HD-DVD/Blu-Ray data on normal DVD5/9?

[easy2Bcheesy]

I was reading online that HD-DVD data structures can be pressed onto DVD5s or DVD9s and played back in HD-DVD players.

For a company like mine that specialises in promotional shorts, this would allow our clients to mass produce HD disks without having to spend extra on actual HD-DVD media.

My question is this - does Blu-Ray offer the same functionality? Or will it only playback HD material from actual Blu-Ray media?

[dvdboy]

I believe there is support within the BD Spec for a format called BD-9 which would be Blu-Ray Content on a DVD-9.

HTH

[easy2Bcheesy]

That's excellent news. Can any one else confirm this?

Also, could a normal DVD Video partition coexist on the same disk?

[mpucoder]

While I'm still gathering data on the HD formats, it appears that backward compatibility is built in. There are flags all over the place to distinguish HD from SD, at the ifo level, video level, and subpictures. So it appears that it is not an all or nothing deal at the disk level, but that each component can be either HD or SD (a flag throughout the structures called "vern" distinguishes version 1.1 (SD) from version 2.0 (HD))

[easy2Bcheesy]

I would be very interested to know if HD and SD titlesets can co-exist on the same disk resulting in a disk that is playable either on a standard DVD player or Blu-Ray player.

More than likely though, a 'flipper' DVD10 disk would need to be created.

While we are at it, is Scenarist HD the only authoring tool that can handle Blu-Ray disk creation?

[dvdboy]

Actually it's ScenaristBD for obvious reasons, and I believe Sony may also have an audthoring tool.

[easy2Bcheesy]

ScenaristBD is £34,000! Somewhat out of budget for a small studio.

I do wonder whether the old Spruce guys at DVD Studio Pro are planning anything, or if they're just going to stick with HD-DVD support.

[crypto]

I would be very interested to know if HD and SD titlesets can co-exist on the same disk resulting in a disk that is playable either on a standard DVD player or Blu-Ray player.

Yes, they can co-exist. DVD stuff is read from the VIDEO_TS folder and HD DVD stuff from the HVDVD_TS folder.

[vsv]

I would be very interested to know if HD and SD titlesets can co-exist on the same disk resulting in a disk that is playable either on a standard DVD player or Blu-Ray player.

More than likely though, a 'flipper' DVD10 disk would need to be created.

While we are at it, is Scenarist HD the only authoring tool that can handle Blu-Ray disk creation?

Answer on your questions:
http://www.mediatrade.fi/PDFs/Scenarist4_Brochure.pdf

Low cost tool for authoring HD mpeg2 without advanced mode is Ulead DVD Movie Factory5.

[vsv]

Yes, they can co-exist. DVD stuff is read from the VIDEO_TS folder and HD DVD stuff from the HVDVD_TS folder.

Not sure of this if both folders on same layer...
When i've had a hybrid DVD-Audio+DVD-Video test disc
(when DVD-A content into AUDIO_TS folder and DVD-V into VIDEO_TS) universal player already started playing first DVD-A
and impossible to choose manually desired variant.
A simple DVD player (without ability to play DVD-A) seen only
VIDEO_TS content and succefully played.
HD-DVD disc can have also two layers: layer0 (15GB) for HD-DVD content HVDVD_TS playable only on HDDVD player and layer1(4.37GB) for red laser existing DVD player.

[easy2Bcheesy]

Well I now have the Ulead software so once I find someone with a Toshiba HD-DVD player, we can put it to the test. My gut feeling is that VIDEO_TS will be ignored when HVDVD_TS folder is there.

Ulead doesn't allow for 720p/59.94 MPEG files but I wonder how difficult it would be to mux our own and slot them in instead? HD-DVD uses BUP, IFO and EVO files with EVO opening as an MPEG2 in VirtualDub Mod... so the structure could well be identical to a VOB?

[peter100m]

Actually it's ScenaristBD for obvious reasons, and I believe Sony may also have an audthoring tool.
Yes, Sony has their BluPrint software. But it is not available to the public though. You have to license up with Sony or be Sony to actually get it. Didn't like the look and feel of it at NAB.
The new Scenarist versions that support the HD formats looks really nice though.

[easy2Bcheesy]

Well, I have authored my first HD-DVD and Blu-Ray disks using the withdrawn version of the Ulead package and it proved to be an interesting experience.

Ulead only allows 1440x1080 or 1920x1080 files, so the first order of the day was to write an AviSynth script that would convert my 720p/60 CineForm files into 1080i/30.

I then encoded as a two pass VBR 30mbps program stream in Canopus Procoder 2. nVidia PureVideo had problems running it, and it looked like the field order was wrong, so a quick change of SelectEvery(4,0,3) to SelectEvery(4,1,2) sorted that out. It still lags on my Merom-powered laptop, but even though it's been upscaled, it looks not bad at all!

I then created an anamorphic 480i/30 version and authored a quick DVD to run that single video.

