Just a thought...

[Orion|69]

Since the authors of the main tools for this section kinda force people to go VIP, to be able to use the best versions out of these same tools, wouldn't it make more sense to go shareware by now ?

Let me explain. I'm all for people being at least a bit compensated for all the hard work they do - don't get me wrong there - I just don't get their thoughts behind the VIP-versions thingy, mainly because instead of making sense and the authors of the tools being a bit compensated, it's getting a mess version-wise, and quite frankly I don't even think the authors are aware of this.

As a nice example of this (note: It's really an example - I really don't want to flame or be negative about any author or tool - they all kick ass for sure) :
Most people wanting to try the REAL high-quality procedure to backup their dvd's will come to the Doom9 website and visit the guides to read up on how to actually achieve it.
Clicking the link in "- using the Big 3 (DoItFast4U, NuMenu4u, Scenaid and BatchCCEWS) - last updated 09/25/2005" would be the first thing they will do, since it's the most recently updated guide and if fact pretty much the only one in there that would be the correct choice nowadays, since using Scenaid is pretty much a must unless you like to correct quite a bit by hand going the older RA-method, which doesn't make sense at all for people starting to get into backing their dvd's up.

This guide litteraly mentions :
"You will need the following software for this guide:
...
DoItFast4U
...
DIF4U (1.4.7- public & 1.4.8 -VIP)"

Superb you'll think.. even a link to the download of the public version is provided.. but alas.. the only version provided is the 2003 version 1.4.0.0 by Eyes`Only. Nowhere is the mentioned public version 1.4.7 to be found. This will throw new users off, or it will make them search for someone willing to share their VIP-version which actually is a lot better.

This won't help the authors.. I really think this even works in their disadvantage, since I think this actually happens on a bigger scale than they suspect. Just to test this I tried to get the newest version out and I managed to get it within 2 hours, without using a search-engine - just by being friendly on IRC to some dudes (which I won't name).

Getting to the point of my post (which is too lengthy.. I know) :
I'm all for the authors being compensated for all the work and tons of hours they put in to delivering great tools to the community - but be honest about the fact that you want to be compensated a bit for all this work (and yes I know, that this compensation won't even remotely cover the effort put into it). Don't travel this "I'll make em go VIP if they really want the power-options/less bugs/latest versions"-road, and then not care about it. Making your tool shareware with lifetime free updates to the user and all this for a small fee, wouldn't just make everything much clearer versionwise to your users - it would probably even collect more deserved compensation for all the work you put in, without demanding alot from your users if they would want to dive into all this using your tools.
I couldn't imagine anyone (user-wise) objecting to this, because they would get superb professional tools for almost nothing, to help them get the quality they strive for.

All in all.. these professional outstanding tools, need a versioncontrol which is just as professional, and the VIP-system is - however meant well - just amateuristic imo and causes irritation to the new user, where these tools should only spread joy using them - I really think they are that professional.

Again (read this as some sort of disclaimer) - I'm not aiming this at one author or tool in particular - the example I used, is not meant as anything else.. just an example. This is ofcourse just my 2cts - I'm not claiming to be knowledgable - my idea might even be stupid to others, or for whatever reason not even possible. It's not my intention to flame, nag, or be ungratefull in general - it's just an idea.. nothing more :)

[Guest]

Please read and follow forum rules, specifically, rule 9: use a proper thread title. Thank you.

http://forum.doom9.org/forum-rules.htm

I can tell you as a developer that shareware is great for the user but not so great for the developer; only a tiny fraction of people ever convert shareware. If a developer really wants to recover some funds, shareware is not the way to go. The way to go is to lure them in with a free version and then hook them with the full ("VIP") version. Just because some particular implementation of the idea is carried out poorly, it doesn't negate my point.

For the record, I never seek any funds for my work, because I already have a good, well-paying job, and because taking money commits you to support, and I don't want to spend my life holding noobs' hands.

Bottom line for you: if you'd convert the shareware, you should have no problem with buying the VIP version.

Finally, don't brag about getting software illegally. I would edit that out if I were you. Do the right thing, otherwise developers will stop developing.

In my case, all I ask is that the GPL be honored, but if a developer offers her wares for a price, you have no right to rip her off.

[Orion|69]

Please read and follow forum rules, specifically, rule 9: use a proper thread title. Thank you.

http://forum.doom9.org/forum-rules.htm

Being a personal thought reflecting my own point-of-view, I reckoned the topic title was covering the post, but clearly it made more sense in my head than it did for you and for that I apologize - I'll try to be more specific in the future :)

I can tell you as a developer that shareware is great for the user but not so great for the developer; only a tiny fraction of people ever convert shareware. If a developer really wants to recover some funds, shareware is not the way to go. The way to go is to lure them in with a free version and then hook them with the full ("VIP") version. Just because some particular implementation of the idea is carried out poorly, it doesn't negate my point.

Isn't that basically what most shareware software does? I think it does. Not calling it shareware but instead naming it the full VIP version after paying a fee, is at least in my opinion pretty much the same, because that's exactly what you get when you buy shareware in 99% of the cases. I'm not taking in account possible legal stuff, or if in fact anything would legally change when calling it shareware because that's something I don't know much about, and perhaps I could have made that a bit more clear in my first post. It was just meant as brainstorming and to read what others thought about the matter.

