IｍｇBurn can burn -R/DL like +R/DL (Layer Jump Recording)

[jinjin_jp]

It is confirmed that IｍｇBurn can burn -R/DL like +R/DL (not burning to end of L0).
It use the function of ImgBurn ”Use Layer Jump Recording”.

By mmc5 (http://www.t10.org/ftp/t10/drafts/mmc5/mmc5r03a.pdf) page 98-99, "Layer Jump Recording (LJR)" has two methods (”Manual Layer Jump Recording” and "Interval Layer Jump"), and ”Manual Layer Jump Recording” can do it.

I failured the test (full L0 was burned.). Because LJR needs the drive which is corresponding to, but my drive(Plextor PX-716A) is not. It can confirm by DVDInfoPro.
So tests was by fellowships.

***************************************
Test Information
Drive : Plextor PX755A, Pioneer DVR-111L(Buffalo)---these are corresponding to LJR
Burned sectors: all of L0 is not 2,092,896(full)
1)L0 : 2,053,120, L1 : 2,039,040 (L0-L1=14,080)
2)L0 : 1,831,312, L1 : 1,750,672 (L0-L1=80,640)
3)L0 : 1,793,616, L1 : 1,779,520 (L0-L1=14,096)
4)L0 : 1,864,224, L1 : 1,767,551 (L0-L1=96,673)
And these are confirmed not to burning end of L0 by watching colour of disc.

ImgBurn's error when last of burning :
2) and 4) had no error.
1) and 3) had error.
Error of 3) is "（4171696-4171727)、Invalid Addres For Write"
Is it thought to be related with L0-L1? Sectors of blank media is shown like below(L0-L1=14,080). Is it seems to be error when L0-L1 is too small?.
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/5697/060723edoom9zc3.th.png (http://img141.imageshack.us/my.php?image=060723edoom9zc3.png)
But sectors of blank media is different from by software about -R/DL, inspite of being same about +R/DL (except for Nero). What is the correct value?
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/263/060723fbaedoom9vq9.th.png (http://img220.imageshack.us/my.php?image=060723fbaedoom9vq9.png)

Showing burned sectors and replaying seem to be according to device (whether corresponding or not).
Showing burned sectors :
Showing correctly : Plextor PX760A, Plextor PX755A
Showing incorrectly : Pioneer DVR-111L, Pioneer DVR-109 (L0 is shown as 2,092,896)

Replay :
no problem : only Plextor PX760A
problem : Pioneer DVR-111L, Plextor PX755A(freeze at LayerBr. point)
Pioneer DVR-530H(show "can't replay this disc"), Panasonic DVD-S75(screen is black)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
PS : almost of above information is not tested by myself. If it is not permitted, I stop to post more. Because I had been criticized before (when posted about PgcEdit's DL burning, but now I can test except for LJR).


add
Sorry,　Information was incorrect.
Cerrected part is red.

[r0lZ]

But sectors of blank media is different from by software about -R/DL, inspite of being same about +R/DL (except for Nero). What is the correct value?
PgcEdit cannot inspect the DVD to find out the correct number of sectors. The number of sectors must be set by the user.

Anyway, the current PgcEdit method (writing the full L0) works (almost) well, and it's the only method I will continue to support. I don't want to promote the crappy DVD-R format.

Of course, as usual, Nero is totally wrong! Since the number of sectors on each layer must be divisible by 16, an odd number of sectors cannot be true!

Thanks for the info anyway. Your investigations are really appreciated by everybody here. Please feel free to continue your good work!
:goodpost:

[jinjin_jp]

Showing burned sectors and replaying seem to be according to device (whether corresponding or not).
Additioanal information :
ImgBurn shows example (4),
***Plextor PX-760A***
DVD-R DL Manual Layer Jump:
Address: 1,864,223
***Pioneer DVR-111L, DVR-A09-J, BenQ DW1650,***
DVD-R DL Manual Layer Jump:
Address: Not Specified

Above all drives are showed as corresponding to LJR by DVDINfoPro.
Plextor PX-716A which is shown as not corresponding to LJR doesn't recognize disc.

[jinjin_jp]

PgcEdit cannot inspect the DVD to find out the correct number of sectors. The number of sectors must be set by the user.
We know it so.