Then, as I have no HD-DVD hardware, the ISO file of my work was sent to an HD-DVD owner. He reports it works fine burned to DVD-R single layer, on both DVD and HD-DVD :)

I am a bit annoyed at having to rescale. Surely HD-DVD can run 720p/59.94 MPEG2s?

The disk structure created looks almost identical to DVD - BUP and IFO files, with EVO files taking the place of VOBs. EVOs open just fine in VirtualDub Mod.

My guess? MPEG2-based HD-DVDs are most likely very easy to author, most likely very similar in structure to normal DVD. Would any one care to look at my disk image? PM me for a link - it's 320mb.

With regards Blu-Ray - a totally different disk structure. Looks like an oddly-muxed Transport Stream to me. Again, if any experts care to take a look, drop me a line.

[mpucoder]

The information I have (from patents and patent applications) says HD has three resolutions - 1280, 1440, and 1920 (from US 20040151475).

[bond]

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=103066

[easy2Bcheesy]

Will be interested to see what mpucoder makes of HD-DVD and Blu-Ray disk structures. I note the support for MPEG 1280x1080 - I have read of someone authoring an HD-DVD with this resolution... I am wondering if I should attempt to rescale my 720p vid to this, lower the bitrate and let the player scale it to proper HD.

AVC or VC1 injected into this disk structure would be welcome, but I suspect that there's a whole different level of authoring required for that content. We shall see!

[easy2Bcheesy]

Thus far it appears that both of the Blu-Ray authoring tools available - DVD Movie Factory and VideoStudio 10 - both from Ulead, do not work on the Samsung Blu-Ray player. Not even when burned to an actual Blu-Ray disk.

MF was definitely withdrawn and I daresay VS10 was too. Perhaps they are simply incompatible with the final spec?

With regards other authoring tools, what are the Nero guys up to? It all seems rather weird that there are NO HD-DVD burners out there, yet plenty of authoring solutions. Blu-Ray does have a burner available, but as yet, there are no working authoring packages around...

[dvdboy]

Yes, Sony has their BluPrint software. But it is not available to the public though. You have to license up with Sony or be Sony to actually get it. Didn't like the look and feel of it at NAB.
The new Scenarist versions that support the HD formats looks really nice though.

Well, Scenarist4HD looks the same as Scenarist. ScenaristBD looked like a bad gui to edit xml files IMO.

[easy2Bcheesy]

DVD Studio Pro is HD-DVD enabled and has AVC support. Considering Apple is part of the Blu-Ray consortium now, it's almost certain that DVDSP will be Blu-Ray ready soon. For the first time in my life I am seriously considering buying a Mac (Mini with 2GB RAM upgrade and 2.16GHz Yonah I have spare from my Merom upgrade :D)

There are rumours that DVD SP/AVC authored disks do not work on the Toshiba HD-A1 but MPEG2 works fine. Can any one confirm this, or point me to other discussions on the net about this?

[vsv]

Do you have tested on Toshiba HD-A1 mpeg2 720p60 authored by DVDSP4?

[easy2Bcheesy]

Not yet. I don't have the software or an HD-A1! This is what is most frustrating about the whole thing ;)

The Apple support forums for DVD Studio Pro say this:

1. AVC doesn't work on DVD-R media
2. The menu selection subpictures don't work
3. A duplication factory owner says that MPEG2 and AVC content works on pressed disks... but I find this hard to believe

[vsv]

Not yet. I don't have the software or an HD-A1! This is what is most frustrating about the whole thing ;)

But you have HD-A1 Globe team for testing:)

The Apple support forums for DVD Studio Pro say this:

1. AVC doesn't work on DVD-R media
2. The menu selection subpictures don't work
3. A duplication factory owner says that MPEG2 and AVC content works on pressed disks... but I find this hard to believe

Problem not in optical media, between DVD-R or a factory pressed DVD...
May be need to find full HDDVD compliant AVC stream
and do test with them. How i know AVC for HDDVD limited
in GOP, B-frame and more...

[Trahald]

A1's have been used to playback these dvds (when old nero is used a fake video_ts.ifo is thrown into the video_ts directory in dvd_Video mode and drop your separate HVDVD_TS folder on the root and burn as a dvd. Newest nero has direct blu ray and hddvd support.

see this interesting thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archive/index.php/t-667462-p-1.html)

[easy2Bcheesy]

Can you provide a link to the Nero support for those formats? I only see BD-ROM data support.

[Trahald]

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/1529/nerocompilations6ku.th.jpg (http://img68.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nerocompilations6ku.jpg)
is a screen grab of the selection dialog.. i couldnt find anything on ahead.de

...the support for hd dvd and bluray is really just udf format dialogs except it allows for the tons of gbs of data. it doesnt verify the data and have structure like it does for a dvd_video compilation. you have to put the proper folder and files in.

[Squished]

Interesting thread to run across...

I've got DVDSP 4.1, and I've burned a few HD test disks with Toast (UDF).

I created the 1080P/24 MPEGs using an AVS script to inverse telecine a 1080i transport stream and feed that to TMPGEnc. I took that MPEG2 and AC3 file to DVDSP and it happily created a HVDVD_TS folder, and that folder plays fine with the Apple DVD player (In its full 1080P goodness) from both the hard drive, and from a DVD -R DL disc in the external firewire +/- DL burner.

