Ntsc -> Pal

[Stingrey]

Hi,
I have a movie which is
Ascpect Ratio 4:3
Frame Size 720x480
Frame Rate 29.970030
Frame Type Interlaced

I would like it to encode with x264 as a 25fps progressive.
Normally the croping, resize, deinterlacing is no problem for me,
but what is the best way to come from 29.97003 fps interlaced to 25fps progressive?

And another little problem, how to keep the audio sync?

[dukey]

why
.

[adrianmak]

why not use 29.97 progressive ?????

[foxyshadis]

Two of the most useless replies I've ever seen.

Stingrey, if you have natural video try something like mvbob, then follow it by mvflowfps or motionprotectedfps. If it's pure interlaced already (not telecined or hybrid) that's definitely the best way.

If it's animation of some sort, try to ivtc it if at all possible, then changefps it. Or bob it with eedi2 & tdeint, and smartdecimate that.

[Guest]

Two of the most useless replies I've ever seen. Please remember forum rule 4. Thank you.

[GodofaGap]

Perhaps something like:

SomeSource()
LeakkernelBob()
Convertfps(50).Selecteven()

Probably a bit crude way of doing it, but should be reasonably fast at least. :)

[MrTroy]

but what is the best way to come from 29.97003 fps interlaced to 25fps progressive?

And another little problem, how to keep the audio sync?If it's film-sourced (i.e. telecined), use:
DoubleWeave()
PullDown(0,3)
AssumeFPS(25,sync_audio=true)
SSRC(48000)

[TlatoSMD]

I'm desperately looking for a proper NTSC to PAL conversion method. What I have are telecined MPEG and VOB 29.97i sources (interlaced fields only, not a single progressive frame), and what I'd like to have are 25p files with smooth, continous motions but without each 3rd or 4th frame being blurred (as the latter somehow looks like a heavily reduced framerate during playback as well). I have no problem with converting my files to AVI as that's what I intend to do anyway to further clean them using VDub, then editing them in Adobe Premiere Pro.

Since neither Premiere Pro nor VDub provide any remotely decent solution for telecined NTSC to PAL conversion (only outputting results looking like 5fps or so, while native video 25i --> 29.97i from the same DVDs --> 25p seems to work just fine in VDub), I've been looking around. Before hearing about doing it in AVIsynth, I've found DV Pal NTSC Converter to give acceptable results, however the only available version is a demo imprinting a watermark, and it looks like there's no site on it left anymore and its author stopped caring about it years ago, leaving no way to reach him.

So after googling some more, it seems like AVIsynth is my only other option if I don't wanna spend any cash on this.

I've tried using the method explained at the bottom here: http://www.geocities.com/xesdeeni2001/StandardsConversion/index.html, but Mpeg2Dec doesn't work with AVIsynth 2.5, using other MPEG decoders from avisynth.org and after accordingly converting colorspaces, SmoothDeinterlacer bitches about needing fields (even though my videos are interlaced and saying so in FlaskMPEG displaying file informations) and needing AssumeFieldBased() or otherwise it can't weave, and after adding AssumeFieldBased(), it bitches about needing frames by AssumeFrameBased instead or otherwise it can't seperate fields. Adding each line before each command makes it going on bitching about needing fields. Trying to use my files converted to AVI sources for a change, it starts bitching about 'invalid arguments'.

In the end, I've tried using Bach's UnBlend as on avisynth.org, it's recommended for NTSC-PAL conversion, however AVIsynth claims it knows neither Bob nor SmartBob even though its documentation claims the first to be an internal AVIsynth filter and I couldn't find any SmartBob plugin anywhere.

After finding this forum and this thread, I've first tried using GodofaGap's script but that makes my AVIsynth bitch again about that no such thing as a Bob filter would exist. Using Mr. Troy's script, the result is not only still interlaced (which I could fix in VDub) but also full of dynamic, colored confetti blocks.