Anyway, the current PgcEdit method (writing the full L0) works (almost) well, and it's the only method I will continue to support. I don't want to promote the crappy DVD-R format.
But we recognize PgcEdit is useful for -R/DL "Layer Jump Recording", too.
Example(2) uses actually ISO file which is created by PgcEdit (for +R/DL. I think it needs a little attention about capacity, but almost are no problem).

Of course, as usual, Nero is totally wrong! Since the number of sectors on each layer must be divisible by 16, an odd number of sectors cannot be true!
Yes, I think Nero is wrong about other points (for example like this (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=851894#post851894)), too.
Edit(add)
Example (1) was tried to test, because Nero announces corresponding to LJR in http://www.nero.com/nero6/eng/Nero_Burning_ROM_6_Release_Notes.html.
But the result was bad, it burned to end of L0.

Thanks for the info anyway. Your investigations are really appreciated by everybody here. Please feel free to continue your good work!
Thanks very much. I'd report when having new information.

add
Sorry,　Information was incorrect.
Cerrected part is red.

[jinjin_jp]

Test Information
1)L0 : 2,053,120, L1 : 2,039,040 (L0-L1=14,080)
2)L0 : 1,831,312, L1 : 1,750,672 (L0-L1=80,640)
3)L0 : 1,793,616, L1 : 1,779,520 (L0-L1=14,096)
4)L0 : 1,864,224, L1 : 1,767,551 (L0-L1=96,673)
ImgBurn's error when last of burning :
2) and 4) had no error.
1) and 3) had error.
Error of 1) is "（4171696-4171727)、Invalid Addres For Write"
Is it thought to be related with L0-L1? Sectors of blank media is shown like below(L0-L1=14,080). Is it seems to be error when L0-L1 is too small?.
Additional information :
About example(1)
*Before burning : L0 2,053,120, L1 2,050,692, L0-L1=2,428
*After burning : L0 2,053,120, L1 2,039,040, L0-L1=14,080
=>L1 become to small. (L0-L1 become to 14,080).
Is it assumed to be related with L0-L1 which ImgBurn shows as blank media(=14,080)? But why example(3) is 14,096?

[LIGHTNING UK!]

What exactly were you burning in the first place?

You can't just burn a normal ISO image in LJR mode and expect it to work, it won't.

The filesystem has to be built specifically for LJR as the LBA is not continuous at the layerbreak point and the file pointers have to know about that.

LJR is a waste of time and that's why nobody really talks about it. The DVD-R DL people should have just made layerbreaks work in the same way they did on DVD+R DL media.

[jinjin_jp]

@LIGHTNING UK!
I have also been thought -R/DL has demerit that L0 is fully burned, and I suppose to be thought so in Japan generally. But some person posted that -R/DL can be burned like +R/DL (i.e. not burning to end of L0). It seems to be possible be done by "Manual Layer Jump Recording" which I've never heard, I've heard only "Regular Interval Layer Jump". (These are written in http://www.t10.org/ftp/t10/drafts/mmc5/mmc5r03a.pdf )
But I can't believe at first, so tried to test (by other people's cooperation). From the result, I think it is not said that -R/DL can't be burned like +R/DL absolutely, I think there is a possibility of it.
I think the result seemed to be successful about not burning to end of L0 depending on the drive. But there remains the problem that the device is too a few that can show sectors correctlly and replay, and it is need that corresponding devices should spread, I suppose.

I don't know and can't understand the proffessional technical knowlegde, just guess there is a possibility. I don't mind if the result is impossible finally, because I enjyoyed to fill the curiosity.
But I reconsider if .....
Do you think there is no possibility and a waste of time ?

Regards.

[jinjin_jp]

What exactly were you burning in the first place?
You can't just burn a normal ISO image in LJR mode and expect it to work, it won't.
Do you mean whether layer changes correctlly according to LayerBr.(boundary between cells) ?

If so, yes except for example(1) beforementioned.
(example(1) had the problem in ISO before burned, LayerBr. was not adjusted to boundary of ECC block.)

