming video vs flash streaming video in terms of cpu utilization accelerated/non acellerated in the accellerated scenario silverlight would win without any doubt, but whats about the non accellerated scenario hehe, also interesting to test vs the new Apple Google/Youtube H.264 videos and if they get accellerated,sorry for going a little oftop to much testing stuff in my head ;).

[^_^x]

how 'bout to change the restrictions
1. use the same avs source
2. max bitrate 700 (what!!!)
3. allow all optimal maximum setting of your codec have
4. no external filtering

hmm, yaps it is...

[MarcioAB]

and with real 1080p23.976 HDDVD compliant stream.

Parallel question: Will this 24p fps stream be stored in a container at the same 24p fps or will it be telecine flagged for 25 or 30 fps ?

If stored in the container as 24p fps will it be compliant with HDDVD specs ?

Thank you

[benwaggoner]

In order to stop us arguing about spec issues, does anyone have acccess to the Sonic HD DVD muxer? If so, we can agree on peak and average data rate, and just make the contest about who can make the best looking compliant stream that'll mux.

As for the container question, best we submit elementary streams using the 59.94 flagging.

Our encoder doesn't use .avs directly, but we can use GraphEdit to dump a raw .yuv from that, so we'd be getting the same pixels.

[benwaggoner]

There's also a new Microsoft Encoder (after their aquire of iview)
http://www.microsoft.com/expression/products/overview.aspx?key=encoder
it's part of the Expression Media, i had no time yet to look @ it but it seemes just to be another dshow gui (future interface design, skinned Vista styleish hehe) with direct api connection to the current wmv sdk so nothing new (at least nothing that would increase speed of encoding it seams for the normal prosumer/consumer q the moment) except those silverlight features, would be cool to compare silverlight streaming video vs flash streaming video in terms of cpu utilization accelerated/non acellerated in the accellerated scenario silverlight would win without any doubt, but whats about the non accellerated scenario hehe, also interesting to test vs the new Apple Google/Youtube H.264 videos and if they get accellerated,sorry for going a little oftop to much testing stuff in my head ;).
Wow, that was a long sentence!

Yes, Expression Media Encdoder is based on the Format SDK 11, like other commercial tools. Although it has other useful new features, like:

Support for .mov and .mpg source files
A better deinterlacer and scaler (not in the beta)
Lots of great Silverlight integration, enabling stuff like graphical thumbnail navigation to be built while compressing.


It won't do anything relevant to HD DVD, though. It's very focused on Silverlight.

[R3Z]

Wow, that was a long sentence!

Yes, Expression Media Encdoder is based on the Format SDK 11, like other commercial tools. Although it has other useful new features, like:

Support for .mov and .mpg source files
A better deinterlacer and scaler (not in the beta)
Lots of great Silverlight integration, enabling stuff like graphical thumbnail navigation to be built while compressing.


It won't do anything relevant to HD DVD, though. It's very focused on Silverlight.

Encoding features and speed improvements are made to codecs like x264 and xvid every other week. Politely i ask why is it that MS are so lazy in updating and improving their own codec ? Its bad enough the awful tools available to end users (note not multi billion dollar companies).

[vsv]

how 'bout to change the restrictions
1. use the same avs source
2. max bitrate 700 (what!!!)
3. allow all optimal maximum setting of your codec have
4. no external filtering

hmm, yaps it is...

max bitrate 700 for [HD-DVD Challenge] ? :)

[MarcioAB]

As for the container question, best we submit elementary streams using the 59.94 flagging.

Just to double check my understanding: Encode 24p source material in a 24p elementary stream and store it into an EVO container with a flag that will inform to old devices (NTSC and PAL) to playback this stream at 60i and modern devices to playback at 24p ?
Is that the correct understanding ?

Thank you

Is there still too many people out there with NTSC and PAL devices ( players and crt-TVs ) ?

[Sagittaire]

In order to stop us arguing about spec issues, does anyone have acccess to the Sonic HD DVD muxer? If so, we can agree on peak and average data rate, and just make the contest about who can make the best looking compliant stream that'll mux.


Yes, good idea. I can make the mux. Be carefull: you must use the direct avs source without pre-process (dithering or denoising for example). You can use all the advanced encoding way like segment encoding, adaptative quantisation, HVS inter/intra optimisation.


Our encoder doesn't use .avs directly, but we can use GraphEdit to dump a raw .yuv from that, so we'd be getting the same pixels.

Interessing. I can make that with all the other encoder?

