4:3 DVD playback

[vlada]

I have a question regarding AR of DVD. If you have a standalone player and connect it to a 4:3 monitor, you'll usualy get a letterboxed video from 16:9 DVD. But if you play the same movie on a computer with 4:3 monitor or TV, you'll get a 16:9 windows. At least in all players I have tried - MPC, VLC, ViPlay (with DScaler 5 decoders). ViPlay with FFDShow MPEG-2 DVD decoder crashes.

You might think it doesen't make to much difference if the movie is letterboxed or not, but there are 2 things that annoy me. The first one are subtitles - they are displayed over active picture, but a standalone player would display them much lower in black borders. The other thing is the fact, that the colour of added black borders is usually little different then black stripes which are part of a 2,35:1 movie. If the borders would be added by a player or a decoder, it would be easier to set them to match the DVD.

Do you know any SW player which can play a DVD in a letterboxed 4:3 window? It would bw even better, if it could move subtitles up and down. Some standalone players can do it. Am I the only one who is complaining about it?

Thank you,
Vlada

P.S. Sorry for my poor English, I hope You understand what I ment to say.

[vlada]

No clues? Am I the only one who's complaining about no letterboxing of DVDs?

Also new VLC 0.8.5 has just been released. Unfortunately, it still doesn't letterboxing even for AVI files, which is a standard feature of most players and subtitle filters (FFDShow, VobSub, DivXG400). It is a great player but without letterboxing it is useless for me. :-(

[takeshimiyagawa]

Oh man, I've spent a summer trying to find a software that does just that.

I refuse to understand that such a player or decoder doesn't exist yet.
I don't know why some standalones let's you select 4:3 or 16:9 subpicture tracks while no playing software (other than some dvd authoring systems) let's you look at them.

[lrms]

Do you need DVD menus? Do you need a GUI?

If you answered "no" to both questions, maybe mplayer could be what you needed (http://oss.netfarm.it/mplayer-win32.php).

mplayer dvd://1 -slang en -vf expand=720:::1:4/3 -vo gl2

I use gl2 output not only because its usually faster than directx output in my system (using a X700 Pro), but also because directx ouput and expand doens't seem to fit well toghether (at least in the builds I use). WORKAROUND: Add a forced software colorspace conversion like:

mplayer dvd://1 -vf yuy2,expand=720::::1:4/3 -slang en -vo directx

Of course, it will also letterbox AVIs, MKVs, etc (like ffdshow do with any DirectShow based player).

My $.02

[striker9]

Do you know any SW player which can play a DVD in a letterboxed 4:3 window? It would bw even better, if it could move subtitles up and down. Some standalone players can do it. Am I the only one who is complaining about it?

PowerDVD, WinDVD, MPC, etc, etc.

[vlada]

striker9> How would you do it in MPC?

lrms> Thank you for this idea. I will try it.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Absolutely no problems here when using MediaPlayer Classic (and it's own filters).

Just about ever MPEG-2 decoder filter I know can correctly handle aspect ratio signalling, regardless of the monitor shape!


Cheers

[vlada]

SeeMoreDigital> I think You didn't understand my problem. It is probably because of my weak english. I don't have problems with AR signalling, it works correctly. But if I have a 16:9 movie with subtitles, I would expect MPC (or any other player) to letterbox the movie to 4:3. FFDShow, VSFilter, DivXG400 and most video players are doing it when playing AVI movies with subtitles automatically.

Please see these 2 screenshots: mplayer (http://jech.webz.cz/samples/mplayer.jpg) and MPC (http://jech.webz.cz/samples/mpc.jpg). Do you see the difference in subtitles position? The mplayer's output is what I was asking about. But the subtitles don't look good. I don't know why.

[takeshimiyagawa]

Yes, they obviously didn't understanded the problem.

To your knowledge, DVDs with a video 16:9 can (and usually) haves TWO completely different subpictures, one for 4:3 standard TV displaying, which is what most standalone players uses. And the other subpicture is for when playing in a 16:9 TV, or, in all software players I know.

The real point is, some standalones let's you choose what of those two subpictures you want to use, while no software player I know let's you choose anything else than the 16:9 subpicture.


Note that this only applies to 16:9 video, because 4:3 videos can have only one subpicture, by the DVD standard.


Anyone knows at least any software player to see the other subpicture stream while playing the video?

[SeeMoreDigital]

Please see these 2 screenshots: mplayer (http://jech.webz.cz/samples/mplayer.jpg) and MPC (http://jech.webz.cz/samples/mpc.jpg). Do you see the difference in subtitles position? The mplayer's output is what I was asking about. But the subtitles don't look good. I don't know why.I do see the difference, however unlike with MPlayer, your MPC screen-grap was not captured with MPC set to "full screen"...