Each is
3)ripping by DVD Decrypter (File mode)
__=> creating ISO by ImgToolClassic
__=> burning by ImgBurn (setting : DAO, Calculated Optimal, Use Layer Jump Recording)
2)ripping by DVD Decrypter (File mode)
__=> creating ISO by PgcEdit (setting LayerBr. as +R/DL)
__=> burning by ImgBurn (setting : DAO, Calculated Optimal, Use Layer Jump Recording)
1,4)ripping by DVD Decrypter (ISO mode)
__=> burning by ImgBurn (setting : DAO, User Specified(same as original), Use Layer Jump Recording)

2), 1), 4) : LayerBr. is according to setting (L0 is same as before burning).
But 1) : L1 become to small than before burning.

add
Sorry,　Information was incorrect.
Cerrected part is red.

[LIGHTNING UK!]

Originally I was excited about LJR because I too though it would mean DVD-R DL could be burnt with nice layerbreaks as the DVD+R DL are. I then found this is not the case. (Of course I could still have gotten it wrong, who knows!)

On DVD+R DL, if you move the layerbreak position the first LBA on L1 still follows on from the last LBA on L0

i.e.

Last LBA on L0 = 195871
First LBA on L1 = 195872

This is not the case for DVD-R DL.

No matter what, the LBA addresses on DVD-R DL media never change.

i.e.

L0 = LBA 0 to 2092895
L1 = LBA 2092896 to 4171712

Those numbers are fixed.

If you jump from L0 to L1 before LBA 2092895, you must add the difference from the fixed LB value to get the new LBA on L1.

i.e. First LBA on L1 = 2092896 + (2092895 - Jump LBA).

So in a basic example, if each layer is 100 sectors long and you want to manually jump at sector 70, the next LBA is not 71, it's 130.

As such, unless a program does some internal remapping, the filesystem must know that it's being built for DVD-R DL and that it's impossible to have a file spanning a layer jump (there's no way to know that somewhere in the middle of a file it jumps from LBA 70 to LBA 130, LBA values must be continuous).
The program building the ISO would need to know that once a file has reached sector 70, the next available one is 130, and so get the filesystem to point to that LBA instead of 71.

Hopefully that kinda makes sense?!

This is the whole reason ImgBurn issues a warning when you click the option to enable LJR. The technology might well be great in theory, but it sucks in practice!

[r0lZ]

Brillant explanation, LUK!

It's a new reason (for me) to avoid definitively DVD-R DL!
And anyway, I think it is better to use only +Rs (even for single layer), because it is not always the best system that win the commercial battle. (Remember for example VHS vs. BetaMax.) If we want the best, we must use only the best, to kill the worst!

[jinjin_jp]

As such, unless a program does some internal remapping, the filesystem must know that it's being built for DVD-R DL and that it's impossible to have a file spanning a layer jump (there's no way to know that somewhere in the middle of a file it jumps from LBA 70 to LBA 130, LBA values must be continuous).
I'd understood, you say not burning fully of L0, but "First LBA on L1" is not "Last LBA on L0"+1 ?
There is written about "4.3.5.5.5 Remapping on Layer Jump Recording" in page 91 of http://www.t10.org/ftp/t10/drafts/mmc5/mmc5r03a.pdf.
Can it resolve what you say ?

Regards.

[LIGHTNING UK!]

That to me looks like it will just remap sector 16 / 256 / Max LBA - 256 / Max LBA to a different LBA.

You can't specify your own custom LBA to map to another custom LBA, which is what you'd need.

btw, the Fuji specs go into much more details on DVD-R DL if you really want to read all that stuff!

[jinjin_jp]

@LIGHTNING UK!
Thanks for your explanation. That document is too difficult for me.
Tests are continued in Japan, but there is little new useful information. Everyone felt disunderstandable and confused.

[blutach]

This thread is terrific in explaining LJR. Was gunna ask what it was all about.

I still avoid -R DLs like the plague!

Thanks LUK, r0lz and jinjin_jp for your hard and high-quality, work.

Regards

[crazydave]

why can't the DVD-DL be burned in the traditional way i.e. all the way to the edge however modify the image so that there is dummy data inbetween the end of layer 0 and the start of layer 1, this would allow us to keep the same files on the same layer as the origional dvd

Could it be done this way? if it can, how easily could the process be automated?

[LIGHTNING UK!]

That's hard unless you modify the IFO's too.

You can't just put random data in the middle of a VTS set.