[benwaggoner]

Encoding features and speed improvements are made to codecs like x264 and xvid every other week. Politely i ask why is it that MS are so lazy in updating and improving their own codec ? Its bad enough the awful tools available to end users (note not multi billion dollar companies).
We've got full-time teams working on both quality and performance optimization. But since there are so many decoders out there that we need to maintain backwards compatibility with, we do a long test cycle for each release. This is also helpful, since we can engineer big new features that touch lots of the codec pipeline, and won't produce good results in intermediate forms.

We did our most recent public codec release last fall, and we're working with a number of software vendors on integrating our new VC-1 SDK.

And of course we've done many PEP releases to the studios in that time frame. But again, those were tuned to HD optical disc needs, and we didn't test those iterations against traditional WMV Main Proifle targets.

As for awful tools, what do you mean? There are many dozens of products that incorporate .WMV encoding - there's got to be at least one that works for you.

[benwaggoner]

Just to double check my understanding: Encode 24p source material in a 24p elementary stream and store it into an EVO container with a flag that will inform to old devices (NTSC and PAL) to playback this stream at 60i and modern devices to playback at 24p ?
Is that the correct understanding ?

Actually, the 60i flagging is in the VC-1 bitstream.

Basically, we encode the 24 unique frames per second as normal, but add "judder" to the timing of the frames so that there go along a 60 Hz clock. Which is then ignored by progressive players :).

[benwaggoner]

Yes, good idea. I can make the mux. Be carefull: you must use the direct avs source without pre-process (dithering or denoising for example). You can use all the advanced encoding way like segment encoding, adaptative quantisation, HVS inter/intra optimisation.
I don't know how that can be enforced - what if the encoder has an integrated debanding/denoising filter?

FWIW, I should be getting a drive with the original high bit rate source for Elephant's Dream. Maybe I could put a .yuv.zip of it up via a .torrent

Interessing. I can make that with all the other encoder?
I think that all professional encoders in this market can read a .yuv source file. Anyone doing a test with a tool that can't?

It's also easy to pipe a .yuv into an IYUV .avi file via GraphEdit.

[MarcioAB]

I don't know how that can be enforced

What if the avs script used by each encode be jointly published with the results as a minimun ? Still dependent of trust, but ...

IMO, for the encode inside features as well as usage knowledge skills (person/team/corporation level), it should be used at it's limit - no restriction at all, unless the ones to comply with HD-DVD playback on standard stand alone players (blu-ray or hd-dvd optical media).

[Golgot13]

Hi all,

a little post since a long time:

Now I can speak about VC1 (from PEP) and H264 (from x264 or others) because the MS's NDA finished.

- First MS don't develop anymore VC1 professional encoder (PEP is remplaced by Sonic PSE or VC1 encoder from Corel, ?) .

- Second, H264 is better than VC1. H264 with CABAC option at same bitrate is better up to 35% than VC1.

At NAB, lot of people saw H264 encoder like Harmonic encoder for DTV (1920x1080 at 6-8Mbps!!!).
I hope to see soon Ambarella code integrate on H264 software or hardware encoder .
All TV broadcaster use and will use it (Canal+ HD, Sky HD, NTV HD,...), the Olympic Game 2008 in Beijing will shown it.


- Last, I don't understand HD DVD format: it don't support 25fps ( 50Hz: 50i and 25p ). It's a format for USA and Japan ???
Today lot of Live, TV show, ... are in HD 50Hz (for european TV Broadcast) and it can put only on BD but not on HD DVD.
Some video editors and studios wait the 50Hz support. HD DVD don't like european ???




You will see when the challenge will release than H264 is the best codec at low bitrate: possible to make BD or HD DVD on DVD disc
(in Japan there is some HD DVD in H264 and HD DVD on DVD disc).





Regards,


Golgot13

[drmpeg]

@Golgot13

A couple of notes.

1) The Harmonic Electra 7000 is based on the Ambarella single chip encoder. In fact, all the big hardware encoder companies are using Ambarella including Tandberg and Modulus (now Motorola).

2) 25 fps is allowed in the HD-DVD specification. There's just no players that support 25 fps.

Ron

[Sagittaire]

@Golgot13

25 fps is allowed in the HD-DVD specification. There's just no players that support 25 fps.

Ron

HDDVD PAL doesn't work on XboX 360 + addon ... ?

[benwaggoner]

Hi all,

a little post since a long time:

Now I can speak about VC1 (from PEP) and H264 (from x264 or others) because the MS's NDA finished.