All I need is a script where I could insert my file names. I have no idea about stuff like IVTC, leaking kernels, and AVIsynth in general (though I've been trying to make any sense of the latter since 2004, and still failing to write any simple scripts beyond opening sources), all I need is a proper telecined NTSC to PAL conversion (see first paragraph).

And just why do I have to be registered for at least 5 days before I can just even post?

[Guest]

All I need is a script where I could insert my file names. I have no idea about stuff like IVTC, leaking kernels, and AVIsynth in general (though I've been trying to make any sense of the latter since 2004, and still failing to write any simple scripts beyond opening sources), all I need is a proper telecined NTSC to PAL conversion (see first paragraph). Most people will not try to help you when you make statements like this. It shows you are not willing to invest the required effort. What makes you think the "proper" methods involve only scripting? They may involve extra tools, like DGPulldown, MPEG decoders/encoders, audio editors, motion-compensated picture interpolators, etc. And supplying you with a script may still require you to obtain plugins and functions that are not built-in to Avisynth. Finally, the "proper" method to use depends critically on the specific nature of your source material. Is it, e.g., pure 3:2 telecined, is it hybrid, is it field-blended, etc.?

It's like saying, "I just want to know how to pilot a 747, don't bother me with all that stuff about aerodynamics and navigation."

What I have are telecined MPEG and VOB 29.97i sources (interlaced fields only, not a single progressive frame) Saying it's all interlaced contradicts saying that it is telecined. There is a difference between saying the MPEG encoder is encoding using interlaced mode and saying that the content itself is interlaced. You can encode progressive content in interlaced mode, and it happens very often.

I suggest that instead of making half-hearted attempts at things and then abandoning them and moving on to something else, you should pick one method and persevere with it until you get results. You'll learn a lot that way.

You could start by posting a link to a sample of the unprocessed VOB for us to inspect. Then we can suggest a suitable process and help you to get it working. Also tell us what your destination format is, e.g., are you trying to make a PAL DVD?

[Guest]

And just why do I have to be registered for at least 5 days before I can just even post? That's to encourage you to read existing threads, learn the forum rules, and lurk a while to understand the "culture" of the forum.

[TlatoSMD]

Well, thank you for replying to my rude post Neuron2. I didn't intend it to be like that. I suppose it's mainly my frustration speaking.

They may involve extra tools, like DGPulldown, MPEG decoders/encoders, audio editors, motion-compensated picture interpolators, etc. And supplying you with a script may still require you to obtain plugins and functions that are not built-in to Avisynth.

Don't worry, I have no problems with downloading more tools or plugins. I suppose my main problem is the degree of abstraction a script-based aka text-based tool like AVIsynth provides.

Saying it's all interlaced contradicts saying that it is telecined. There is a difference between saying the MPEG encoder is encoding using interlaced mode and saying that the content itself is interlaced. You can encode progressive content in interlaced mode, and it happens very often.

I am aware that footage (be it interlaced or progressive) can be stored as interlaced or progressive either way. In the case of progressive material, progressive storing as 25p or 29.97p probably is self-evident in how it works or looks like, while interlaced storing of the same material can be either by faking 25p or 29.97p, i. e. by both fields being identical (so the difference to progressive storing is in fact invisible to the naked eye), or by actually breaking up the originally progressive frames into 50i or about 60i fields (so that scanning lines are visible, at least on computer screens).

So you're telling me there's a third way for storing progressive MPEG material that decodes as interlaced, even after converting from VOB/MPEG to AVI with another codec? I'm not asking because I don't believe you but because I really wanna know.

Also tell us what your destination format is, e.g., are you trying to make a PAL DVD?

Yes, that's right. I'm coming from an NTSC DVD, intend to restore and re-master audio and (PAL) video, then burn to a PAL DVD.

You could start by posting a link to a sample of the unprocessed VOB for us to inspect. Then we can suggest a suitable process and help you to get it working.

