Question on resume to title menu - DVD Remake Pro Merge

[blutach]

This mainly for mpucoder, but also please opinions sought from others, esp. dimad and Fallen.

DVD Remake Pro (http://www.dimadsoft.com/dvdremakepro/index.php) has a very nice feature to merge 2 or more DVDs in 1 click. It essentially puts each DVD (and its menus) in their own VTS and inserts a little title menu in VTS 3, allowing the user to select Disk 1 or Disk 2. This menu is played first via a jump from the defined (dummy) Title Menu in VMGM. A disk is selected and its menu appears (the flow is from VTSM 3 (the "title menu") to VMGM to VTSM 1 or 2).

The user selects something from the menu and, after playback, returns to the menu of that VTS.

Now, here's the rub. As I interpret it, according to dimad, pressing "Title menu" on the remote at any time will return to the title menu in VTSM 3 - in fact, it is the only way to do so, since each DVD is preserved in its own VTS with no button added to the menu to return to the Title Menu.

This works for me in PowerDVD, Showtime and my standalones, irrespective of whether I am playing a title or a menu.

However, pressing "title" during a PgcEdit (http://www.videohelp.com/~r0lZ/pgcedit/index.html) trace resumes to the most recently played title. r0lZ and I have been having some email correspondence about this and he suggested posting it here. His view is that pressing "title" on the remote while in a menu (eg VTSM 1) should resume to the last visited title and he confirms his players do this. He says pressing "title" on the remote during playback of a title should take you to the title menu.

(BTW: There is no argument that pressing the "menu" button on the remote while in a menu should issue a RSM).

So, what is the spec? Pressing title takes you to the Title menu or does it resume to the last title?

Sorry for the long post.

Regards

[Mug Funky]

there's nothing officially in the spec that i know of (haven't read it... can't afford it), but the behaviour you mention is the way we author here.

you can also do some fancy authoring to ensure it'll behave that way regardless of the behaviour of the player (though by now they all behave the same way. IIRC it's just a couple of old Toshibas that work differently. i gather the specs are unclear on resume play with VTS_X_0 content).

[goonix]

Pressing the Root menu button (or the Title menu button) when you are in a menu domain should resume to the title.
This does not work on my standalone DVD players (3 completely different brands).

pressing "Title menu" on the remote at any time will return to the title menu... This works for me in PowerDVD, Showtime and my standalones, irrespective of whether I am playing a title or a menu.
This is my experience too.

goonix

[bigotti5]

6Unfortunately, in typical style of the DVD specification, the “clarification” is almost impenetrable.
Here is an example, complete with typos, of a definition of button behavior; one of 18 paragraphs
defining four rules for the “Top Menu” and “Menu” buttons: “When [MEMU] is pressed,
Menu_Call() (the transition to Root menu) is executed and then the function of [TOP MENU] is
changed to Menu_Call() and the function of [MENU] is changed to RSM. In case that no entry
of Root menu exists, the transition to Root menu is not actually executed although Menu_Call()
is executed.”


5Some Pioneer remote controls require two keypresses to get to the title menu—the “Title” key
and then the “Menu” key—unless the disc is stopped, in which case only the “Title” key is needed.
The “Menu” key works with a single press, except that when the disc is stopped it goes to a
player-generated menu that is neither the title menu nor the root menu.

source: DVDDemystified -Jim Taylor

[r0lZ]

Yes, the specs are just crap!

But I see this: "... and the function of [MENU] is changed to RSM." If it's the same thing with the Title menu, then the PgcEdit behaviour is the right one.

But I see also "... and then the function of [TOP MENU] is changed to Menu_Call()" which is completely incomprehensible for me, mut might signify that the Title Menu button should call the menu.

Anyway, you cannot trust any player. My Sony do a RSM with both the Root and Title menu buttons when the navigation is in a menu domain. And Sony is one of the most standard compliant brand. But my player has some important bugs, too!
IfoEdit simply do nothing in the same case!