- First MS don't develop anymore VC1 professional encoder (PEP is remplaced by Sonic PSE or VC1 encoder from Corel, ?).
Actually, Sonic's CineVision PSE is a rebranded and enhanced version of PEP we're doing in collaboration with Sonic. We're still doing all the codec development for it.

- Second, H264 is better than VC1. H264 with CABAC option at same bitrate is better up to 35% than VC1.
Them's fighting words, buddy! Let's agree on some source and a scenario, and let's see you match my VC-1 quality at 35% lower bitrate :).

[benwaggoner]

What if the avs script used by each encode be jointly published with the results as a minimun ? Still dependent of trust, but ...

IMO, for the encode inside features as well as usage knowledge skills (person/team/corporation level), it should be used at it's limit - no restriction at all, unless the ones to comply with HD-DVD playback on standard stand alone players (blu-ray or hd-dvd optical media).
Maybe we should just call it a "best looking video that muxes, wins" and allow whatever preprocessing people want to apply, since we all have access to the source anyway for comparison so it's not like someone can get away with using a low-pass filter. And understanding in the end it's going to be a subjective judgement, with people arguing endlessly about which tradeoffs are better.

We should define an appropriate ABR and PBR for the scenario, of course. 10 ABR, 25 PBR?

[Golgot13]

@Golgot13

A couple of notes.

1) The Harmonic Electra 7000 is based on the Ambarella single chip encoder. In fact, all the big hardware encoder companies are using Ambarella including Tandberg and Modulus (now Motorola).


Yes, I know now but Harmonic use the Ambarella since the beginning....


2) 25 fps is allowed in the HD-DVD specification. There's just no players that support 25 fps.



Yes, but after more than one year, the 25fps is not support by hardware HD DVD player (there is only Toshiba,
LG bistandard player is not HDDVD...). After 3 meeting of DVD Forum, the 25fps is not approuved !!!!!
(because they are not agree with HD DVD 25fps test disc....).
And the HD DVD format put on european market HD DVD player which don't support HD in 25fps !!!!!

To my mind today, HD DVD is not a european standard and it is not for european market
(we can not have HD DVD from HD european program like documentary or live shoot in 25fps).



About quality, we will see when this thread will release the test (why this thread si not finish, MS don't want to give tool for test ??? !!!).
And I don't see a test of VC1 codec on MSU annual test !!!!

For Sagitaire, yes X360 support 25fps like all software player.

For MS, lot of companies (like the company where I work) use VC1 because the studio think it's the best codec.
(it's like than Dolby Digital audio codec on DVD, MPEG2 Multichannel is better...).
I hope the european union investigation will show some lobby and bad thing on some format (25fps in HD DVD,...).




Golgot13

[Golgot13]

Them's fighting words, buddy!

But this thread is for a fighting challenge between the two last best codec (H264, first, and VC1).


Let's agree on some source and a scenario, and let's see you match my VC-1 quality at 35% lower bitrate :).

Today with all H264 professional encoder, encoded file in H264 is better than the same video encoded in VC1.
If Microsoft can give a source file and the VC1 encoded file of this source, we will make a little challenge between only H264 and VC1.
We will start bitrate at 6Mbps (VC1 will sleep up to 12Mbps...).

I listen there is a CinemaCraft encoder in H264 for HDDVD and BD, CC-HDe, which can make more than 2 pass....
I think it is the VC1 killer software.



Golgot13

[MarcioAB]

... in the end it's going to be a subjective judgement ...Yes. What about the use of PSNR as "the judge", like it was in the past here. Mux + PSNR

[MarcioAB]

... the 25fps is not support by hardware HD DVD player ...
What happen when you insert a 25 fps in one of those players ?
Thank you.

[Golgot13]

What happen when you insert a 25 fps in one of those players ?
Thank you.

HD DVD is ejected and we have a message that "disc don't supported".
The chipset (Broadcom, imposed after by MS) inside can support 25fps.

Last, all HD DVD hardware player must have Windows CE inside to support well iHD or HDi
(LG bi-format don't have WinCE....), it is nice for the compatibility but I'm not sure
that chinese company will make quickly cheap HD DVD player (nice the SDK and motherboard
with Broadcom chipset and WinCE).

Why the BD can support the 25fps video on all player and not the HD DVD.
The HD DVD was the first format on market, so why it was not the first format which
support 25 fps and all option of "HD DVD White Book".... :mad::mad::mad:

Today the european market is the first for new HDDVD titles release or announced,
but it will stop by the non support of 25fps framerate!!!!