[r0lZ]

Do you mean that you have to cut the physical VOB file at the layer break point, to start with a fresh file on L1?

[LIGHTNING UK!]

I took it to mean adding some padding!

As all the files in the VTS have to be positioned next to each other so they can be accessed as if it were 1 huge chunk of data, that obviously won't work - well not unless you stick a dummy cell or something in there that's never referenced.

[r0lZ]

Ah, OK, thanks.
Not easy, indeed.

[blutach]

Plus, that would put an end to seamless layer break as you needed a command to skip over the "padding sectors".

Regards

[jinjin_jp]

8 examples have been tested up to now.
Condition of successed examples are
1)burned ISO image : L0-L1>=14,080 (L0-L1=2,428 : failure, L0-L1=15,288 : success)
2)drive for burning : pioneer DVR-111L, 111D
3)drive for confirming sectors (same as before burning) : plextor PX-755A, 760A
4)drive for replay (not freezing) : plextor PX-755A, 760A

Judgement is slight
2)drive for burning : pioneer DVR-109
---confirmed sectors and replaying have no problem, but error was happened when finalizing of burning.

Failured drive are
2)drive for burning : plextor PX-755A, 760A, LITE-ON SHM-165P6S
3)drive for confirming sectors : pioneer DVR-111L, 111D　(L0=2,092,896)　---add
4)drive for replay : pioneer DVR-109, 111L, BenQ DW1650

I think strange that pioner is good for burning, but wrong for confirming sectors and replaying, oppositely plextor is wrong for burning, but good for confirming sectors and replaying.

Regards

[jinjin_jp]

Sorry, I posted mistaken information in #1.
I want to correct it.
But sectors of blank media is different from by software about -R/DL, inspite of being same about +R/DL (except for Nero). What is the correct value?
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/2808/060728pgceditfedoom9rv4.th.png (http://img140.imageshack.us/my.php?image=060728pgceditfedoom9rv4.png)
I mistook L0+L1(L1) of DVDDecrypter.
DVDDecrypter shows like below, and I used Sectors not Free Sectors.
*********************************
PLEXTOR DVDR PX-716A 1.09 (1394)
Current Profile: DVD-R DL

Disc Information:
Status: Empty
Erasable: No
Sessions: 1
Sectors: 4,349,568
Size: 8,907,915,264 bytes
Time: 966:36:18 (MM:SS:FF)
Free Sectors: 4,171,712
Free Space: 8,543,666,176 bytes
Free Time: 927:04:62 (MM:SS:FF)

Pre-recorded Information:
Manufacturer ID: MKM 01RD30

Recording Management Area Information:
PLEXTOR DVDR PX-716A

Physical Format Information (Last Recorded):
Disc ID: 0-00
Book Type: DVD-R
Part Version: 6
Disc Size: 120mm
Maximum Read Rate: Not Specified
Number of Layers: 2
Track Path: Opposite Track Path (OTP)
Linear Density: 0.293 um/bit
Track Density: 0.74 um/track
First Physical Sector of Data Area: 196,608
Last Physical Sector of Data Area: 16,566,527
Last Physical Sector in Layer 0: 2,289,503

Layer Information:
Layer 0 Sectors: 2,092,896 (48.12%)
Layer 1 Sectors: 2,256,672 (51.88%)
*********************************
Does anyone help about difference of between Sectors and Free Sectors?

[LIGHTNING UK!]

You should probably use the info from ImgBurn rather than DVD Decrypter.

DVD Dec was doing things it shouldn't have been - what with DVD-R DL being new technology back then and all that.

Here's what I get from ImgBurn....

PLEXTOR DVDR PX-760A 1.03 (ATA)
Current Profile: DVD-R DL

Disc Information:
Status: Empty
Erasable: No
Free Sectors: 4,171,712
Free Space: 8,543,666,176 bytes
Free Time: 927:04:62 (MM:SS:FF)
Supported Write Speeds: 4x, 6x