Cheers

[vlada]

I think I noticed in Muxman you can have 3 types of subtitles for a 16:9 video - for real 16:9, for letterboxed video and for cropped video.

When I started working with SubtitleCreator and Muxman, I had no idea what are these 3 types of subtitles for. I even tried to ask here on Doom9 forums, but I didn't get any useful answer (which is quite unusual here). So I did some tests myself, of course I had to use a standalone player. I didn't have a standalone player with cropping options so I just tried real 16:9 and leterboxed 4:3. First I thought I need to put the subtitles to the very bottom of the screen for 4:3 video, because I had only experiences with SW players before. But then I noticed, that the player puts subtitles in the letterboxed part. Of course they went out of screen because of a cropping that CRT TVs produce. Then I put the same subtitles for 16:9 and letterbox and it works perfectly. Since then I'm wondering why no SW player except of MPlayer can do this.

When creating a DVD, I now use the same subtitles for WS and LB modes and it works perfectly on standalones. I add a new subtitle track for SW players, which has the subtitles moved up to the bottom of the picture.

So what I wanted to say: The subtitles tracks for LB a WS are usually the same, but players move the subtitles in LB mode out of active picture.

[vlada]

I do see the difference, however unlike with MPlayer, your MPC screen-grap was not captured with MPC set to "full screen"...

Cheers

MPlayer wasn't in fullscreen either. MPC is in classic PAL widescreen (1024x576) and Mplayer image is letterboxed to 4:3 (1024x768). Even if I switch MPC to fullscreen, it won't move the subtitles down. So I just get black borders on top and bottom, but the subtitles are still placed over active (16:9) picture.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Okay, I see what you mean now!

Here's a screen grab of what I see when playing a 16:9 anamorphic DVD (with an movie aspect ratio of 2.35:1) in Media Player Classic: -

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/5634/mpcviaa43monitor7vt.jpg


Here's what the same scene looks like on my 16:9 TV: -

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/816/1695ej.jpg


Here's what the same scene looks like when I set my TV to 4:3: -

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/7388/432jy.jpg


In essence, Media Player Classic positions the subtitles in the same place as the would appear on a 16:9 TV.


Cheers

[sheppaul]

while no software player I know let's you choose anything else than the 16:9 subpicture.

Isn't it already possible in MPC?

[takeshimiyagawa]

So what I wanted to say: The subtitles tracks for LB a WS are usually the same, but players move the subtitles in LB mode out of active picture.

That's almost right, but if you use the same subpicture stream for WS and LB. It works as expected, but with one pitfall: either the WS or the LB subpicture stream will appear stretched or squashed.

For the record I work everyday making subtitles for DVDs, and I always render two different subpictures for LB and WS.


Look at the shots posted by SeeMoreDigital: Media Player Classic and other software players uses the WS subpicture always.

In the case of SeeMoreDigital shots, you can note that the subpicture was only one for both LB and WS, so you can see why the 4:3 TV subtitle looks right, while the WS looks squashed.
That's why I always render two different subpictures for WS and LB each with their according aspect ratio correction.



Now something to remove some misunderstandings (and add complexity :D );
There are two different concepts:

-Subpicture tracks
-Subpicture streams

Subpicture tracks are the real, rendered images, that you provide to the authoring program.
You can select for each subpicture track, what flags will apply to it. You have three flags: LetterBox, WideScreen and CRopped.

And you can indeed, toggle the LB and WS flags for the same subpicture track, or whatever combination the resolution accepts.
Or, as I recommend, you can have one subpicture track for LB and another different for WS.

Subpicture streams are the subpictures that your SW/HW player let's you select.
As an example, suppose you have 2 subpicture tracks (one for LB and one for WS), when authoring you can:

-Make think the player that you have only 1 subpicture (you do so by selecting "use 1 subpicture stream").
-Make think the player that you have 2 subpictures (this is what Scenarist does by default).

The problem with the later, is that you can indeed see, in MediaPlayerClassic or any SW/HW player both subpictures, but you can't select the two.
You can only select the one according to what your player is configured. As has been said, MPC will let you select only the 16:9 subpicture, if you click the other nothing happens.

Most cheap standalone players in the other hand, only let's you select the 4:3 subpicture, no matter what TV you have.

And the best of all, most not-so-cheap standalone players, let's you select one subpicture stream or another, but acordingly if you have configured the player for output to a 4:3 or a 16:9 TV, as shown by the SeeMoreDigital' shots.

