How to Encode Compliant HD-DVD Files?

[Chauncey]

I would like encode some HD Mpeg and files I have to VC-1. I would like to use VC-1 to lower the bitrate so I can fit more on a single layer DVD. I would like for the files to by HD-DVD compliant so my Toshiba HD-A1 could play them. I have Ulead Movie Factory that will take Mpeg files and author an HD-DVD image, but you can only fit about 20 minutes on a single layer DVD.

Any thoughts? Any other HD-DVD authoring software out there? I've searched high and low and the information out there is pretty scarce at the moment.

Thanks for your help.

Chauncey

[siddharthagandhi]

the new Nero bundle can author HD DVDs

[Mutant_Fruit]

Why encode to VC1? H.264 is a mandantory format for all HD-DVD players (and Blu-Ray players afaik), so all your x264 encodes should play on your standalone too (depending on the profile supported by your player). If your player doesn't support H.264, it can't be called a HD-DVD player.

If you use x264 as your encoder, you should be able to get great quality at HD resolutions with bitrates comparable (or less than) your standard MPEG2 DVD stream.

[Golgot13]

All files encoded by x264 will be NOT compliant with HD DVD and BluRay.
It's not possible, yet, to change some option when we use x264 (macroblock, profile,...)

Golgot13
Membership of HD DVD

[Mutant_Fruit]

Well, the player claims to be compliant to the HD-DVD standard, which means (fortunately) that it MUST support H.264. If it doesn't support H.264, then it can't be marketed as a HD-DVD player. Tis plain and simple.

Without known exactly what levels are supported, i can nearly guarantee you that Main profile @ level 3 must be supported. Also, since the player must support 1080P, it probably supports up to level 4.1.

So, if you set x264 to generate a Main Profile Level 3 encode, you should be able to play it on your standalone. If you can't, then either x264 isn't creating standards compliant files (i doubt that, but if thats true, just report it as a bug and i'm sure it'll be fixed in no time) or your player isn't actually a HD-DVD compliant player.

[Sirber]

Does this have anything to do with MPEG-4 Encoder GUIs?

[Sharktooth]

All files encoded by x264 will be NOT compliant with HD DVD and BluRay.
It's not possible, yet, to change some option when we use x264 (macroblock, profile,...)

Golgot13
Membership of HD DVD
Uh??? what the heck are you saying?
you can change levels, macroblocks etc...
maybe you are talking about x264VFW? x264VFW is outdated. check the x264 CLI (maybe with a decent GUI).

[Chauncey]

Thanks for the replies. I appreciate the help.

Now how do I take 1440x816 wmv hd9 file and convert it to a H.264 file?

[siddharthagandhi]

Your best bet is to use VC-1, in Windows Media Encoder Studio Edition, when it comes out in ~1 week.

But if you really prefer H.264, and as Gologot said the current x264 is not HD DVD compliant, then that means you can not do it at this point in time (unless there is a paid software that is compatible, I'm 80 percent sure that Nero Digital isn't compatible btw)

[berrinam]

Can someone point me to some evidence that x264 can't producing HD-DVD-compliant files, because I am somewhat surprised by that.

[aguy]

I was under the impression that the spec for both HD-DVD and Bluray both stated that AVC Main Profile 3.0, 3.1, 3.2, 4.0, 4.1 and High Profile 4.0, 4.1 were supported. Does that not mean that if you limit x264 to these profiles then the file will be compliant?

[Mutant_Fruit]

But if you really prefer H.264, and as Gologot said the current x264 is not HD DVD compliant
Thats a load of crap. Sorry. Until you have *proof* to the contrary, i'm 99.9999% certain that if you use MeGUI (or any other x264 frontend) and you choose "Main Profile" and "Level 4" in the options, then you will end up with a 100% compatible file to play on your standalone.

And i'm sure most (if not all other) H.264 codecs also have similar options. There's no reason why it shouldn't work, unless your player is not HD-DVD compliant.

@ Chauncy: Download a few of the x264 frontends, and try em out. I'm sure they should all be able to open your wmv file, then its just a simple matter of setting the profile/level and then your bitrate and whatnot.