Now, I take that DVD over to Fry's and shove it in their BD player, and it just ignores it. Something tells me it is the media, and not the contents. At the moment, I don't have any +R DL media. I guess I could try single layer media, but my goal was to try and split large transport streams into 2 DL discs and be able to play them on my Mac (DVD Player 4.6.5), on a PC (with HVDVD_TS support) or a HDDVD or BD stand-alone player.

[Trahald]

The directory structure of bluray is a bit different. hddvd is much closer to dvd and hvDVD_TS is the equiv of VIDEO_TS..

here is the folder structure of a blu ray disk i just made...

+root
CERTIFICATE
BDMV
AUXDATA
BDJO
JAR
META
STREAM
00000.m2ts 1,302 KB
BACKUP
CLIPINF
00000.clpi 1 KB
PLAYLIST
00000.mpls 1 KB
index.bdmv 1 KB
MovieObject.bdmv 1 KB
CLIPINF
00000.clpi 1 KB
PLAYLIST
00000.mpls 1 KB
index.bdmv 1 KB
MovieObject.bdmv 1 KBBDMV looks like the name of the main folder .. it was a small project with no menu 1mb video

[easy2Bcheesy]

Squished: er, DVD Studio Pro only makes HD-DVDs, not Blu-Ray disks so it's not surprising it doesn't work on the BD player!

Trahald: Yes, I see a similar structure on Blu-Ray. How did you author the disk? What tools did you use?

[Trahald]

ulead DVD Movie Factory 5. and an mpeg file :). its a nice basic authoring package that supports bd and hddvd . it will generate a basic menu for you ( for the project directory i listed i didnt use the option.) It also has built in burning capacity. its good for its price ($50 bux usd)

[Squished]

Squished: er, DVD Studio Pro only makes HD-DVDs, not Blu-Ray disks so it's not surprising it doesn't work on the BD player!

Trahald: Yes, I see a similar structure on Blu-Ray. How did you author the disk? What tools did you use?

Wow. Quite a significant difference. I wonder where I got the notion that the two used similar data structures.

Thanks for the clarification.

[easy2Bcheesy]

Any more news on any HD-DVD or Blu-Ray solutions?

Is Nero authoring (shown at CES eight months ago!) anywhere nearer to being released? Has Apple released any further info on making HD-DVD authoring work properly on DVDSP? Or released any info on Blu-Ray authoring support since they are a big part of the Blu-Ray Consortium?

It's annoying that the tools are out there but nobody wants to release them.

[Cheesus]

I've been following this thread with some interest for a while which is coming in handy now as I've been asked by a client to produce an HD DVD. I share the same lack of hardware problem that you do though easy2Bcheesy.


The client I'm producing the HD DVD for is buying a lot of the players in but I'm not sure when, and if, I'll have access to one of these Toshiba players. Which is kind of stupid and asking for trouble but hey who I'm to argue ;) .

I'll be creating the disc with DVDSP4 and burning onto a normal red laser DVD.

I'm in Australia so the first problem is where the client (who annoyingly I'm not in direct contact with) is sourcing these HD DVD players from. I want to produce 1080 24p (not 23.96p which seems to be endlessly, and confusingly, referred to as 24p) or 25p content but am not sure if either of these frame rates will play on the US Toshiba players (if that's what I'm getting).

Secondly when encoding, what is a good quality but safe bitrate for VBR MPEG2? I was going to set an average bit rate at 24Mbps with a max at 28Mbps which I think is within specs.

I would really appreciate anybody's input here that has any experience with authoring HD DVD's.

PS I googled both DVDSP HD DVD and DDVDSP Blu-ray and both results had this thread in the top two listings. I think that says it all about info out there from apple on support of these two formats with DVDSP. I'll be amazed if there is any further development with HD DVD and wouldn't be holding my breath about blu-ray DVDSP appearing in the near future. Obviously these new Hi Def DVD formats are way more complicated than DVD, especially the interactive versions, and I fully expect the sonic authoring solutions first releases to be incredibly buggy (although would still dearly love to get my hands on them). I'm amazed they've got them out so quickly anyway.

[easy2Bcheesy]

I may be wrong, but I think you'll have to use 23.96p and while DVD Studio Pro will be fine for MPEG2 encoding and authoring, it does not work on the following:

1. AVC Encoding - isn't to HD-DVD spec and just creates a slideshow
2. Menus - menus appear but navigation and highlights don't work.

So if you create a disk that simply runs footage, fine. Otherwise you're stuck really.

The total lack of word from Apple about when they are going to fix this is frankly absurd. I would buy a Mac and the Final Cut Studio NOW if the thing bloody worked properly ;)

[Cheesus]

Thanks

Will let you know how I go.

I'm only using DVDSP because it's the only thing I can use. Don't normally get on with it but when needs must and all that.... Have been using a Mac on and off for a while now but don't think I'll ever truly be converted