Hope that clears a bit the panorama. :)

[sheppaul]

if you click the other nothing happens.

Are you sure?
I've tried it and I can see the difference between the two.
When I click the second thing in my above screenshot, the ratio of the vobsub subtitles seems to change.

[vlada]

takeshimiyagawa> You're right. I haven't noticed that the subs have different AR before. I thought, that the subtitles will be added to picture before stretching it horizontaly. But if I think about, it's quite logical. The players probably work like this: If you have a 16:9 movie and 4:3 subpicture, the player will first create a 720x432 movie from the originaly 576 lines tall picture. Then it will add 72 pixels wide borders to top and bottom. In the end 720x576 subpicture track is added. This is then handled to a D/A converter.

Then on a TV the subtitle track has AR 4:3 so it is only lightly horizontaly stretched. But a WS subtitle track is stretched to 16:9 AR. So from today on I'll create 2 subtitle tracks for each stream too. Thanks for pointing this out.

I'm talking all the time about PAL, the same applies to NTSC too.

sheppaul> If I find some free time, I'll try it. You can use different color for the 2 tracks and it will be clear whether MPC displays the LB track or not.

[Waleska]

Is it you not being practical or me missing something big time? :D

Modify the vertical value.
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/8527/mpc2he.png

[Awatef]

PowerDVD 7 should do what you're looking for.
Look at this: http://www.cyberlink.com/english/products/powerdvd/7/smart.jsp
under the "Read-It-Clearly..." section.

[vlada]

If anyone is interested I've created a test DVD (http://jech.webz.cz/soubory/dvd.7z) (the server has a bad connectivity, so you'd better use a download manager). The most interesting part is the 2nd movie. It has 2 subtitle tracks:
1) A white track for WIDE mode.
2) A yellow track for LB, PS and 4:3 modes.

[vlada]

Just today I tried PowerDVD 7. And yes it has a letterboxing support, but only in fullscreen (bad for somebody using theater mode). But the worse thing is, that it crashes my computer when going to/from fullscreen. So PowerDVD is not a solution for me.

MPlayer works little bit better (at least it doesn't crash my computer :cool:), but it has another problems. For example it says the subtitles are loaded, but I just don't see them. The same DVD works fine in VLC and MPC. Here is the console output of MPlayer:

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/4972/mplayerty3.png

Another problem is, that the subtitles have a poor quality. have sometimes different color (white instead of yellow), seems to be partially transparent and the worst thing are black vertical lines which are displayed over some of the subtitles. About every 5th subtitle of every movie is affected by this problem:

http://jech.webz.cz/samples/mplayer.jpg

Do you have any solution for my problems? Or do you know any other players I should try? It would be even better if the player would allow me to place the subtitles wherever I want them. I know that DVD subtitles are basically just overlayed pictures, but it shouldn't be so difficult to move them around and even better, change their color and resize them. But that's just a dream :mad:

[Liisachan]

Did you try relative-to-screen and relative-to-frame in MPC, that is options-subtitles-default style-(check box) position sub...?
If your monitor is like 4:3 and if you select relative-to-screen in the full screen mode, the sub positioning will be like 4:3. At least for SSA/ASS

[setarip_old]

It would be even better if the player would allow me to place the subtitles wherever I want them.This can be EASILY accomplished with DVD SubEdit. And moving your subtitles to an EVEN numbered vertical position will eliminate the "scanline" effect that your image shows...

[vlada]

Liisachan
This option is only valid for text subtitles, not for DVD.

setarip_old
I would have to recreate the DVD and furthermore it won't help with displaying subtitles anyway. You can't position subtitles on DVD outside a picture.

[sillKotscha]

setarip_old
I would have to recreate the DVD and furthermore it won't help with displaying subtitles anyway. You can't position subtitles on DVD outside a picture.

DVDSubEdit (http://download.videohelp.com/DVDSubEdit/) works with vob files or sup files (created for example by PgcDemux, or VobEdit) and does not require any demuxing/remuxing (it works directly inside the VOB files, and processing is quasi instantaneous).

[setarip_old]

setarip_old
I would have to recreate the DVD and furthermore it won't help with displaying subtitles anyway. You can't position subtitles on DVD outside a picture.I'd suggest you explore the program and read its documentation, rathere than presume to know what it is or isn't capable of doing...

[sheppaul]

For a theater mode using overlay mixer, a blank area should be inserted for letterboxing. I can't confirm but try The KMPlayer. There is a 4:3 extending menu which creates blank area forcibly. I don't know well if it works with dvd subtitles but there is an option to control idx/sub position too (may not work).