[Sharktooth]

But if you really prefer H.264, and as Gologot said the current x264 is not HD DVD compliant, then that means you can not do it at this point in time (unless there is a paid software that is compatible, I'm 80 percent sure that Nero Digital isn't compatible btw)
False statements. Stop spreading BS.

[siddharthagandhi]

False statements. Stop spreading BS.

OMFG. You people don't even read where I got that from...
I said that only because GOLGOT said that. OMFG...

Goglot said that so I took it as truth. So go attack him instead of me. god dammit people these days....

Thats for x264. And since x264 isn't compliable, I looked up Nero Digital and although I didn't find anything conclusive I assumed that Nero Digital isn't compatible either, considering that x264's builds are much newer than Nero Digital and thus they should have HD DVD compliance sooner.

[Mutant_Fruit]

We're not attacking you, we're attacking your statement (if attack is to be how you describe it).

You repeated something as fact even though we already had contradicted it saying it was wrong and untrue! Hell you even made up a nice statistic to back up your claim:
I'm 80 percent sure that Nero Digital isn't compatible btw)
Thats just not true at all. Thats what we were complaining about :p

Thats for x264. And since x264 isn't compliable, I looked up Nero Digital and although I didn't find anything conclusive I assumed that Nero Digital isn't compatible either
Once again, x264 is compatible...

[siddharthagandhi]

"Thats just not true at all. Thats what we were complaining about "

As I explained in my last post, the reason why i said that was because based on the fact x264 wasn't compatible (or so I believed based on Golgot) and what I found by searching for the answer.

[Sharktooth]

parrot talking is how lies are spread...
however can you post your "search results"?
I think theres no place in the doom9 forums where is specified that x264 is not compatible with hd-dvd...

[siddharthagandhi]

Not in the Doom9. Google search.

And this is getting off-topic. My original point is that the guy who wants to encode HD-DVD compliant files should wait until Windows Media Encoder Studio Edition so that he can try VC-1 and see how that compares to x264 and other AVC codecs in HD encoding.

[Sharktooth]

considering the specs, VC-1 is clearly inferior to h.264...

[siddharthagandhi]

Did you even try it yet? Unless you've actually tested it, you don't know for sure. And if you did use it and it was the 64 bit WM Encoder version, that one is much older than the current one, and thus the quality/compression is inferior to that of the current codec.

And by specs, what are you referring to?

[Sharktooth]

the SPECS. VC-1 has less features than h.264.
saying it will be better is like saying divx is better than h.264...

[siddharthagandhi]

Can you give me a link to these "specs"?

[CruNcher]

eh the problem with x264 @ the moment would be the non existant peak bitrate controll and vbr compliancy but anyways a X264 stream should be playbacked inside a HD-DVD player but only if you get it embedded into the programm stream .EVO file and use the HD-DVD file structure.

@Sharktooth
im not sure that it is inferior, maybe for low bitrate but it was heavily tweaked for HD (HD-DVD) and Microsoft Researchers were especialy tweaking the balance of it so everything is more balanced then H.264 in terms off complexity vs quality. You can compare that with what Picard did for CoreAVC vs other H.264 Decoders (Picard optimized it better, Microsoft balanced it better for the purpose).

[Sharktooth]

Can you give me a link to these "specs"?
http://www.google.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VC-1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X264

eh the problem with x264 @ the moment would be the non existant peak bitrate controll and vbr compliancy but anyways a X264 stream should be playbacked inside a HD-DVD player but only if you get it embedded into the programm stream .EVO file and use the HD-DVD file structure.
then what's -vbv-maxbitrate for? :P
and yes, you can even control the initial buffer, the bitrate variability, the buffer size...

