180MB undersize with new editor/10MB with the old -- What'd I do wrong?

[JFerguson]

I just did The 40 Year Old Virgin, Unrated, R1 and I got a big difference in output between the two editors. This was my first use of the new editor.

I cannot figure out what I did wrong. In these two trials, I blanked the same stuff. In the new editor, after blanking, I moved the feature VTS slider to bring the output up to 4.33GB, but got an output of 4.15GB.

I zipped up my project files in this file:

http://www.chicagophoto.net/JeffStuff/40_YEAR_OLD_VIRGIN_UR.RBD.zip

I'm a little hesitant to use the new editor, until I can figure out what happened here -- thanks...

[Voodoochild]

I just did The 40 Year Old Virgin, Unrated, R1 and I got a big difference in output between the two editors. This was my first use of the new editor.

I cannot figure out what I did wrong. In these two trials, I blanked the same stuff. In the new editor, after blanking, I moved the feature VTS slider to bring the output up to 4.33GB, but got an output of 4.15GB.


I did The Movie "Frida" with the new Editor, but didn't blank anything output was 4.33 GB (4,656,779,264 bytes) as always. I didn't try to blank somepart though with the new slider. try to do a test without blank just to see what output size you get.

[laserfan]

I encountered a similar oddity I think: I used the new editor to "Blank" a VTS_02 (2-minute commercial, about 50Mb in size) and whereas it appears that this VTS was not included in the output, I had 100Mb free in the finished DVD where usually I get around 50Mb.

I expected if I blanked the 50Mb item, that RB would use it for the main program? Did I miss a step--do I need to do more than just click the Blank checkbox and then Save? The DVD Output Size in the Segment Viewer changes from 4.32Gb to 4.27Gb when I check the Blank box for this item.

Where would I look in the logs to see that RB took my blanked VTS into account?

Using v1.10.2, Full Backup mode, Steal Space 00%, HC encoder.

[jikchung]

According to this post: (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=847844&postcount=2)

One of the things you have to watch with the new editor is that if you blank something and save space -- you have to decide yourself where you want it to go (e.g. the feature).

[laserfan]

Thanks for that, although as I looked at that thread, it is still not clear to me what you have to do specifically "to decide yourself where you want it to go".

Guess I'm being a dolt--once blanked how/where do you tell RB where to apply the "savings"?

[jikchung]

From the first post in this thread:

In the new editor, after blanking, I moved the feature VTS slider to bring the output up to 4.33GB

I hope this helps. I'm not trying to be vague, I just haven't used the feature myself as yet.

[laserfan]

I hope this helps. I'm not trying to be vague, I just haven't used the feature myself as yet.Thanks, you are likely right about this. I guess my biorhythms are way-off today. :o

[JFerguson]

Bump...

Taking another look at this and while trying a couple of things, I noticed something odd.

I blanked the titlesets I wanted to blank, then saved the changes. I did not make any adjustments for the extra unallocated bitrate. DVD output size at 3.58GB.

I went back in, highlighted "VTS_01 (Feature) and used the percentage slider to bring the "DVD Output Size" to 4.35GB.

Here's the problem. Beneath that percentage slider, the numbers state:

Est Size (video): 3709.0MB
Est Size (total): 4205.4MB
Bitrate: 3915 Kbs

That would be right if I wanted a DVD sized to 4.11GB (versus the stated 4.35GB). And that's about what I got. Note, that with the blanking, the other titlesets total to less than 10MB.

So, something is off between the "DVD Output Size" and the actual total of the individual titlesets. Right?

Note that when I blanked the same titlesets in the old editor, I got an average bitrate of 4082kbps for the feature, and a correctly sized DVD.

[jdobbs]

Maybe I misunderstand, but I think it's right.

The text showing:

Est Size (video): 3709.0MB
Est Size (total): 4205.4MB
Bitrate: 3915 Kbs

is only talking about the highlighted section.... not the entire disc. It wouldn't include, for example, any of the segments or menus that are being copied intact.

Does it come out to the right size (~4.35GB) when you do the ENCODE/REBUILD?

[JFerguson]

No, it won't come out to the right size. The feature (VTS_01) will build to about 4200MB, and with nothing in VIDEO_TS.* and the other titlesets blanked to 10MB, I'm not even close to 4.35GB.

Look at the bitrates in blanking with the old editor versus blanking with the new editor/adjusting feature. They're off by a magnitude.

If I blank non-features down to 10MB, how is 4200MB for the feature going to get me to 4.35GB?

