DVD Rebuilder problems (file output size)

[Darquis]

I'm currently having two major problems with DVD Rebuilder. One, I get error 6, the buffer overflow error (but I'm going to try reripping the disc with another ap instead of DVD Shrink, maybe that will fix it), but it's the other I'm really concerned about.

On several discs (the one with which I am currently working is Gilgamesh D6, NTSC), I will run it through (I prefer to use One Pass VBR) Rebuilder, and the output files will be larger than the input. I've checked, it's definitely only my output files, and my VIDEO_TS folder is bigger than the original source. I've tried this v 1.09, 1.09.2 and 1.09.3 (however the second and third releases of 1.09 were designated) as well as a couple different versions of CCE with each..all come out with the same problem.

Any suggestions for this? (or for the overflow problem (it's come up under the same circumstances as my overesized file problem)

[jdobbs]

1. The error 0006 isn't a problem in DVD-RB. It is DVD-RB telling you that there is a problem in your rip. It usually means there is illegal MPEG "garbage" in the stream.

2. You need to upgrade. The latest version of DVD-RB (v1.09.3) includes considerable code created to find and automatically correct most of the causes of 0006 errors. It also doesn't have a 0006 error any more.

3. If you are seeing oversizing -- it means you have misconfigured your encoder. If you post your REBUILDER.INI file we may be able to tell you what's wrong. Also make sure you haven't added any "TargetSectors=" settings.

4. Accuracy in output size is one of the weaknesses of One-Pass methods... but it still would never be larger than the source, so that points to encoder configuration problems.

[Darquis]

1) Ok, it may have been how I ripped it (using DVD Shrink). I'll try it with another ap today and see if that fixes it.

2) I could have sworn I got that error in 1.09.3, but since you designed the software, I'm sure you know better than me. I"ll switch back to that version today.

3) As soon as I reinstall I'll post the .ini...I know I did put in a target sectors =, but I also know it wasn't anything over DVD capacity (and I only did so as an attempt to correct this problem).

[jdobbs]

OPV isn't accurate enough to use a value above the default -- it is very likely that it will oversize if you try to raise TargetSectors and use OPV at the same time.

[Darquis]

Ok, I'll keep that in mind. Here's my Rebuilder.ini file, I just ran my problem disc through (original size, 6.77 gigs, output, 7.13 gigs).

[Options]
SkinVersion=12
Skin=Rebuilder Default
AudioDub=1
LogFile=1
QuEncHQ=0
QuEncodeType=0
iDCT=0
GOP=0
DCPrec=0
MainMatrix=Encoder Default
LowMatrix=Same as Main Feature
VLowMatrix=Same as Main Feature
ExtraMatrix=Same as Main Feature
HC_Quality=1
ProCoder_Quality=4
ReduceOpt=0
DVD_Label=NEW FOLDER
DVD_Name=NEW FOLDER.ISO
AdditionalOutput=1
MovieOnly=0
HalfD1=000000000000000
Convert_16_9=000000000000000
DisableInterlace=000000000000000
ConvertToYUY2=1
EncoderMinimized=1
CCE=3
Encode_Menus=1
OneClick=1
NoWarn=1
Completed=1
[Paths]
CCENEW=C:\Program Files\DVD-RB PRO\Encoders\cctspt.exe
MPEG2DEC=C:\Program Files\DVD-RB PRO\DGDecode.dll
Source=F:\NEW FOLDER\
Working=H:\
Output=F:\NEW FOLDER (2)\
HC=C:\Program Files\DVD-RB PRO\Encoders\HC018\HCenc_018.exe
QuEnc=C:\Program Files\DVD-RB PRO\Encoders\QuEnc.exe
REJIG=C:\Program Files\DVD-RB PRO\Encoders\ReJig.exe
ProCoder=C:\Program Files\DVD-RB PRO\Encoders\EclPro.exe
[Audio]
Remapping=
Selected=
[Subpictures]
Selected=
[CCEOptions]
OPV=1
VBR_bias=25
Quality_prec=16
eclPasses=2

[jdobbs]

Somebody has been playing with the settings...

1. DVD Rebuilder never loads CCE in the "Encoders" directory. It uses the installation directory created by CCE's installer.
2. The "Mode" setting is missing from the INI file.

I hope you're not using the cracked version. The reason I suspect you might be is that the one of which I'm aware included a cracked version of CCE installed in that directory.

The DVD-RB "crack" floating around was patched very poorly and incorrectly changed values in some inappropriate places (as was also true of the last two versions). The output results can be completely unpredictable...

