Burning on DL Disks

[bongoman31]

Back to one of Mr. Panda's original statements, about Shrink not working for DL's; I've found it does excellent. You might ask why would you use Shrink for DL's. I saved a lot of back-ups as data, ripped with DVD Decrypter in file mode. These were then easy to keep on pairs of cheap 4.7 discs. (I was waiting for the price of DL discs to come down.) Shrink is an excellent way to transform those files into one ISO file, for burning onto DL. Of course I choose "No compression" when having Shrink create the ISO; Shrink then warns that the resulting file will be too large (it assumes you're using 4.7 disc), but, it says "are you sure you want to continue?" to which I always say yes, and it burns with DVD Decrypter. Works like a charm.

[zacoz]

It was my understanding that Shrink doesn't know how to correctly place the Layer Break when building an ISO from files. I believe you may have been very very lucky or will find problems when you try to actually play these DL discs.

You'd be better served simply using the build mode of ImgBurn (http://www.imgburn.com/) which will correctly place the Layer Break (and always use +R DL discs - Verbatims being the [my] preference).

[r0lZ]

I agree. Shrink is extremely dangerous to burn directly or via an ISO to DL, as it doesn't know how to handle the layer break. (In fact, it knows nothing about the LB.)
Some standalone players may accept an illegal LB without problem, but they are very rare.
Anyway, creating the ISO or burning directly with ImgBurn is easy, perfectly safe, and it's faster! So, DO NOT USE SHRINK FOR BURNING DOUBLE LAYER DISCS!

[ooze48]

Hello. This is my first post...

This has been a great thread. I was hoping to do a sanity check to ensure I understand what my options are at this point for backing up single and dual layer DVDs.

As a quick background, I've been backing up single layer DVD+R's for about 2 years via DVD Shrink and DVD Decrypter. Once DVD Decrypter was no longer updated I noticed I couldn't backup (rip) Sony DVDs so I just didn't do Sony for the past few months. I want to be able to handle ARccOS and RipGuard so it's time for me to figure out how.

For single layer, I just started using DVDFab Decrypter to rip the files to the HD then used DVD Shrink and DVD Decrypter as usual to finish the job. Is this an effecient method or should I be looking at a different way to backup single layer?

BTW, I also tried RipIt4Me in wizard mode. Although it was able to backup the single layer DVD successfully, it was different somehow. When I fired up DVD Shrink after cleaning the files via FixVTS, DVD Shrink was displaying that the current data would not fit on 1 DVD. The thing was that DVD Shrink was already preset to using the lowest compression possible for the main movie and extras. I was able to free up space by getting rid of the audio I didn't need (like french) but the main movie still ended up getting compressed by something like 50%. The quality loss is noticable in some spots when I watch the movie. Anyway, my point is that this didn't seem like the best method of doing single layer backups (assuming I used the tools correctly).

For dual layer, I used DVDFab Decrypter to rip the files to the HD then IMGBurn to burn the files to disk. Is this an effecient method or should I be looking at a different way to backup dual layer?

BTW, I've been using Verbatim for all my single layer backups over the past couple years so decided to also use it (2.4x DVD+R DL) for my DL backups.

I really appreciate someone filling me in on whether I'm doing things using the best (easiest and most reliable) methods available today or not.

Thanks!

[ooze48]

Looks like I may have spoken too soon regarding the DL section of my previous post. Ugh.

The movie I used to test both scenarios in my last post was Underworld Evolution.

The single layer backup works fine but the DL backup gets very choppy right after the layer break when I watch it on my stand alone player (Toshiba SD-4800). I've been using this player for years to watch both the DVDs I buy and the single layer backups I've been making. It almost never has a problem reading either type of DVD.

I then watched the DL in my girlfriends laptop, the one used to create the DL. It gets very choppy after the layer break just as it does on my stand alone player.

I then watched the DL using the external DVD burner (Plextor PX-708UF) I used to created the single layer DVD (mentioned in my previous post) and there was no choppiness after the layer break. In fact, there was no pause for the layer break using that DVD burner to view the DL backup on the computer.

So basically it plays after the layer break on my computer with the single layer Plextor burner but not in my stand alone player or the DL burner used to create the DL backup.

Does anyone have an idea of what the problem might be?

Thanks much.

