New HD Format - AVCHD (By Sony and Panasonic)

[leowai]

Is this only for MPEG-4 Part 10 video? This video format uses AC-3 or Linear PCM for high-quality sound (stated in the link)! Will this be new container for AVC video?
:
:
The interesting part is that both Sony and Panasonic are backing Blu-Ray. Yet, the AVCHD format does not incorporate Blu-Ray technology. One would think that Sony would use this as an advantage to get its Blu-Ray technology into more consumer homes, much like they are doing with their Playstation 3. However, there is talk of the two formats (Blu-Ray and AVCHD) coexisting together. Sony also stated that since the two technologies use the same compression methods, “you should be able to play back an AVCHD disk on a Blu-Ray disc player.”

http://www.neowin.net/index.php?act=view&id=33183

[foxyshadis]

So it'll be the new (S)VCD... Well, I'm glad, it'd cut burn costs way down, and avc 720p will look at least as good as current dvds. 1080p on dvd... We'll have to see if that looks better than SVCD or not.

No AAC support unfortunately, but then again AAC is absent from HD specs too. Apparently only LPCM and AC3 are in the spec, perhaps AC3+ and DTS as well, since they're part of bluray.

Supposedly they're working on SD cards too (make sense, they're bigger than DVDs now!), my main reaction was "Wait, you mean Sony isn't pushing MMC down our gullets?" =p

[leowai]

More information from DailyTech:
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=2278

Specification in table:
http://images.dailytech.com/nimage/1406_large_avchd_specs.png

[b9AcE]

At the risk of getting off topic a bit earlier than usual, I have to ask:
Why do all these new HD-standards keep avoiding AAC?

[foxyshadis]

Because then George Lucas wouldn't get his cut of every DVD made, and who wants to piss him off?

Actually I think it's just because audio quality is nearly about as good as it'll get when many DVDs use 512 or 640 kbps AC3/DTS, 2-6 mbps AC3+, or even LPCM; even if you could get the same quality at half the bitrate, or much better quality than they could at 1/4, it doesn't actually increase the quality, so the primary incentive isn't there. And there are many optical AC3/PCM SPDIF decoder systems available to prevent signal degradation from interference, but AAC and MP3 are lacking in that area. Of course if AAC actually made it into a standard, that would change, it isn't that much harder to decode. =\

[_ck_]

What's really silly is that Divx could have beat every HD format to the market by a year with existing chips and standard DVD9 format.

All they needed to do was use the existing h.263 standard and keep the total bitrate just under 4000kbps or so and most (non-ESS) chipsets would support 1280x720p or even 1920x1080i on the better ones. They could have offered svideo output and eventually HDMI as some models are now.

But without DRM ability I guess Hollywood wasn't interested.

[SeeMoreDigital]

... and most (non-ESS) chipsets would support 1280x720p or even 1920x1080i on the better ones. Actually no they can't.

Currently only Sigma's EM8620L chip-set offers playback of (high-def) 1280x720 and 1920x1080 resolutions, in stand-alone players/devices.

MediaTek, Vaddis and ESS only offer standard-def capable chip-sets supporting maximum resolutions of 720x576 (414,720 total) pixels.


Cheers

[siddharthagandhi]

This codec....will it remain a private codec or will it be released for public use?

[SeeMoreDigital]

This codec....will it remain a private codec or will it be released for public use?I don't understand!

[layer3maniac]

:confused:
Sony and Panasonic announced today that they have co-developed a new high definition DVD format created specifically for camcorders. The new format, dubbed AVCHD, captures video onto 8cm DVDs using the MPEG4 AVC/H.264 compression system.

Camcorders? 8cm DVDs?

[foxyshadis]

It's sony's pet proprietary dvd, they've been making mpeg2 dvd camcorders for a while now, since mini-cd has been fading away. This extension may well never make it to mainstream because of that...

[bond]

yet another pseudo format by sony?

sounds pretty much like what you could also do with hd dvd

[unmei]

The only good thing in that news i see in "Sony also stated that since the two technologies use the same compression methods, “you should be able to play back an AVCHD disk on a Blu-Ray disc player.”". OK so sony tells us basicly, "as long as its avc on your disc, BD players will be able to deal with it" -- cool, probably too cool to be that simple. It would already be great if there was no fixed stupid directory folder naming like on DVDs. With a limited set of resolutions et all i can live (well, if i ever get a BD device in near future anyway..).

[_ck_]

Actually no they can't.

Currently only Sigma's EM8620L chip-set offers playback of (high-def) 1280x720 and 1920x1080 resolutions, in stand-alone players/devices.

MediaTek, Vaddis and ESS only offer standard-def capable chip-sets supporting maximum resolutions of 720x576 (414,720 total) pixels.