Okay, here's a decryption to MPEG: http://media.putfile.com/test-80-69. It's an MPEG, not the original VOB because putfile.com doesn't allow uploading the latter format. I could post it as the original split VOB if you'd need it and tell me where I could put it.

Before you'll ask me, yes, I did buy (https://payments.amazon.co.uk/exec/transaction_details?session_key=39209dc9d21b20889577a202f1da08de&o=6&xa=736-9949378-5969163) this DVD (Amazon(?) order code 736-9949378-5969163), but I intend to restore this material such as by re-synching in stereo, and the ad said this DVD would be PAL but it turned out to be NTSC.

[Guest]

I want the original VOB fragment. You can lie by changing the extension to MPG and I'll know to change it back (the extension is irrelevant anyway). Thank you.

Also, how do I download from that link? The help file for the site says that videos cannot be downloaded. That makes the whole exercise rather pointless.

You can use my FTP if you like. I will PM you the password. See access details in my sig below.

[Guest]

So you're telling me there's a third way for storing progressive MPEG material that decodes as interlaced, even after converting from VOB/MPEG to AVI with another codec? No. I'm telling you what I told you. :)

You can encode progressive as interlaced and it is still progressive on display. You have to know about the MPEG spec to fully understand that.

[TlatoSMD]

You can use my FTP if you like.

Thanks a lot for letting me use your server, it's uploading by now. :)

You can encode progressive as interlaced and it is still progressive on display. You have to know about the MPEG spec to fully understand that.

Since in this case interlacing scanlines remain visible even after going from VOB/MPEG to different container and different codec, I suppose it's not due to deceptive MPEG specs?

Anyway, I'll be so glad when/if they'll by HDTV leave behind those cumbersome interlacing (with its chunky-looking faster shutter-speed) and non-square issues that derived from primitive 1920s and 1930s TV technology!

[Guest]

I suppose it's not due to deceptive MPEG specs? The MPEG spec is not deceptive. I am making no claims about your source material, which I haven't yet downloaded. You claimed it was telecined and interlaced, which is contradictory. So I told you about a case where you might *think* it is interlaced because, for example, DGIndex said interlaced, but really the content is progressive.

Anyway, I will look at the file and see what really is the case.

EDIT: It's field-blended garbage, which explains why you get the blended frames. So it's already most likely been converted from PAL to NTSC. It is not telecined (music videos are almost always pure video). Since it is not telecined (as you originally claimed!), the method I was going to suggest is not applicable. You'll need to get help from people like Mug Funky and scharfis_brain that regularly deal with this kind of material. If I were you, I would just watch it on a player that can play both NTSC and PAL.

[TlatoSMD]

Even if it's been converted from PAL to NTSC, it should be pretty obvious this stuff originated on film due to grain, dirt, slow shutter speed, colors. Video didn't look like that in 1973 or earlier, and even today, it would take a professional posthouse to make video look somewhat like the way that excerpt does.

Anyway, if the original film footage had been originally telecined to PAL then converted to NTSC, wouldn't it have been telecined at 25fps? If so, why can't I deal with it in the same way as I do with the other material that is obviously PAL video originated, then converted to NTSC? The latter works smoothly and fine when deinterlacing it and converting it back to PAL in VDub, but the film-originated telecined footage like that excerpt looks like about 5fps after the same process.

[Guest]

why can't I deal with it in the same way as I do with the other material that is obviously PAL video originated, then converted to NTSC? The latter works smoothly and fine when deinterlacing it and converting it back to PAL in VDub, but the film-originated telecined footage like that excerpt looks like about 5fps after the same process. You asked me why the frame blends are there:

I'd like to have are 25p files with smooth, continous motions but without each 3rd or 4th frame being blurred I told you -- it's because it's field blended. I can't help you any more with this because I purposely stay away from such material (it's too frustrating). Please try PM'ing Mug Funky or scharfis_brain and point them to this thread.