[r0lZ]

There is less reflectivity on the second layer, and some (especially old) players have problems.
Your media are fine, and ImgBurn is the best tool to burn DL-DVDs. You need a better standalone player, with good support for DL DVD+R. Sorry. ;)

[ooze48]

Yikes, I certainly wasn't hoping for a solution like that. :scared:

Should I be concerned that the DL backup won't play correctly in the burner that created it?

I got my girlfriend a Gateway MX6930 (http://www.gateway.com/home/products/ret/ret_MX6930.shtml) from bestbuy because it was a great price for the specs considering how the machine would be used. Device Manager states its a Philips DVD+-RW SDVD8820 drive.

I'm trying to burn it again using DVDFab Decrypter -> IMGBurn. IMGBurn had 4 options to pick from when selecting the layer break. Two of them were for 50/50 so I picked the first one. This time I'm trying the second one.

Is there any other way to burn a DL DVD+R from the HD or ISO besides IMGBurn?

Thanks!

[setarip_old]

@ooze48

Hi!

You might try running a DVD/CD cleaning disc on your Toshiba standalone player. Maxell makes one that sells for about $10US...

[CWR03]

Is there any other way to burn a DL DVD+R from the HD or ISO besides IMGBurn?
Most burning softwares can burn ripped DVD-DL files from the hard drive, whether they're ripped as files or as a single .ISO, but ImgBurn is the best in either case. Most other programs won't set the layer break properly. RipIt4Me in .ISO mode and burning with ImgBurn is my preferred way of backing up DL, which hasn't failed yet.

[ooze48]

You might try running a DVD/CD cleaning disc on your Toshiba standalone player. Maxell makes one that sells for about $10US...

Thanks. I ordered the maxell cleaning disc and will run it through my standalone player when it arrives.

There are (2) 50/50 layer breaks displayed by IMGBurn for Underworld Evolution. I chose the first one for the DL DVD backup I'm having problems with.

I recreated my DVD backup using the 2nd 50/50 layer break this time and now the DVD plays in my standalone player and my girlfriends notebook (the one used to create the backup) without any problems. I'm thinking that either I had a bad DVD blank the first time or that 1st 50/50 layer break I chose was the problem.

In any event, it's working for now. Hopefully I don't have to burn multiple DL backups each time to find the correct layer break. :)

[CWR03]

In another thread, LUK mentioned choosing the last file on the list that had a 50/50 split. I don't know if that's what you should always use, but it looks like it may be.

[r0lZ]

There is no necessity to use a LB near the 50/50 split. Doing so makes the burn faster, and less data are written near the outer edge of the DVD (on a +R only!)
That's good reasons, but the choice should always be made so that the pause is less noticeable, and that depends on the content of the movie. If you really don't care of the pause or several cells are equivalent in term of pause, then select the nearest of the 50/50 split.

[morph166955]

just to add my .02 in...

Ive been burning dual layers VERY successfully now for a little under a year. the trick is to get the right burner and the right media. I started with a 2.4x LiteOn drive, what a horror story that was in terms of coastering and compatibility issues. I'm still reburning discs made from that drive so i can read em in other things. I then got a 4x TSST (samsung?) drive which i used very successfully for 6 months, maybe one coaster in 50 if that? Recently i sold that to my dad (who uses it successfully still) and got an NEC AD-7170A and that thing is by far the best burner I have had to date. ive done 6x burns with no issue (it wont let me do 8x although its an 8x drive and i have 8x discs but im good at 6x or 4x for now). the nec drive was bought just before xmas and ive already done ~30 perfect DL discs with it, as well as probably a dozen SL and about the same for CD's and it hasnt coasterd ANYTHING yet from any disc type. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16827152076 there it is on new egg for $30 + s/h...at that price you cant go wrong. I believe there is also a white and a beige version for those who dont want black. Ive burned data discs for backup of my files as well as dvd's to watch and I must say this drive impresed me thus far. In fact, we've (my fathers computer company which i handle stuff like this for) begun to use the NEC burner along with msys/mingw, 7zip, rar and cdimage to handle nightly backups for his clients who have smaller setups to backup then a tape system is worth (doing the numbers, ~$30 for the drive plus ~25 cents a disk it would take damn close to 15 years for them to reach the same cost as a higher end tape drive with tapes and those tapes would have to get replaced far more frequently then every 15 years). using 7zip weve gotten around a 50% compression ratio and were then spliting into rar files and adding ~5% error correction to the files for added error correctability just in case a critical disk gets scratched up really good.