@Sharktooth
im not sure that it is inferior, maybe for low bitrate but it was heavily tweaked for HD (HD-DVD) and Microsoft Researchers were especialy tweaking the balance of it so everything is more balanced then H.264 in terms off complexity vs quality. You can compare that with what Picard did for CoreAVC vs other H.264 Decoders (Picard optimized it better, Microsoft balanced it better for the purpose).
tweaking is something that can be done in every codec and even x264 can be "tweaked" for HD but still i dont and cant believe a codec based on older tech can give better results than a technologically more advanced codec.
Also remember that VC-1 best profile (WVC1 or WMV9 AP) is almost WMV9 MP + interlacing support (plus a couple of useless additions) and we all know how poorly WMV9 performs... (http://www.compression.ru/video/codec_comparison/subjective_codecs_comparison_en.html)

[siddharthagandhi]

So what about the specs indicates inferiority?

[Sharktooth]

VC-1 is MPEG4 ASP - some stuff + some advanced features like loop deblocking and adaptive macroblock quantization... nothing more.
AVC (h.264) is far more advanced, it has everything VC-1 has plus CABAC, multiple reference frames, weighted prediction, and many more things that grant a superior efficiency (compression and quality).
VC-1 simply CANT be even on par with h.264 at the same bitrates...

[Audionut]

VC-1 is from MS. WTF do you expect. I would rather use Mpeg2.

[siddharthagandhi]

"VC-1 is MPEG4 ASP"

Wow I nv knew that i thought WMV 9 was its own kind of codec

But MPEG-4 ASP arent that bad, Xvid is pretty good

[Sharktooth]

it's not MPEG-4 ASP... it's LIKE it but not compatible (probably derived from it).

[siddharthagandhi]

Nonetheless, Xvid isn't that bad. I'm working on a codec comparison, and so far Xvid is destined to be third behind Nero Digital HP/MP and x264. And its not far off either. If VC-1 does as good it would be a pretty good alternative.

[Golgot13]

Hi,

I try to know if I can import a H264 generate by x264 in HD DVD authoring software.
I have to test a HD DVD player (software a beta version of Neroshowtime,
hardware HD XA1 from USA). The player support HD DVD project on DVD disc :D :D

I came from NAB, two years ago all manufactures talk about VC1 and VC1 in hardware.
But now with H264 available (chipset on Set Top Box, Hardware encoder,...),
no things about VC1 and the first card, Inlet Fathom, which encode on VC1 support
H264 now.

But all HD DVD from big studios will use this codec (in USA and in Europe).

I see a test of Dolby Digital Plus, surround up to 13.1 with a low bitrate (between 96kbps to 6Mbps).
It support by HD DVD and BluRay and all new hardware (Set Top Box, DVB and ATSC
receiver,...)
But I know only one software which encode in Dolby Plus :( ( 9500$ only audio encoder...).

For x264, I need a Gui with all option (vbv, macroblock, profile, level,...).
There is lot of restriction for video to HD DVD (VC1, H264 or MPEG2):
- Size of gop (more 2 and less than 25) (not sure sure for 25)
- Bitrate (more 2.5Mbps less 26.5Mbps for video)
- Resolution (up 1920x1080 at 24fps progressive, 25 and 30 interlaced)
- Some option not support for H264 (I listen that some chipset don't support MBAFF or PAFF...)

And do you know some Gui for encavc from Ateme?

Some people had tested the encoder from Envivio, NTT, Fraunofer or KDDI?

I search some people can help me to make good video quality in H264 and VC1.


Golgot13
Membership of HD DVD

[siddharthagandhi]

There is a GUI for Ateme High Profile, i don't know if its legal or not but the guy who gave it to me said he found it on Doom9. Encavc is a command line so if you know the commands then you should be fine and not need the GUI.

for x264, you can use MeGUI

[laserfan]

Thanks for the replies. I appreciate the help.

Now how do I take 1440x816 wmv hd9 file and convert it to a H.264 file?This might be an interesting thread if it stayed on topic.

Who will be the first to burn an HD-DVD settop player compatible DVD?