Golgot13

[benwaggoner]

Yes. What about the use of PSNR as "the judge", like it was in the past here. Mux + PSNR
PSNR is certainly something well worth looking at in a test, but I'm not sold on PSNR as a definitive demonstration of video quality. I certainly would tune my VC-1 encodes differently depending on if I wanted a good PSNR or if I wanted it to perceptually look good.

[benwaggoner]

Last, all HD DVD hardware player must have Windows CE inside to support well iHD or HDi
(LG bi-format don't have WinCE....), it is nice for the compatibility but I'm not sure that chinese company will make quickly cheap HD DVD player (nice the SDK and motherboard with Broadcom chipset and WinCE).
The Toshiba A1 is Linux based and runs HDi just fine.

[benwaggoner]

But this thread is for a fighting challenge between the two last best codec (H264, first, and VC1).

[QUOTE]Today with all H264 professional encoder, encoded file in H264 is better than the same video encoded in VC1.
Which VC-1 implementation? Used how? Our current beta? We all know here that there are too many variables in compression to make such a blanket statement.

If Microsoft can give a source file and the VC1 encoded file of this source, we will make a little challenge between only H264 and VC1.
Well, how about the Elephant's Dream footage. I've been reluctant to provide content directly because if VC-1 wins people will just say we cherrypicked :).

We will start bitrate at 6Mbps (VC1 will sleep up to 12Mbps...).
I don't follow you on "sleeping." I've made 2 Mbps and 10 Mbps versions of Elephant's Dream already, and the 10 Mbps looks pretty spectacular in my opinon, and that's with our year-old codec.

I listen there is a CinemaCraft encoder in H264 for HDDVD and BD, CC-HDe, which can make more than 2 pass....
I think it is the VC1 killer software.
It isn't. VC-1 is also capable of multipass encoding with PEP.

[kolak]

Cinemacraft CC-HDe is a really powerful piece of 4.5MB (that is the size) software:)
It already (in beta version) offers comparable, if not the best PQ, from all AVC HD DVD/Blu-ray compatible encoders.
The speed is awesome in comparison to other h.264 encoders (PEP is ridiculously slow), has amazing filtering options and I can bet that in few months it will become main encoder for all big studios.
Cinemacraft is continuing to provide industry with state of the art encoders and will keep leader position also for AVC encoding (as long as other company won't make better encoder:)).

Ben- what about PEP speed?
Not many studios can afford for 16 Blade Servers to have still not real time encoding (or real time- I don't know that).
CC-DHe is 1.5 slower than realtime on one PC even with all filtering turned on:)

If you want make real comaprision you shouldn't be the person who does VC-1 encoding- it should be some compressionist, who uses PEP, but not you (you know to much):)
You don't want to do all VC-1 encoding in the World- do you?:)

ps. it does 99 passes (if it maters):)

[benwaggoner]

Ben- what about PEP speed?
Not many studios can afford for 16 Blade Servers to have still not real time encoding (or real time- I don't know that).
The blade systems are mainly there for super high quality encoding. A workstation can do HD in faster than realtime with a Tarari board and our latest optimizations.

If you want make real comaprision you shouldn't be the person who does VC-1 encoding- it should be some compressionist, who uses PEP, but not you (you know to much):)
You don't want to do all VC-1 encoding in the World- do you?:)
You have no idea how much I want to spend more time encoding :). Although I'm certainly not the best VC-1 operator here at Microsoft - there's at least 4-5 better than I am.

ps. it does 99 passes (if it maters):)
PEP doesn't have any explicit maximum number of passes either.

[kolak]

The blade systems are mainly there for super high quality encoding.

Other words- for all proper realeses, what means for all studios which don't want wait week for encoding:)


A workstation can do HD in faster than realtime with a Tarari board and our latest optimizations.

That is a different encoding and story.


At this moment good AVC implementation can at least match PEP quality, but AVC encoding takes (strangely) less time.
It's not only about how good quality is, but also about real usage of the encoder.

[benwaggoner]

Other words- for all proper realeses, what means for all studios which don't want wait week for encoding:)
VC-1 is used in the majority of HD optical discs! The studios are certainly getting something they want to use there. We've had feedback from many studios who've been given demos of the CinemaCraft encoder, and while they like many features of it, still feel they're able to get better titles done with the current version of PEP, and they're already previewing the next version...

At this moment good AVC implementation can at least match PEP quality, but AVC encoding takes (strangely) less time.
It's not only about how good quality is, but also about real usage of the encoder.
How much hands-on time with PEP have you had, and what version?