Personally, I must admit that calling the Title Menu when the Title Menu button is pressed seems logical. Maybe I'll change that in PgcEdit. But doing an authoring with this behaviour in mind is very dangerous. It will not work on all players!

Thanks guys for your help!

[blutach]

And my SONY does a RSM with "Menu" and call to Title Menu with "Title". Crazy, huh?

I would very much like to see what others have to say before you change the behaviour of PgcEdit (http://www.videohelp.com/~r0lZ/pgcedit/index.html). Particularly dimad and Fallen who have designed these "menu add on systems" and of course, mpucoder, whose word is gospel :)

Regards

[frank]

Hmm...
TITLE should jump to the Title Menu in VMG.
MENU or RETURN should jump to the Root Menu of the curent VTS.

So 99% of my DVDs working.

[blutach]

@frank - I believe r0lZ is recoding PgcEdit (http://www.videohelp.com/~r0lZ/pgcedit/index.html) to behave this way :)

Regards

[r0lZ]

Yes. But I'm still not sure what I've made is sufficient.

Currently, PgcEdit's trace behaves like this:

When [TITLE] or [ROOT] is pressed during playback of a title, the corresponding menu is called. (No change.)
When [TITLE] is pressed during playback of a VTSM menu, the title menu is called. (Previously, a RSM was issued.)
When [TITLE] is pressed during playback of a VMGM menu, a RSM is issued. (No change.)
When [ROOT] is pressed during playback of a VTSM menu, a RSM is issued. (No change.)
When [ROOT] is pressed during playback of a VMGM menu, a RSM is issued. (No change.)
When [RETURN] is pressed during playback of a non-sequential title and the GoUpPGCN link is non zero, the PGC pointed to by the GoUpPGCN link is called. (No change.)
When [RETURN] is pressed during playback of a menu PGC and the GoUpPGCN link is not zero and not 0xFFFF, the PGC pointed to by the GoUpPGCN link is called. (No change.)
When [RETURN] is pressed during playback of a menu PGC and the GoUpPGCN link is 0xFFFF, a RSM is issued. (No change.)
The [RETURN] button is inactive if the GoUpPGCN link is 0. (No Change.)

Of course, nothing happens if a PUO or restricted flag prevents using the menu button.

I have still some doubts on points 3 and 4. What do you think?

[bigotti5]

more from Jim Taylor

Pressing the “Top” (“Title”) key on a remote control accesses the main menu, and pressing the “Menu” key accesses the root menu of the current title. When the “Top” (“Title”) or “Menu” key is pressed a second time (after going to the menu), playback resumes at the point where it was interrupted. There is also a “Return” or “Go Up” button -sometimes- returns from a submenu to its parent menu or to the current title if the menu is a top-level menu.
.....
The “Return” key should perform the valuable function of taking you up a level, somewhat like the “Back” button on a Web browser, but unfortunately, it is not understood by most disc authors and is not well supported.

[r0lZ]

The Return (or GoUp) key must be programmed to work. This is why there is a GoUpPGCN link in the PGCs. I don't think it should return back automatically. Unfortunately, it is very rare to find a non-zero value in the GoUpPGCN link. In the menu domains, it can also be programmed to resume to the title domain (value of NextPGCN link is 0xFFFF.)

Pressing the menu button twice to resume to the title domain is what was programmed in PgcEdit, and is the behaviour of my Sony. However, when the Title menu button was pressed during playback of a root menu, a resume was made, too, but although it's the way my Sony works, that seems not logical. Therefore, I have changed that.

But there is still something not very clear.
I understand that when the Root menu PGC (the one "labelled" as Root menu) is playing and the Root Menu button is pressed, the navigation should resume to the title domain. But is it true also when another PGC of the VTSM domain is playing? In this case, it is possible to return to the Root menu PGC, or to resume to the title domain.

IMO, it is better to resume. For example, it is easy to go to the root menu when a title is playing, then navigate to the audio or subpic menu to change the streams, and resume directly from that menu to the title simply by pressing the Root menu button. Works well with my Sony, and I finds it invaluable. But that doesn't mean that it's the standard behaviour.