Unfortunately however even my edited 44minute HDTV shows are typically bigger than a DVD-5. Not sure they're worth spending $2 bucks apiece on for a DVD+R DL! :eek:

[lazyn00b]

There is lot of restriction for video to HD DVD (VC1, H264 or MPEG2):
- Size of gop (more 2 and less than 25) (not sure sure for 25)
- Bitrate (more 2.5Mbps less 26.5Mbps for video)
- Resolution (up 1920x1080 at 24fps progressive, 25 and 30 interlaced)
- Some option not support for H264 (I listen that some chipset don't support MBAFF or PAFF...)

Hi, Golgot13, and thanks for the info! Are these the only restrictions, or are there others? Do you happen to know of any links to the full specifications of HD DVD compliant video streams? I want to be able to encode H.264 video that can later be muxed into HD DVD format when compliant muxing tools become available.

[Guest]

OMFG
...
god dammit people Please read and follow forum rules, specifically, rule 4: no profanity. Thank you.

http://forum.doom9.org/forum-rules.htm

[bond]

i have yet to see the exact coding format specs used in blury and hddvd. till now i only see things like "high profile" or "advanced profile" aso which are definitely not specific enough at all

once someone can show those specs (for vc-1 and avc) we can check whether x264 (or any other avc codec) or m$' wmv9 can produce streams that are 100% following the hddvd/bluray specs

till we dont know those specs we cant be sure that our wmv9 or x264 streams are compliant to hddvd or bluray

period

[Sagittaire]

Well x264 produce compliant H264 profil but HD-DVD and BR will choose certainely level with special limitation:

1) Level fixe some max properties for stream like
- max bitrate
- max buffer size
- max vertical MV range
....

2) HD-DVD and BR can add some limitation
- more restrictive vbv for example
...

At this time with x264 I can't choose max MV Range. I don't know if vbv profil are always correctly respected. Wait and see.

[Golgot13]

i have yet to see the exact coding format specs used in blury and hddvd. till now i only see things like "high profile" or "advanced profile" aso which are definitely not specific enough at all


Yes, I know because it is not free, I have a friend who work in electronic company
which pay the white book to be compliant with one of this 2 format.


once someone can show those specs (for vc-1 and avc) we can check whether x264 (or any other avc codec) or m$' wmv9 can produce streams that are 100% following the hddvd/bluray specs

till we dont know those specs we cant be sure that our wmv9 or x264 streams are compliant to hddvd or bluray

period


The real restriction will appear with hardware compatibility:
- Some hardware chipset don't support MBAFF or PAFF (x264 don't support it too)
- Some option will be not recommended (I remember that some DVD player don't support
352x480 or 352x576, 2 formats compliants DVD)
- ...

And x264 support only progressif encoding but HD DVD/BluRay like interlaced format:
in HD resolution there is only 1920x1080 24p and 1280x720 59.97p, 50p which support by x264.
VC1 is WM9 with interlaced support...

Last, I do HD DVD with H264 video encoded by x264, it work (but some option do bad quality video:
artefact, slow picture, bloc,...)



Golgot13

[imcold]

...and many more things that grant a superior efficiency (compression and quality).
My favourite: intra/spatial prediction ;)

[Clown shoes]

I do HD DVD with H264 video encoded by x264, it work (but some option do bad quality video:
artefact, slow picture, bloc,...)


Could you tell us which settings caused a problem??


i have yet to see the exact coding format specs used in blury and hddvd. till now i only see things like "high profile" or "advanced profile" aso which are definitely not specific enough at all


I will be attending the Media-Tech expo in Frankfurt on wednesday. I will see if I can get some more detailed specs while I am there and then post them here.

http://www.mediatech-expo.net/

ClownShoes

[bond]

that would be great!

[vsv]

I will be attending the Media-Tech expo in Frankfurt on wednesday. I will see if I can get some more detailed specs while I am there and then post them here.

http://www.mediatech-expo.net/

ClownShoes

Any news, Clown shoes?

[Slitheen]

Any news on this? I'd be keen to author what would amount to a good few hours of SD material onto a DVD that could be playable on an HD-DVD player.

[xxxomxxx]

check out the Microsoft HD Jumpstart Package...