[Rafterman]

I've also been having the output file sizes a bit different in the last 2 issues of DVD-RB Pro. I am now using DVD-RB Pro(1.09.3) with CCE. Now it's not a huge problem as the output is still of very high quality and plays without issue. However up until now my output file(DVD) was typically 4.33GB's. Now for instance when I processed the DVD "DOOM" which is 7.5GB in total and I selected Movie Only in Rebuilder/CCE I ended up with a file size of 3.95GB. The movie only portion of the DVD is approx 5.27GB. I also processed "Flight Plan"(movie only) and the output file size was 3.67GB's. All my settings are at default. I did consider if it's because I selected main movie only, the logic being it still takes into account the space that would have been taken up by the trailers and extras if they had been included but this does not seem likely. I just can't figure out why all the space available(4.33GB's) is not being utilised. Someone did suggest adding in the line Targetsectors=2500000 to the rebuilder ini file but others suggested this was not a good idea and if all my settings are at default I really should not have to alter .ini files.

[jdobbs]

In your case it's probably because of encoder saturation. When CCE determines that the output image reproduction is "perfect" it will not allocate any additional bandwidth -- no matter what bitrate you tell it to use. This is most likely to happen when you select "Movie Only".

But this isn't a bad thing. If adding additional size to the output won't improve the image, it serves no purpose.

[Rafterman]

JDobbs, appericate the rapid response. As I said the output is still its high quality product so its good to know all is well. I really did not want to go down the road of editing .ini files anyway.

[Darquis]

I have been using a newer version of CCE, as one (I thought) was released after the latest release of DVD Rebuilder. I instructed it to install in the Encoders folder (or moved it after the fact) just for ease of use on my own part. If that causes problems, let me know and I can move it back.

Don't know anything about "mode". Is that something I should add?

Anyway, with my oversize problem, I found a potential solution: Run the oversize through a second time. I'm not sure if this is totally safe to do, but when I did, it was down to about 5.2 gigs: much more reasonable. Do there tend to be any problems with that process?

Also, I tried reripping my questionable discs (Two Towers, Extend Edition, NTSC, D3 and D4). This time I used the newest version of DVD Fab Platinum. I still got the run time error 6 (overflow) on them. On a whim, I tried to use the freeware version of Rebuilder..and it worked. No idea why. The resulting output is undersized because I used One Pass, but it definitely worked.

The only reason I can come up with for this is that in the VTS that I get the error in, as far as I can tell, the only data contained is a bunch of stills..like 75 or so mb of them, at about 120 k per still

[JohnGalt]

Anyway, with my oversize problem, I found a potential solution: Run the oversize through a second time. I'm not sure if this is totally safe to do, but when I did, it was down to about 5.2 gigs: much more reasonable. Do there tend to be any problems with that process?

That's really not a good idea. Each time the video is lossily encoded (MPEG is a lossy format, like JPEG for images or MP3 -- mpeg2 layer 3 -- for music), artifacts will be introduced. When you reencode, the encoder will try to preserve artifacts that were introduced in an earlier encode. This is not only bad in that it preserves "errors," but it is also detrimental insofar as the encoder may waste precious bits preserving errors at the expense of preserving "real" detail, grain, etc.

Take a JPG on your computer, open it in an image editor, save it to a BMP. Open the BMP, save it as a JPG (let's say at 25% compression). Compare the quality of your original JPG and the new one. The new one will be worse. Still don't see a difference? Repeat the process on this new JPG. The artifacting will get progressively worse. Or you can do the same with audio. Rip a track off a CD, encode to MP3, output to WAV, encode to MP3 again. At any rate, the concept holds true for video, except that we are all already in a worse position than you are with your CD that you're ripping, insofar as your DVD is already lossily encoded video.

[Darquis]

Thanks for the response! I'll have to avoid that in the future..I think I may have to just run it through several passes (I know it gives good quality, it's just time consuming) on CCE instead.

Now, I just wanna try and figure out what's causing the overflow error..do lots of artwork or stills give problems?

[Oryeus]

I once had the same problem with Dvd-RB OPV.I came to realise not by troubleshooting but by experience that preprocessing,although not recommended yields a more accurate output size.Try using dvdremake basic or pro,i have been using it for years with dvd-rb with no problems.You might even find that after stripping extras,trailers etc.. and audio there might not be any need to encode,you did after stated you select movie only modewhen using dvd-rb.Hope this helps.