For the Title domain, there is an important difference. Since there is no "current" titleset, it is not possible to return to the Root menu. Therefore, I assume that pressing the Root menu button when playing a VMGM PGC always resumes to the title domain. But, again, I'm not sure what to do with the Title menu button. When the Title menu PGC is playing, the only thing to do is to resume. But when another VMGM PGC is playing, it is also possible to return to the Title menu PGC.

[Fallen]

And to further muddy the waters

IMO, it is better to resume. For example, it is easy to go to the root menu when a title is playing, then navigate to the audio or subpic menu to change the streams, and resume directly from that menu to the title simply by pressing the Root menu button. Works well with my Sony, and I finds it invaluable. But that doesn't mean that it's the standard behaviour.

I agree its the sensible way -- Unfortunately testing on 2 different pioneers and a denon the behavior is different on each.

Same DVD

Pioneer jukebox resumes to Last pgc (?huh**2)
Pioneer single play resumes to Root (expected and sensible)
and the crappy denon goes to VMGM_FP in all cases(This one drove me nuts)

Since nobody is following any rules -- I suggest tea leaves in selecting resume behavior

Yes, the specs are just crap!**N

with one small change
There are no DVD Specs -- its just a dream

[r0lZ]

Thanks!

Anyway, I have already changed the behaviour of the root menu button. It should be compatible with TitleWriter and DRM Pro now.
Not sure I'll add a configuration option for this stuff, since you cannot know in advance what will be the behaviour of your next player!
The thing to remember is that you cannot build your authoring on assumptions about the way the menu buttons works. :angry:

[Fallen]

Quite true -- Hence the Happy face -- Just simplify everything from buttons directly to targets and let the player sort out the rest.

[bigotti5]

Found this in rummaging Us-patent 6553180

Function of Menu key (MENU) 5n

When a disc is set on the tray, the root menu in the currently selected video title set recorded on the disc is played back and displayed. When no disc is set, an error (or warning) display is made (OSD).

When no root menu is included in the currently selected video title set, an error (or warning) display is made (OSD).

After a menu is played back by pressing this menu key during normal playback, when the control exits the menu display by pressing the menu key, playback restarts from the position played back before menu playback or a position designated by the menu.

When the menu key is pressed while the root menu is displayed, the display state returns to that before the root menu was displayed.

Function of Title Key (TITLE) 5p

When a disc is set on the tray, and it records a title menu, the title menu is displayed. When no disc is set, an error (or warning) display is made (OSD).

When no title menu is recorded on the disc set on the tray, the following operations can be made while the disc is being played back (or in the halt state).

More specifically, when the title key is pressed, the title number and chapter number are displayed on a given portion (e.g., the upper left corner) of the screen. When the title key is pressed once again, or when a predetermined period of time (e.g., 3 sec) elapses without any key operations after that, the title number and chapter number are cleared from the screen.

When the title number (e.g., "1") and chapter number (e.g., "1") are displayed on the screen, and the user inputs a desired title number (e.g., "2"), the screen display changes to "title number: 2" and "chapter number: 1". When the playback key is pressed in this state, or when the apparatus is unoperated for a predetermined period of time (e.g., 2 sec), playback starts from chapter 1 of title 2.

In this case, during the search for the title and chapter, the title number and chapter number to be searched out on display unit 48 are flickered to inform the user that a search is in progress.

[r0lZ]

Interesting!
However, it's only a theoretical description. None of the players I have used so far are working this way! To access a title or chapter by number, the user must generally call a player specific menu. The Title menu button is useless when there is no title menu, and, on my Sony, it can be used to resume from any menu PGC to the title domain.

But I'll remember When a disc is set on the tray, and it records a title menu, the title menu is displayed.It seems that if the title menu exists, it must be displayed when the title menu button is pressed, regardless of what is currently being played (though that's not specifically said.) So, my Sony is probably wrong.

Anyway, it's another example of the enormous gap between the theoretical specs, and the real players. What's the benefit of the specs if no one respects them?