[rvm]

In mplayer is easy to add black borders where subtitles would appear: -vf-add expand=:::::4/3

[sheppaul]

Generally, it is not a required procedure if it is not for a theater mode of ati using overlay mixer as it is possible to draw subtitles to VMR/Overlay surface. MPlayer lacks the function to draw subtitles to VMR or even overlay surface. The subtitle output of MPlayer is rather basic compared to others like MPC or The KMPlayer.

The rendering of subtitles

MPC --> VMR
VSfilter --> Image
The KMPlayer --> VMR/Overlay/Image

[vlada]

setarip_old
I didn't know the program works directly on VOBs. But it doesn't change anything on the fact, that you can't author a DVD with subtitles outside movie area. So it is not possible to solve my problem with any (re)authoring tool. It needs to be solved during playback.

sheppaul
I tried KMPlayer before, letterboxing only works for AVI files, not for DVDs. Just like in every other player (except of MPlayer). MPlayer is drawing subtitles directly into the movie AFAIK.

rvm
I already wrote it works for me in MPlayer, but there are other problems with MPlayer as I already mentioned above.

I hoped ffdshow will be able to letterbox the DVD and then draw external text subtitles on top of the movie, but for some strange reason letterboxing doesn't work in ffdshow when used as a postprocessing filter for DVD playback (in MPC).

[setarip_old]

@vladayou can't author a DVD with subtitles outside movie area.Please post an example of what you mean by this.

With DVD SubEdit, you can place your subtitles anywhere on the visible frame...

[vlada]

As you certainly know, most DVDs are anamorphic 16:9. It means, that the picture has a resolution of 720x576 (in PAL), but is displayed as 1024x576. The subtitles are displayed over the original movie area and stretched together with video. It looks like this:

http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/9270/169rr8.jpg

What I want is a player, which will first stretch the movie to 16:9, then append black borders to match screen AR (4:3) and finaly add subtitles so they are below active picture. It should look like this:

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/3646/lbmr6.jpg

Almost every standalone player can do it, but except of PowerDVD and Mplayer no other SW player can letterbox DVDs.

[foxyshadis]

Well, MPC can as well. Also, VSFilter has a letterbox option, so you could do it in any other directshow player. Not exactly sure how well they deal with DVD subs, I can't stand vobsubs and always rip them before watching.

[vlada]

foxyshadis
Of course, just about every player and filter can letterbox, except of VLC. But not when playing DVDs. Even if I ripped the subtitles to SRT and use ffdshow as postprocessing filter when playing DVDs, it won't letterbox the movie. For over 2 years I'm lookin for any working solution, but I found nothing.

[setarip_old]

Of course, just about every player and filter can letterbox, except of VLC. But not when playing DVDs.I want to make sure I understand you correctly.

Are you saying you believe that VLC CANNOT letterbox DVDs?

If so, I believe you are mistaken. From the VLC "Video" dropdown menu, you can click on either "Aspect Ratio" or "Crop" - and select "4:3".

If you mean something else, please explain...

[foxyshadis]

I see what you mean, it seems MPC/VSFilter can't read subs right off a DVD or in vobs, they have to be broken out into idx/sub first. That's a pain.

[HeadBangeR77]

I see what you mean, it seems MPC/VSFilter can't read subs right off a DVD or in vobs, they have to be broken out into idx/sub first. That's a pain.
The guys from ffdshow try-outs have just fixed DVD subtitles support (there was either no support or a trivial bug, that prevented subs from being displayed, can't recall atm), so I'm wondering if letterboxing from there will work. Gonna try that myself soon. ;)

[vlada]

setarip_old
In VLC if you select 4:3, the video will be stretched to 4:3. Cropping works too, but this is not what I'm looking for. I want black borders to be added to bottom and top of video. Just look at the screenshots I posted, they are both from ffdshow with turned off/on letterboxing.

foxyshadis
Maybe Haali can do something about it now that his splitter supports MPEG PS.

HeadBangeR77
I already tried that yesterday and it doesn't work :-(

[sillKotscha]

I want black borders to be added to bottom and top of video. Just look at the screenshots I posted, they are both from ffdshow with turned off/on letterboxing.

well, it does work for you with ffdshow - I don't get your point as your pictures show that you are able to do what you want a player to do...

what part of your question I don't get... I'm a bit lost now

[vlada]

sillKotscha
Almost all players (except of VLC) are able to do letterboxing for all formats except of DVD. So my problem is: Which player (if possible free) can letterbox DVDs?

So far I found only PowerDVD, which crashes my whole system, and MPlayer, which corrupts the subtitles.