[JFerguson]

Ok, I just did another test with Syriana. Blanked all non-feature titlesets down to nothing, adjusted feature bitrate to bring DVD size to 4.34GB. Total estimated size for feature is 4355MB.

It's not as pronounced, but how does 4355MB = 4.34GB?

And I just compared the REBUILDER.ECL bitrates between doing this in the old editor versus the new editor, and again, the new editor's bitrates are lower by a factor, for the same target size of 4.34GB.

[jdobbs]

You are overanalyzing. If the size of the disc comes out right -- then everything is ok. You can't look at the rates in the ECL file because they are all based upon a common denominator of 23.976fps -- so the bitrate can be as much as 25% off compared to what it will be when it is REBUILT.

The old editor reported bitrates based upon what would be in the ECL -- but then I had to deal with constant complaints about how they weren't representative because the real rate after bitrate conversion is higher. I changed it satisfy the crowd, and now I'm taking shots because it is in the other direction. I can't win.

[jdobbs]

Ok, I just did another test with Syriana. Blanked all non-feature titlesets down to nothing, adjusted feature bitrate to bring DVD size to 4.34GB. Total estimated size for feature is 4355MB. Didn't I just explain that a few posts up?

Run the encode and tell be what size the VIDEO_TS folder is. If you think there is still a problem -- post some REBUILDER.INI, REBUILDER.INF, and REBUILDER.ECL files so I can do some analysis -- better yet, send them to dvd-rb@dvd-rb.com. I've done numerous test encodes all of which are sized properly (or it wouldn't have been included in the version) -- so just reporting without supporting information really doesn't give me a lot to work with.

[JFerguson]

Didn't I just explain that a few posts up?


Yes, and for my initial example (40-Year-Old virgin), 4200MB feature + 10MB other + 0MB unprocessed does not equal 4.35GB, and did not build to 4.35GB. It built to 4.15GB.


Run the encode and tell be what size the VIDEO_TS folder is. If you think there is still a problem -- post some REBUILDER.INI, REBUILDER.INF, and REBUILDER.ECL files so I can do some analysis -- better yet, send them to dvd-rb@dvd-rb.com. I've done numerous test encodes all of which are sized properly (or it wouldn't have been included in the version) -- so just reporting without supporting information really doesn't give me a lot to work with.

I don't know what the disconnect is here... maybe it is because you were offline for a few days after the release, and jumped into this thread in the middle of things. All of this information has been available in the first post of thread right from the start.

I'm just trying to figure out what happened here...I will additionally email this information as requested.

[jdobbs]

Sorry, I missed that.

I'll look at it... don't forget that the new viewer/editor is still in beta. It may need some tweaking.

I've got 40 Year Old Virgin... I'll run it tomorrow. But I need to make sure I'm doing the same thing as you. Did you blank all the segments by hand before adjusting the slider up?

[JFerguson]

Yes, blanked by hand, then back up to V01 to adjust the feature slider. I think I did that in the same editor session. I've noticed that you seem to get different percentage segments on that slider depending on whether you use it in the same session (as blanking) versus saving changes and closing it and then going back in. That slider's a little hard to work with, but then that's been discussed already...

The only other thing that might be different is a custom TargetSectors setting, but I think I took that out on another try without much difference in the result.

Also, as stated, this was the UnRated R1 version.

[jdobbs]

The target setting has an impact... but only in determining what point the "OVERSIZED" warning gets displayed.

[JFerguson]

jdobbs,

I just noticed that my email to you bounced back from dvd-rb.com. I've resent the files to the comcast address...

[jdobbs]

I just did some tests. It worked for me from three different service providers. Are you still having problems?

[JFerguson]

Well, I'll try it again. Did you get the attachment, otherwise?

[JFerguson]

Just reporting back here...

I reran tests on this again with the new Rebuilder v1.10.6. When I originally reported this problem, I was using Rebuilder v1.10.2. Again, with this disc, I blanked virtually all extras, and when using the new editor, brought the main movie VTS up to target size.

DVD Rebuilder v1.10.6
I compared the vbr_brate_avg= values in REBUILDER.ECL between using the old versus the new editor. Here, the new editor produced values that were about 20kbps higher than what the old editor produced. I think they would have been closer; I think I may have used the new micro adjustments to push my target size just past my TargetSectors= value in my project file, which I surmise that the new editor looks at.

DVD Rebuilder v1.10.2
I ran this again with this version. Here, the vbr_brate_avg= values were on the order of about 200kbps different (new editor having the lower values), which was exactly the same case with my original trial with this version.


Anyway, I didn't actually build anything on these tests, but in looking at the .ECL files, it appears that v1.10.6 has fixed this problem.

Just FYI...