[kolak]

How much hands-on time with PEP have you had, and what version?

I know that most big studios still use PEP.

Not much at all and it was old version.
This what I judge are current releases with VC-1.
They look good, but in the same time my last tests showed that with a good master I can have the same visual quality with AVC. Latest grain optimisations in AVC solved problems with flatting the grain.
I would go for PEP, but the speed makes it unusable.
Some engineers from Japanese company (not Cinemacraft, but they work close with MS) said opposite: CC-HDe seams to be slightly better than PEP.
I'm waiting for updates for CC-HDe and I think at the end of the year CC-HDe will become the main encoder:)

I would be happy to check latest PEP version:)

[Sagittaire]

1) pep use certainely update stat like x264 for example and virtualy unlimited number of pass.

2) I think that good AVC implementation will make really better result than good VC1 implementation but only for high quantisation scenario ("low bitrate"). For low quantisation encoding like HDDVD30 scenario ("high bitrate"), it's really more complicated. Anyway HVS tuning for VC1 in "high bitrate" situation seem really advanced ...

3)I will remake this complete test soon

[skal]

If Microsoft can give a source file and the VC1 encoded file of this source, we will make a little challenge between only H264 and VC1.


Very good idea. Previous attempt got swamped miserably because of some nitpicking around obscure Top-Zeekret specs or something. So why not: MS releases a VC1 encode, point to some source, and someone does a h264 encode with same specs, whatever they are.

Skal
(and not Elephant Dream, please. Input is definitely too clean)

[zambelli]

About quality, we will see when this thread will release the test (why this thread si not finish, MS don't want to give tool for test ??? !!!).
I'm puzzled by this remark. Are you implying Microsoft somehow killed this thread's original challenge? :confused:
And I don't see a test of VC1 codec on MSU annual test !!!!

Are you referring to http://compression.ru/video/codec_comparison/call_for_codecs_07.html ? That's their decision. I've no idea why they didn't expand the codec comparison to MPEG-4 ASP, VP7 and VC-1 codecs at least, but they're the ones spending time and effort on doing the comparison - so it's entirely and rightfully their call to make.

[zambelli]

2) I think that good AVC implementation will make really better result than good VC1 implementation but only for high quantisation scenario ("low bitrate"). For low quantisation encoding like HDDVD30 scenario ("high bitrate"), it's really more complicated. Anyway HVS tuning for VC1 in "high bitrate" situation seem really advanced ...
This is something I've been saying about the codec shootouts for years: context matters and results from one scenario can't and shouldn't be extrapolated to represent results for all scenarios. In other words, it's a huge mistake to compare codecs for i.e. DVD backup, and then interpret those results as being the same for HD-DVD/BD encoding. They're vastly different scenarios with completely different goals - and thus often 2 codecs can prove to be equally valuable but in different scenarios.

Very good idea. Previous attempt got swamped miserably because of some nitpicking around obscure Top-Zeekret specs or something. So why not: MS releases a VC1 encode, point to some source, and someone does a h264 encode with same specs, whatever they are.
I see a huge potential there for Microsoft getting accused of skewing the source in favor of VC-1. As long as everyone agrees they're OK with Microsoft picking the content, I think we can start looking into the possibility of getting some content cleared for this sort of usage.

(and not Elephant Dream, please. Input is definitely too clean)
Agreed, though I've found that it can be made significantly more challenging by artificially adding grain (i.e. using AddGrain plugin for Avisynth). However, its biggest problem is not that it's clean, but that it only contains 2-3 scenes that are really challenging - the rest is piece of cake.

[MarcioAB]

... depending on if I wanted a good PSNR or if I wanted it to perceptually look good.Who will be the person to classify the "perceptually look" ?

Film is art. Codecs are just tools to make possible such art get us.
I guess the artist will consider the best codec as the one that will minimally distort his work. We are technicians. Who are we to say the result became "perceptually look good".

I guess PSNR could be used to measure how much the encoded became distant from the (art) source.

Not that I want to complicate, but a very clear criteria to compare is important ... before begin.

[Golgot13]

Are you referring to http://compression.ru/video/codec_comparison/call_for_codecs_07.html ? That's their decision. I've no idea why they didn't expand the codec comparison to MPEG-4 ASP, VP7 and VC-1 codecs at least, but they're the ones spending time and effort on doing the comparison - so it's entirely and rightfully their call to make.