Thanks for the info. I can always count on you to set me straight - appreciated!

With all the tricks it can do I suspect my next player will be EM8620L chipset based, I just hope they can be made eventually for $100 or less!

[siddharthagandhi]

"I don't understand!"

The article describes that there is a new AVC codec used in this format.

[bond]

avc is not a codec, its a format every avc compliant codec is compliant with :D

[SeeMoreDigital]

Indeed... As long as the "new AVC codec" conforms to MPEG-4 Part 10 I fail to understand what can be so new about it!

Some of us on the forum have been saying for quite some time that there's no reason why MPEG-4 AVC can't be burned onto regular DVD (instead of Blu-ray/HD DVD) blank media.... Seems like somebody has finally taken the hint.

Now, if Sony started manufacturing DVD/HDD combo's with MPEG-4 AVC recording, that would be really useful.... but I highly doubt they'll ever do it because they want to force feed us with Blu-ray/HDD recorders :scared:


Cheers

[siddharthagandhi]

But isn't this a different AVC codec? Like x264 and Nero Digital. Two different codecs....with different quality and compression algorithms and all that...

[darkavatar1470]

I actually quite like SVCDs before we got cheap DVD blanks & burners , (like, 3 years ago)
'cause max bitrate @ 30 min is pretty good enough for an episode of anime.....

so with the same reasoning, if standalones can play AVC off normal DVDs,
it might be a good compromise before the price of blu-ray/HD blanks comes down...

But then again, miniDVDs never worked for me.....
always lagging and way too short....

[SeeMoreDigital]

But isn't this a different AVC codec? Like x264 and Nero Digital. Two different codecs....with different quality and compression algorithms and all that...Both AVC encoders conform to "Part 10" of the MPEG-4 ISO/IEE 14496 specification, so "codec wise" they are the same!


Cheers

[GodofaGap]

I think siddharthagandhi means if the codec will be available for us to use. All h264 encoders follow the same standard and all streams should be decodable by any h264 decoder, but this does not mean that all h264 encoders produce the exact same output.

Since it is for camcorders I assume it will only be available on hardware chips, so not as a separate software. Although, I don't know if Sony has it's own AVC implementation and if the camcorder format would be limited to one implementation of AVC only. It could very well be that different camcorders also have different encoding chipsets, making the question siddharthagandhi posted a bit difficult to answer.

[SeeMoreDigital]

As far as I can see the proposed storage method (ie: AVC video with AC3 or PCM audio within .TS) is essentially the same as we Europeans will be getting for HDTV.... So it's hardly, a new HD format!


Cheers

[siddharthagandhi]

Godofagap- That's exactly what I mean. Just like the output video of x264 is different in terms of quality at a given bitrate than Nero Digital AVC (Ateme AVC), and the same for Sony AVC and MainConcept AVC and Xvid AVC, this new format was said to contain a new AVC HD codec made by Sony in the article. Will we be able to encode in it, public release of the codec?

[foxyshadis]

If it's AVC, then any AVC codec can encode it, barring certain restrictions (interlaced, extended profile). Most likely sony would just rebrand someone else's codec anyway.

The encoding quality makes no difference when it comes to being able to play it back, when the same features are used. Unless sony chose to rebrand quicktime's decoder. Ick.

[DarkNite]

You just had to say it... Now you know it will come true! I can just see it now:

"Sony releases next generation AVCHD camcorders bundled with QuickTime Pro (trial version)."

[siddharthagandhi]

"If it's AVC, then any AVC codec can encode it, barring certain restrictions (interlaced, extended profile). Most likely sony would just rebrand someone else's codec anyway.

The encoding quality makes no difference when it comes to being able to play it back, when the same features are used. Unless sony chose to rebrand quicktime's decoder. Ick."


The article said a totally NEW codec was used for the disc. Like x264. A NEW codec. Either I am miscomprehending or you are not reading.

[robU*4]

Is this only for MPEG-4 Part 10 video? This video format uses AC-3 or Linear PCM for high-quality sound (stated in the link)! Will this be new container for AVC video?


http://www.neowin.net/index.php?act=view&id=33183

From what I read, the container will be MPEG Transport Stream (.ts).

[GodofaGap]

@siddharthagandhi:

I don't see the article mentioning a new codec at all, only that AVCHD is a new format. But with this the storage method of AC3+AVC in TS (?) on a DVD is meant, not a new video codec.

[kururu]

Errr... I think you all are misinterpreting the article. It's meant to be a replacement for HDV. Not for broadcast or movies, but for prosumer camcorders.

[SeeMoreDigital]

The article said a totally NEW codec was used for the disc. Like x264. A NEW codec. Either I am miscomprehending or you are not reading.Like GodofaGap mentioned I don't see anywhere in that article where it says "new codec". Even discribing Sony's AVCHD as a "new format" is purely marketing hype... nothing more!

