FILM look on NTSC cameras, can it be done?

[Chainmax]

I remember that one of the advices given on the "FILM look on PAL cameras" was to set shutter speed to 1/50. Would setting shutter speed on an NTSC camera to 1/60 give the same result? Also, on what kind of occasions having such a shutter speed would be detrimental and how?

[scharfis_brain]

setting the PAL camera to 1/50 sec shutter isn't enough. One additional needs to deinterlace the video to 25 fps.

for NTSC it is much more difficult to achieve a proper film-look:

- set the cam to 1/120 sec shutter.
- bob-deinterlace the video to 59.94 fps.
- do a motion compensated framerate conversion to the double framerate : 119.88 fps
- blur three frames together
- select every 5th frame

so you can see, with PAL cameras you can achieve a much better (higher resolution) film like image while having easier processing.

[Chainmax]

Yeah, but PAL cameras are much more expensive than NTSC ones in the US. In any case, these methods use either deinterlacing or bobbing. I think I prefer to retain motion smoothness by keeping it interlaced.

[Chainmax]

By the way, are you sure shutter speed should be set to 1/120 and not 1/60?

[Chainmax]

The script would be something like this:


AVISource("X:\myDVSource.avi")

Interp = SeparateFields().EEDI2(field=2)
TDeint(mode=1,order=0,edeint=Interp)

mvflowfps(vb=?,vf=?,num=60000,den=1001)

Blur three frames together?

SelectEvery(5,0)

right? I don't know how to set the vf and vb switches nor how to blur three frames together, how do I do that?

[scharfis_brain]

AVISource("X:\myDVSource.avi")

securedeint()
mvflowfps(vb=?,vf=?,num=120000,den=1001)

temporalsoften(1,255,255,mode=2)

SelectEvery(5,0)

[Chainmax]

Aren't your first two steps deinterlacing+fps change instead of bobbing+fps change like you recommended me? In any case, what do I set vf and vb to?

[scharfis_brain]

Aren't your first two steps deinterlacing+fps change instead of bobbing+fps change like you recommended me?

I do not understand. Above I wrote: "... bob-deinterlace..."
and securedeint() is a bobber. So what do you mean?

In any case, what do I set vf and vb to?Please read the documentation of mvtools on fizicks site.
I don't like to quote the documentation here.

[Chainmax]

Oh, I though securedeint was a deinterlacer, my bad :o.
I'll read the mvtools info, thanks :).

[edit]mm...the readme lists vb and vf as arguments but doesn't explain them :confused:.

[Chainmax]

I tried this:

SecureDeint()

vf=last.mvanalyse(isb=false,blksize=16, truemotion=true)
vb=last.mvanalyse(isb=true,blksize=16, truemotion=true)

MVFlowFPS(vb,vf,num=120000,den=1001)

TemporalSoften(1,255,255,mode=2)

SelectEvery(5,0)

And keep getting an "access violation" error.

[scharfis_brain]

try to use converttoyv12() after securedeint()

alternatively you may use motion_12Dec05.dll & motionprotectedfps.avs http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=750037#post750037 instead of mvtools.

[Chainmax]

I tried using it right after securedeint and on the vf and vb lines and still get the same error message. I'll try those other tools instead.

[Chainmax]

This is really weird, your SuperResolution script, which worked when posting the last screenshot, doesn't work anymore either. I have the latest Avisynth beta and MVTools v1.1.1

[scharfis_brain]

so you need to figure out what has changed.

btw.: had you success with motionprotectedfps() ?

[Chainmax]

I haven't tried it yet, been busy with other things.

[Chainmax]

This is weird: I downgraded Avisynth from 2.57b3 to 2.56a and I can now load your superresolution script, but am still unable to open other scripts that use mvflowfps :confused:.

By the way, I remember using motionprotectedfps once and it not giving me acceptable results, so I'll pass on it.

[Chainmax]

Upgrading MVTools to v1.2.4 didn't help either :(.

[scharfis_brain]

disable all plugin autoloading!

[Chainmax]

I haven't used plugin autoloading for years, all my plugins are in a separate folder and are called on the script as needed.

[scharfis_brain]

hmm. then I dunno.

[theReal]

To get a real film look you'll also need to change the depth of field. It can be done with adapters like this one (http://www.letus35.com/letus35.html). I'm not sure if this adapter is any good, but it's relatively inexpensive. There are more expensive models for use with 35 mm film optics, I heard they can deliver pretty good results.

[Chainmax]

scharfis_brain: just to be sure I have some software incompatibility problem, would you be willing to try one of my scripts with a sample clip of mine?

theReal: thanks for the recommendation, I was recommended something similar at camcorderinfo.com (does Cokin or Tiffen ring a bell to you?). By the way, should the shutter speed be set to 1/60 or 1/120?

[scharfis_brain]

scharfis_brain: just to be sure I have some software incompatibility problem, would you be willing to try one of my scripts with a sample clip of mine?Sure.

By the way, should the shutter speed be set to 1/60 or 1/120?Depends on the method you favor for convreting you 60i video to 24p film look.

1/60, if you want to use simple blending:
eg. use anybob().blendfps(23.976,aperture=...) from mg262's motion.dll
use the aperture parameter to vary the amount of blending (two to three fields blended into one frame is a good value)

1/120 sec, if you use the motion compensated approach, which internally upsamples to 120fps, so the motionblurs will touch each other in the fps-upsampled clip.

The mocomped approach delivers better motion fluidity and enables better control over the motion blur.

While the simple blending approach is pretty fast and has no problems with false detected motion.

[Backwoods]

BlendFPS(23.976,aperture=1)

Trying this setting out on some 60i 1/60 footage looks pretty good.

[Chainmax]

...
The mocomped approach delivers better motion fluidity and enables better control over the motion blur.
...

But using such a high shutter speed might hurt the FILM look and could also cause strobing, right?

[scharfis_brain]

But using such a high shutter speed might hurt the FILM look and could also cause strobing, right?

aren't you reading my posts?
that's why the blending is done after converting to 120fps.
blending no frames : 1/120 sec shutter
blending two frames: 1/60 sec shutter
blending three frames: 1/40 sec shutter (near to FILM)
blending four frames: 1/30 sec shutter

Film typically as 1/48 sec shutter speed.

an easy solution with mocomp would be:

anybob()
motionprotectedfps(last.framerate*2,iterate=4)
blendfps(last.framerate/5.0, aperture=?)

aperture then regulates the amount of blending used.

[Chainmax]

aren't you reading my posts?
that's why the blending is done after converting to 120fps.
blending no frames : 1/120 sec shutter
blending two frames: 1/60 sec shutter
blending three frames: 1/40 sec shutter (near to FILM)
blending four frames: 1/30 sec shutter
...

I read your posts, but I didn't know that the blending was used to solve that. Remember I am a complete novice regarding framerate conversions and DV :o.

[levi]

I tried this:


MVFlowFPS(vb,vf,num=120000,den=1001)


And keep getting an "access violation" error.

I don't get access violation with
last.MVFlowFPS(vb,vf,num=120000,den=1001)


=)