[Mug Funky]

restore24 might be able to handle it. i can't give you help on using it because i forget how myself every time i suggest it. the docs are helpful though.

it'll be pretty slow however... but it's probably the best way of going PAL to NTSC and back again, because the only other option is running it through the same process that blended all those fields to begin with.

there may be another source though - it's often worth hunting one down if the current one is too problematic. of course sometimes we don't have a choice, especially with older stuff (though sometimes there's both a restored version and a crap old version in circulation, both on DVD and pro formats. it can be a bit of a lottery).

[TlatoSMD]

Thank you for those tips Mug Funky. :)

Using RePAL, motions mostly look fine, only between each 6th and each 7th frame, at least one frame or more seem to be missing so it gets chunky just as well.

Using Restore24, no matter whether I output 25fps, 24fps, or 23.976fps, every 4th frame is a mere copy of the one before, just the same result that I get using VDub. I suppose it has to do with the values used for TDeint in Restore24 but its readme file is way beyond me. What TDeint settings would you suggest for material that went from 24fps film --> 25fps PAL --> 29.97i NTSC so that every single frame shows combing lines?

[scharfis_brain]

put a proper VOB fragment to eg. www.rapidshare.de if you want some specific help
the mpg you loaded to putfile isn't valid (720x480 at 25 fps ?!?)

[TlatoSMD]

Hi Scharfis. Here's the VOB segment I'd uploaded to Donald's server: http://rapidshare.de/files/21592279/test.vob.html

[TlatoSMD]

Okay, I've realized that when playing my converted 29.97i VOB-->29.97i DV-NTSC file in Media Player Classic, it flickers a lot (while the original VOB doesn't), the way it does when field order has gone wrong, so I've introduced reversing field order to my script.

After fiddling around with TDeint's values and settings for the last 8 and a half hours in combination to said change of field order, I've managed to make Restore24 output the same as RePAL, that is almost fluid motion in comparison, only that between each 6th and each 7th frame, at least one or two frames or more seem to be completely missing (even though they are there in the original 29.97i NTSC file) so it gets chunky just as well. The values I use to achieve that are the following: b2=TDeint(mode=1,type=2,sharp=false,tryweave=false).

Other results when messing with TDeint's values are that every 4th frame is a copy of the 3rd, or that every 6th or 7th is a copy of the one before. Both results look even worse than the one above that is like RePAL.

[TlatoSMD]

I've finally found a solution to this problem, and all it involves are VDub and a wave editor.

First, a VDub version able to handle MPEG-2 and VOBs from http://www.videohelp.com/ was simplifying matters quite a lot. Then I followed a PAL-->NTSC conversion guide from the same place and somewhat adapted it. It has three runs of each file through VDub in its final version that can't be run in one or two goes.

a.) First is using the inverse telecining method from VDub's Frame rate settings, Reconstruct from fields - manual to be precise. Save to disk.

b.) Open resulting 23.97i file, speed up to 25i, save audio to WAV, and speed it up to 104.39% of its original speed using a wave editor. Put sped up audio to video in VDub. Save to disk.

c.) Open resulting 25i file. Deinterlace using blend fields (using 'cleaner' methods of deinterlacing with less motion blur won't work as several frames at a time will get lost that way, several times a second). Resize to 720*576 (AFTER deinterlacing) and use any other filters you want to (I specifically used dotcrawl removal which works as an excellent denoiser/degrainer, sharpening borders, additional traditional denoise/degrain). Save to disk. Done.

This seems to indicate my cine footage was in fact not converted from PAL to NTSC, but actually has been telecined directly to NTSC since it could smoothly be inversely telecined to 23.97i instead of converted directly from 29.97i to 25p or 25i.

Actually in retrospect, it had indicated so since I'd found out the original PAL video-originated footage from the same NTSC DVD could easily be converted from 29.97i directly to 25p in one go.