I know... lets just think of Sony's AVCHD as being "new" to Sony.... Even though it's based around the same codec/specification some of us here have been playing around with for two years or so already!


Cheers

EDIT: In my opinion, Sony would have been better letting us capture to an high capacity memory stick instead of using an 80mm Mini DVD with an 1.4Gb capacity.... I take it these Blu-ray players will include a memory stick slot?

[CruNcher]

As i expected it and on the Professional Cams (HDCAM) they gonna replace it with AVC Losseless in the next years for sure :P now Microsoft is again 1 step behind with VC-1 on broadcast but still there is Panavision as a Partner for them, will be funny to see what happens in the coming years :D Definately the era of Film as we know it is slowly fading away too :)

[siddharthagandhi]

"Like GodofaGap mentioned I don't see anywhere in that article where it says "new codec". Even discribing Sony's AVCHD as a "new format" is purely marketing hype... nothing more!"

I quote:

"HD video using the above codec at twice the efficiency of the current MPEG 2 and MPEG4 codecs"

[SeeMoreDigital]

I give up!

[GodofaGap]

With "above codec" only the "MPEG4 AVC/H.264 compression system" can be meant, which is not that new or a codec. And it is said nowhere that Sony or Panasonic developed a new codec based on this standard. I think someone is trying to read a little too much in the article here. But this is for camcorders... would have been better placed in the hardware section methinks.

[siddharthagandhi]

Yea I probably misunderstood. But isn't AVC HD the same thing as an AVC encoded Blu-ray disc?

[Backwoods]

Sounds good to me. Like mentioned eariler, I hope Blu-Ray players play these discs back.

[siddharthagandhi]

The article said that they do playback in Blu-Ray Players.

[Backwoods]

Well there I go reading the thread instead of the article again. Nice to hear though.

[max-pain]

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060809/zooma268.htm

AVCHD files:

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060809/ezhqp1.m2ts
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060809/ezhqp2.m2ts
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060809/ezsm02.m2ts
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060809/ezsm03.m2ts

[pierdeux]

WMP refused, VLC player didnot show video, so ??

( XP Pro , lightweight CPU.. which plays WMV@ 9Mbps perfectly well...)

[vsv]

MPC ok

[SeeMoreDigital]

From what I can see, the AVCHD files max-pain has linked to are "interlaced" with a resolution of 1440x1080/88.

Media Player Classic (MPC) will be able to play them, provided you have the correct MPEG-4 AVC direct-show decoder and .TS parser/splitter installed and configured.


Cheers

[Backwoods]

MPC was crashing for me, which splitter are you using?

[Schmendrick]

With PowerDVD7 installed you will have codecs installed to be able to play this format. It is just a regular transportstream container like also used for DVB-S2 satellite transmission from ASTRA in europe containing an AVC/H.264 video and AC3 5.1 audio stream.

[SeeMoreDigital]

MPC was crashing for me, which splitter are you using?CoreAVC 1.1 Pro (which includes Haali's new .TS splitter) ;)

[bond]

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060809/zooma268.htm

AVCHD files:

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060809/ezhqp1.m2ts
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060809/ezhqp2.m2ts
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060809/ezsm02.m2ts
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060809/ezsm03.m2tsthanks a lot for the links! :)

the files are .ts with avc video and ac3 audio

the video streams cause problems for libavcodec as they use a paff/mbaff combination
they also use cabac, loop and 2 reference frames (b-frames?)

also the streams seem to somehow not work with mpeg4ip's h264_parse tool which might indicate a wrong bitstream?

[guada2]

Hello,

Media Player Classic (MPC) will be able to play them, provided you have the correct MPEG-4 AVC direct-show decoder and .TS parser/splitter installed and configured.

Nero Show Time Too, and plays it perfectly (better) than MPC with CoreAVC 1.1 (Two green bands on the top and bottom of the video).??????


the video streams cause problems for libavcodec as they use a paff/mbaff combination
they also use cabac, loop and 2 reference frames (b-frames?)

Bond, do you think it is only that?

[guada2]

Just 2 questions:

- it is possible to convert this format AVCHD (.m2ts) to AVI ?
- Does exist softwares able to deal with this file or to convert it in another format (DivX, Wmv, DVD, AVC....etc).

Thanks.

[bond]

.m2ts is yet again a new pseudo format from sony. it seems to be very similar to .ts, but something is wrong with the headers

[SeeMoreDigital]

.m2ts is yet again a new pseudo format from sony. it seems to be very similar to .ts, but something is wrong with the headersIndeed.... I'm still trying to get my head around the need for their .M2T file extension (as used in their MPEG-2 HD camcorders)!