For the record, I never seek any funds for my work, because I already have a good, well-paying job, and because taking money commits you to support, and I don't want to spend my life holding noobs' hands.

I'm a developer myself and altho I didn't contribute more than the little SST-fixer on Doom9, I've been quite active in other communities (OBSD mainly). Therefor I agree with you and community-wise I wouldn't (and don't) contribute anything other than freeware or gpl'ed oss myself. But that's not the point of my post - If people do like to receive funds to cover just a bit of the time put in developing these tools (well-deserved in the case of the tools discussed and offered in this subsection of the forum), it's their right and I even hope they fare well by it. I was just asking myself/in general if this would be the best way to do so.

Bottom line for you: if you'd convert the shareware, you should have no problem with buying the VIP version.

And I don't have a problem with that at all. I'm afraid you read my post and concluded somehow from it that I myself have a problem paying for something that is usefull to me. I really don't and I'm not lying that when I say that I've always bought the tools I actually used - either for private use or for my work. I know talk is cheap and it's impossible to actually proof what I'm saying 100%, but I hope you believe me by just stating that.

Finally, don't brag about getting software illegally. I would edit that out if I were you. Do the right thing, otherwise developers will stop developing.

In my case, all I ask is that the GPL be honored, but if a developer offers her wares for a price, you have no right to rip her off.

I should have explained that part better now that I review my first post (somehow in my head it all made sense the first time).
I'm absolutely not bragging that I was able to get software I didn't pay for. I was trying to vent my concern that in fact everybody with an IRC-client is able to do the same. It's not a bragging matter and I'm sad it seemed to you that I was doing just that. I could have explained that I deleted the download afterwards (after checking it was the latest VIP-version tho) since I don't even backup my DVD's anymore, but again.. words are cheap.. I know - therefor did I pay D3s7 for the VIP version of ScenAid without even wanting the software - not because I'm affraid I have to proof myself I'm legit - just to try to have this discussion as clean as possible and this way there can be no distraction because of my "illegal" download. (He deserves it anyway because I gladly used his free mods to VSRip/VSConv etc when I still did backup my dvd's and only those two tools saved the day on more than one occassion).

I just hope D3s7 understands that this all isn't an attack at him, nor his tools, and that I have nothing but respect for his work, like I have the same respect for you and your free tools.

Again.. it was just my thought - I don't expect anything from it - it's merely meant as input for you to maybe think on, on how I (and perhaps others) see all this VIP stuff. If it weren't for a "noob"-friend who asked my help, because he wants to learn to encode and reauthor, I probably wouldn't have thought about this all in the first place - but hey.. I now did :)

Thanks for your reply, because I hope that gave me the chance to clear some stuff up :)

[D3s7]

In a way you are correct.....what we offer could be viewed as shareware but from our standpoint, it's not...

Most "shareware" is crippled in some method.. either functionality purposely removed from the normal version or time limited. It's meant to wet your appitite so you want the full program. Our applications aren't that way... we simply stopped adding features to the "free" version and instead focused on additional features capabilities for those we labeled as "VIP" people who either by donation with money, time or other have helped the applications develop.

Some of these advanced features do get rolled out when the next "VIP" version gets released... Rebuilder was like that for a time... the latest / greatest went to VIP where the previous build went to all. MuxMan is much like that as well as is Doitfast4u.

Scenaid is slightly different and when the next revision comes out, many of the current "VIP" only things will be available to all and be replaced by other features that are new and need testing. That model is on my part, to save me the 100 emails a day from people who have no vested interest in the process but want a quick, simple, easy way to do it without charge. When something goes wrong, they immediatly blame the application and demand support. Not something I enjoy doing :)
New features or test features I make available to those who have shown they care about the application.

I can't speak for NuMenu or the other apps as I'm not the author for them but I know Zeul has stated some of the same points regarding his programs.

None of us are in this for the money.... far from it. If you compare the number of downloads to the number of donations it's pretty easy to see... and without sites such as doom9, none of our apps would be known about or probably even developed.

I personally didn't take your post as an attack on our apps or us as authors. Nor is my response any retaliation in regards to it just an attempt to help any who read see it from our standpoint

[D3s7]

I might add as well that these models only work as long as all the authors can honor them.

If Neuron sent me a PM for example asking for me to remove the capibility to use dgindex from the VIP version, I'd probably remove the VIP requirement not the option. Some authors feel strongly toward pure open sourse, some feel strongly to pure freeware, some feel the need to be compensated for the time / energy it took to dev their apps. Some just want to be able to pay for the hosting / bandwidth their apps use on a monthly basis.

It's only us a full community that have been able to make these apps (and I do speak for myself.. ohers may disagree) work to the ability they do...

Even your little application that helps resolve an issue that some people seem to have is greatly appreciated.. while the core issue might be with something we did or have changed, these little helpers allow us to finish major changes instead of having to stop to correct minor problems with older applications