DVD±R DL Boundary Information:
L0 Data Zone Capacity: 2,092,896
Changeable: No

DVD-R DL Manual Layer Jump:
Address: 2,092,895

Pre-recorded Information:
Manufacturer ID: MKM 01RD30

Recording Management Area Information:
PLEXTOR DVDR PX-760A

Physical Format Information (Last Recorded):
Disc ID: 0-00
Book Type: DVD-R
Part Version: 6
Disc Size: 120mm
Maximum Read Rate: Not Specified
Number of Layers: 2
Track Path: Opposite Track Path (OTP)
Linear Density: 0.293 um/bit
Track Density: 0.74 um/track
First Physical Sector of Data Area: 196,608
Last Physical Sector of Data Area: 16,566,527
Last Physical Sector in Layer 0: 2,289,503

You should ignore the 'Sectors' bit from DVD Dec and also the layer distribution info at the bottom. That's only really valid once the disc has been burnt (that disc still says 'Empty'). Also, only the size of the first layer is actually mentioned anywhere, the size of the second is just calculated via simple maths. (total size - size of L0 = size of L1) As the total size is invalid/wrong, it means the size of L1 is wrong.

[jinjin_jp]

Thanks for the info.
I'm(We're) using ImgBurn about ISO sectors, but also using DVDDecrypter about LBA of files, because there's not alternative software (almost ISOBuster is, but it can't show last LBA of file).
There seems to be no problem in confirming LBA of files with DVDDecrypter. Is it correct?

Regards.

[jinjin_jp]

@LIGHTNING UK!
I've been thought about your explanation.
No matter what, the LBA addresses on DVD-R DL media never change.
So in a basic example, if each layer is 100 sectors long and you want to manually jump at sector 70, the next LBA is not 71, it's 130.
So confirmed about LBA of file which across L0 and L1 be DVDDecrypter. Results seem to be that the LBA addresses on DVD-R DL media changes.
Concrete examples are, (adding L0,L1 by ImgBurn and DVD Decrypter)
(1)
LBA: 1864224 - 2388510
Size:1,073,739,776 bytes
Layer 0 Sectors: 2,092,896 (51.18%)
Layer 1 Sectors: 1,996,223 (48.82%)
(2)
LBA : 1,626,398 - 2,055,674
size : 879,159,296 bytes
Layer 0 Sectors: 1,831,312 (51.13%)
Layer 1 Sectors: 1,750,672 (48.87%)
(3)
LBA : 1,591,345 - 2,115,587
size : 1,173,649,664 bytes
Layer 0 Sectors: 1,941,408 (50.2%)
Layer 1 Sectors: 1,926,120 (49.8%)
All does not change between before and after burning.

Above results is confirmed by plextor drives (755A/760A).
On the other hand when confirming pioneer drive (111L/111D), same about LBA of file, but differnt about sectors of L0.
Layer 0 Sectors: 2,092,896 ---(it means L0 is filled).
Is it thought result is depending or not on the drive support -R/DL ?

And found your post by searching,
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=744608#post744608
The first zone in LJR media is supposed to be 100% compatible with normal DVD standards.
Is it mean the LBA addresses on DVD-R DL media changes ?

Regards.

[LIGHTNING UK!]

There is a huge problem with confirming LBA of files on DVD-R DL media, it DOESN'T work!!!

The LBA is taken from the filesystem. The filesystem of a normal (not specifically built for DVD-R DL) ISO will NOT be correct once burnt to a DVD-R DL disc where a manual layerjump / shifted middle area / regular interval jump has been used.

As I said before, the files in the ISO (or rather it's filesystem) will have continuous LBA addresses. It simply cannot handle the non-continuous nature of DVD-R DL layerbreak LBAs.

Going back to my previous example, if the ISO contains files using LBA 61-70, then another at 71 - 80, then another at 81-90 etc, the only one that works would be the 61-70 one.
The LBA address of the others simply doesn't exist!

As the Disc goes from 0 - 70 on L0, then 130 - 200 on L1.

So all files after 70 would need to have their LBA address (as specified in the filesystem) shifted up by 60 so that they start at 130 and go on from there.

No program out there is going to tell you the real physical location of a file on a disc, they can only go by what's said in the filesystem - and as said before, the filesystem is wrong.

My advice.... give up with this quest for finding out how useful / cr@p LJR is! lol :D

[jinjin_jp]

Ｔｈａnks very much for the explanation.
I understood that
it can't be said that LBA of -R/DL is continuous by DVDDecrypter, because confirming LBA is difficult.

Regards.