The other trick is the media. Ive used "brand-x", ive used memorex, and now i use verbatim. For the record, I have NEVER coastered a verbatim disc (of any type), and i have NEVER had a compatiblity issue with it in ANY drive (including some REALLY OLD dvd drives and players). In fact, Ive switched all my blank media to verbatim just because of this. Im more content spending a few extra dollars on the media knowing i wont be throwing them out or pulling my hair out in 6 months trying to find something to read it.

As for software. I use DVDShrink 3.2 across the board for creating my iso image (i only use dvddecrypter if the disc has some crazy copy protection or something else on it that dvdshrink freaks out about). Tried and true, it works. Only recently have I encountered discs that have more advanced copy protection but DVDShrink generally works flawlessly. Its key to create the iso and then burn it rather then have DVDShrink OR DVDDecrypter burn directly. I then put it into Nero 7 Ultra (im using 7.5.9.0 now) and burn it to the disc. I let nero figure out where to do the split for the dual layers. The one big thing to remember about nero is to KEEP IT UPDATED! I dont think i can stress this enough. I had 7.5.1.1 on one of my computers that constantly threw errors and took forever to load (it was maybe 3 months old of an install). I updated it to 7.5.9.0 and it worked like a charm. If you want to inspect the disc image before burning, either use poweriso or something like that which can mount the iso, or use the program I use called DAEMON Tools (im on version 3.47). I have found daemon tools works flawlessly as well as capable of reading virtually every image type i throw at it where as nero and poweriso and the others have been more quirky and less capable of reading some more odd file types.

I know most of that was said in past threads, but I figured another supporting opinion couldn't hurt for those out there just getting into burning DVD's and/or DualLayers.

If anyone has any questions about my setup, either post it here or if you want to ask a "questionable" question feel free to PM me and Ill reply (assuming that my answer doesnt completely violate forum rules since I wont do that.)

[r0lZ]

I have also a good NEC (ND3520) and use also Verbatim. No problem so far.

However, I would suggest NOT using DVD Shrink or DVD Decrypter to burn or create the ISOs, as those programs are too old to handle the layer break properly. Using Nero to burn an ISO that has not been properly prepared is extremely dangerous, as it will probably place the layer break at an illegal position. You have been lucky if your standalone players have accepted your DLs so far. Furthermore, you cannot select the layer break position yourself with Nero.

Why not use ImgBurn instead? It's the successor of DVD Decrypter. You don't need to create an ISO on disc first. It can place the layer break correctly, with or without 32K IFO/BUP padding (to protect your DVD from scratches and dust a little bit more.) It supports seamless layer breaks (to suppress totally the little pause), and you can select the position of the LB in a very easy to use GUI. Furthermore, it is free, and you don't need to download an enormous package full on useless tools and gadgets.

[morph166955]

correct me if im wrong, but doesnt an iso just store the data and some information about the disc (like its name)? i was under the impression that the burning software (eg nero) handled where the layer break is placed and things of that nature.

[r0lZ]

It is true that the position of the LB is not stored in the ISO. However, the layer break cannot be placed everywhere. It has to be at the beginning of a cell (or of an IFO or BUP file) and that position must obey certain rules. The most important rule is that the LB must be at the beginning of an ECC bloc.

When you create an ISO with a tool that is not LB aware, you will most likely NOT have a cell at the right position, and Nero CANNOT select a good split point, simply because it cannot move the files in the ISO to align the cell with an ECC bloc properly. Therefore, it will place the LB at an illegal position, not at the beginning of a cell, or it will split an existing cell in two parts, and you might have a very disturbing pause inside an important shot. Most software players and some recent standalones accept an illegal LB without problem, but a standard-compliant player will probably hang.

With ImgBurn, the files are properly layered on disc (or on ISO) so that the rules are respected for the layer break YOU have selected.

[HTnuts]

I created a iso file of the movie "The Illusionist" that's sitting on
my desktop. It was created in DVD shrink/imgburn. Can I just open it up in imgburn, set the LB and burn it?

[r0lZ]

Maybe. ImgBurn is smart enough to warn you if he cannot find a suitable layer break position. Cross your fingers.