[Darquis]

Most of the time, I use that too, actually (I use basic). Unfortunately, it seems like it isn't having any effect on either of my problems (both in using or not using it) so I think I may just be stuck running it through 5-9 passes of CCE instead of using OPV. Not the end of the world.

Thanks for all the help so far (and if anyone thinks of anything else, I'll be glad to try) :)

[jdobbs]

I really have a hard time accepting that the number of passes is the cause. In my testing (a lot of it) the size of the output changes only very, very slightly between passes. Are you doing any kind of other processing on the video?

[Darquis]

The only reason I suggested multipass in CCE was because I've been using One Pass VBR instead, and I thought that might account for the oversize.

As for preprocessing, I've tried it both with using DVD Remake (basic) and not using it, and the only other ap I've used at all has been Daemon Tools (I got the file as an image to begin with and had to mount it)

[pg55555]

@Darquis

Usage of OPV is much likely to produce such undersize results as you are experiencing, specially for low Q values (= high quality): As Q can only be an integer, the diference between two close Q values is proportionally higher when the Q is small thatn when it is high:
The diference between Q=2 and Q=3 is 33% while between Q=20 and Q=21 isjust 5%.
So if the compression is small, your Q will be small too. Say that for a Q of 4 the prediction is that the output size is 4.5 Gb (slightly oversize), it will try Q=5, a 20% change. If size is proportional to the Qs (it is not), this would mean a 20% reduction in output size, say to 3.6 GB. This is probably what it is happening in your movie onlu¿y backups.

You can try VBR, but 2 passes would be enough (I actually use 3), and probably will get more accurate sizing

[jdobbs]

Even more than that. It all depends on the source. You may have a Q of 6 that will make a disc that is 4.21GB long and if you change it to 5 it will be 5.00GB long. So the choice is to accept a little undersizing or not write it to a DVD-R. It's the tradeoff you make for the time saved in a one pass encode.

The only way to get around that is to apply different Q values to different segments -- but that creates a very inconsistent output and degrades the quality of the overall backup. That's why I strongly disagree with that method of backup -- it is simply contrary to reason to sacrifice quality only so you can get a warm fuzzy in having reached the edge of the disc...

I could very easily make DVD Rebuilder fill the disc every time... but I'm more concerned about quality and doing it right than fuzzies...

[Darquis]

Sure, that makes sense enough (to a guy who is no expert, mind you). I managed to solve my oversize problem too :D.

One last question

Does one pass in HC work in a similar manner to one pass in CCE? I'm not necessarily interested in all the technical details (as some of this goes a bit over my head), but more do they do the process the same/come up with similar quality?

[jdobbs]

The HC version works differently, it outputs using constant quantization. But it does have a little more granularity through its use of floating point values for CQ.

[rudolfo2]

Backed the DVD twice,first time the ripper was Decrypter,settings were Full Backup but lenght was only 3.93GB and Nero gave me Relocating Files Failure.Second attemp:ripper was DVDFab,same settings,the lenght was again short ( 4.31 GB ) but everything else is OK.How come the DVD RB reacts so differently on the ripping program and why such big differences in lenght ??

[jdobbs]

It sounds like you had decrypter in one of its modes that didn't copy the entire disc. DVD-RB will act exactly the same on the same source.

Your burning software should NOT be relocating files... use DVD-RB to create the ISO and burn it with ImgBurn or Decrypter and you'll save yourself headaches that are caused by burning software that tries to outthink the authoring software.

[rudolfo2]

It sounds like you had decrypter in one of its modes that didn't copy the entire disc. DVD-RB will act exactly the same on the same source.

Your burning software should NOT be relocating files... use DVD-RB to create the ISO and burn it with ImgBurn or Decrypter and you'll save yourself headaches that are caused by burning software that tries to outthink the authoring software.

Decrypter is set to File mode and when finished 0 files were skipped.

[jdobbs]

Well, all I can say is that something went wrong. DVD-RB tells the encoder what bitrate to use -- and it can't calculate two different bitrates on the same source if the settings are the same.

If you are using the CCEAQM "hidden" setting, I've had reports that it has sizing problems if you don't do 3 passes. I personally don't use CCEAQM.

[rudolfo2]

Well, all I can say is that something went wrong. DVD-RB tells the encoder what bitrate to use -- and it can't calculate two different bitrates on the same source if the settings are the same.

If you are using the CCEAQM "hidden" setting, I've had reports that it has sizing problems if you don't do 3 passes. I personally don't use CCEAQM.

I only use HCEncoder set to Best.