Because some company don't want to lost on this comparaison (like some company with H264, first in 2005).
MSU (russian university) accept alll codec and project from all developper....

To benwaggoner, I understand that Mr Kolak have the CC-HDe turnkey, so we can do a little challenge
with a encoded file from you (choose what you want : 3min is enough) and a encoded file of same video from Kolak.
And you speak about PEP version, but I understand that lot of companies, which need your software, had not never received
(I saw some post of Kolak on MS thread, may be the same on this thread).
You (MS video staff) give lot of council at professional users but when the business start we never see you again
(if we don't have movie like "Miami Vice").
For first generation of Toshiba player with Linux inside (best player to my mind), it was not with WinCE/Broadcom SDK
because it is available since this year..... (first generation appear last year...)


And why Ben or Zambelli don't answer about 25fps (because you're in USA and you don't need it ???).
It's really a bad problem for HD DVD standard, I understand that some european companies change the framerate
of video to make HD DVD titles !!!!!!!
About other avantage of BD, the HDDVD support 23.976fps but BD support 23.976fps AND 24fps (shoot directly from movie !!!!).


Last to my mind, the best codec is H264, but VC1 is a good codec for video on old CPU:
H264 need lot of CPU resource (some video from Sagitaire need more than my little P4 3.2GHz) than VC1.
But all computer since this year (with or without last graphic card) are ready for H264.



Golgot13

[skal]

Who will be the person to classify the "perceptually look" ?

I guess PSNR could be used to measure how much the encoded became distant from the (art) source.

Not that I want to complicate, but a very clear criteria to compare is important ... before begin.

agreed, especially at high or ultra-high bitrate. It's not like comparing 56kbps pureed pixel soup, where PSNR is just telling how much post-processing you didn't use. At high bitrate, PSNR is at what you expect: fidelity. Otherwise, i'll put a Beyonce sliceshow in the middle of Elephant Dream, because you know, PSNR matters less than "perceptual look".and Beyonce has quite some of the latter.

[vsv]

Producer Richard J. Casey (www.rbfilms.com) interested in best codec and possible can provide source for test.
Ask him in this tread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=868185

and read also another tread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10950912&&#post10950912

TOSHIBA and MS, STOP discrimination of EU!
Release firmware update for HDDVD players to support 25FPS!!!

[arfster]

Yes. What about the use of PSNR as "the judge", like it was in the past here. Mux + PSNR

SSIM any day, imo. MSU did a study a while back, showed it correlates best to visual quality.

[zambelli]

Because some company don't want to lost on this comparaison (like some company with H264, first in 2005).
MSU (russian university) accept alll codec and project from all developper....
All they have to do is ask. To the best of my knowledge, MSU never asked Microsoft codec team for VC-1 encoding tools or advice. How can we participate in something we are not invited to?
You (MS video staff) give lot of council at professional users but when the business start we never see you again
(if we don't have movie like "Miami Vice").
There's only 5 people on the VC-1 codec deployment team at Microsoft. Trust me when I say that our hands are full and we're doing our best to help out everybody who asks for help.
And why Ben or Zambelli don't answer about 25fps (because you're in USA and you don't need it ???).
Because Ben and I didn't write the HD-DVD spec and we don't manufacture the player units. We're here to discuss codecs. Your question is more suitable for AVS Forum's Industry Insiders (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=851221) thread.
It's really a bad problem for HD DVD standard, I understand that some european companies change the framerate of video to make HD DVD titles !!!!!!!
That doesn't seem any worse than PAL DVDs speeding up 24fps film to 25 fps for PAL playback. This is the same principal in reverse. Not that I agree with it... Just saying it's nothing new.

[zambelli]

Producer Richard J. Casey (www.rbfilms.com) interested in best codec and possible can provide source for test.
Even though his company is producing the HDDVD/BD releases it doesn't mean he can freely share the sources.

If there's going to be a codec shootout using a "real" film source, that source will need to be either cleared for free distribution to everybody or the "contestents" will need to sign some sort of agreement. I can't see a middle option. Studios are highly protective of their content sources.

[kolak]

That doesn't seem any worse than PAL DVDs speeding up 24fps film to 25 fps for PAL playback. This is the same principal in reverse. Not that I agree with it... Just saying it's nothing new.

Really?
There are no good HD converters at the moment at all.
5 units in the world of new Alchemist Ph.C-HD, which is even not fully functional yet. Other solution do the job, but the quality is not really good.
Most of the masters in Europe are 50i and there is a big problem with good HD 50i to 60i conversion.