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/forpros/hddvd/default.aspx

and the official docs...

http://www.dvdforum.org/mi-HD_DVD.htm

[Golgot13]

All file compliant with DVD standard can use in HD DVD project.

I went at MediaTeck but no news about with compliant specifications
(must to pay to have the white book... :( ).
But I see the copy protection process of AACS:
- Very hard (it is like PGP, there is keys on disk from authoring studio
and replicator, the master key on player can change,...)
- Very expensive ( 2800 Euros by title...)


Golgot13

[Clown shoes]

Sorry Guys, much like Golgot13, I got no real info out of them at Media Tech. Too many salesmen and not enough tech heads there. I did have a good long chat with the guys from Sonic, but they are busily trying to push thier own software encoder right now that comes with the ridiculously expensive Scenarist 4. If I remember rightly, the entire Scenarist packages comes in at about $140,000.00 (I'll have two please :p ) I will be attending IBC in Amsterdam and will make another effort to get info. but that is not until September.

[lexor]

Well since you've asked for HD-DVD compliant and not x264, you might want to keep your eye on Windows Media Encoder Studio (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/forpros/encoderse/default.aspx) (currently in Beta). If that thing doesn't output HD-DVD compliant video, I don't know what will.

[Sharktooth]

HD-DVD in MPEG-4 AVC forum implies h.264 encoding... :p

[bond]

Well since you've asked for HD-DVD compliant and not x264, you might want to keep your eye on Windows Media Encoder Studio (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/forpros/encoderse/default.aspx) (currently in Beta). If that thing doesn't output HD-DVD compliant video, I don't know what will.this also doesnt necessarily output hddvd compliant streams

[lexor]

this also doesnt necessarily output hddvd compliant streams
streams, maybe not, since it's likely to use wma and such, but video output should at least have a profile that would make it compliant, otherwise there isn't an update over current version, and MS rarely puts effort into free software that it doesn't see performing a good service to MS. So for future (when authoring software come) we should be able to remux the video. As I expect this to be the first consumer friendly HD-DVD encoder for consumer market (minus nero, dunno what's going on with those guys lately), since I just don't see x264 being mass adopted by authoring software developer, and nothing else really stands out in h264 arena right now (again we don't know what nero will bring, since ateme encoder is so expensive, with people quoting thousands per licence, it's unlikely that whatever nero ships is going to be the full blown thing).

[bond]

just because you are compliant to a profile of your standard of choice (vc-1 or avc) doesnt mean that you are hddvd compliant

benwaggoner himself said that its not yet hddvd complaint:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=113306

that much about this...

[Chainmax]

I don't understand why haven't the specs been released yet, they surely must have been final for a long time now, right?

[bond]

I don't understand why haven't the specs been released yet, they surely must have been final for a long time now, right?well they have been released but are not available for free

so we need to wait till someone having access to the specs leaks the video-coding related details

[Sharktooth]

all i know about the specs (apart resolutions and framerates) is included in the MeGUI HD-DVD profile. I dont know if it is 100% compliant though (that's why i asked for tests).

[xxxomxxx]

not free....great start:devil:

[Golgot13]

all i know about the specs (apart resolutions and framerates) is included in the MeGUI HD-DVD profile. I dont know if it is 100% compliant though (that's why i asked for tests).

I gave you some informations about the compliant H264 video files.

There is some problems with some authoring softwares (not all :) )
to accept H264 video from x264 because some NAL headers
are wrong.

In 1920x1080 and 1440x1080, we must have interlaced video
at 25 and 29.97 and progressif video at 24.
It is 1080, not 1088 (like some broadcast Tv).
There are too 1280x1080, 960x1080 (resolutions supported
but never see in demo) and 1280x720 (but only in 59.94 or 50).

When some people read High Profile Level 4.1 (HP@L4.1),
we must read UP to HP@L4.1 (DVDSP4 use H264 only
MP@L4.1 at 1280x720). And it's same for VC1 UP to AP@L3
(but maybe AP@L4 if it will have 1920x1080 29.97p not sure
because hardware chipset not yet available to mass production)


Golgot13