VC-1 formally approved by SMPTE!

[zambelli]

After about 2.5 years, SMPTE has finally ratified the VC-1 codec specification, also known as SMPTE 421M Standard for Television.

The standard, based on Microsoft's Windows Media Video 9 codec, was submitted to SMPTE in September 2003. Most of the changes during the development period were related to the Advanced Profile portion of the VC-1 standard which is aimed at the growing high-definition market.

News links:
http://www.betanews.com/article/Microsoft_VC1_Codec_Now_a_Standard/1144097224

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6321571.html?display=Breaking+News

You can obtain the 421M document directly from SMPTE:
http://www.smpte.org/smpte_store/standards/index.cfm?scope=0&stdtype=smpte&CurrentPage=19


Q: What exactly is VC-1? Is it a new codec? Isn't VC-1 just WMV9?
A: VC-1 is a codec specification. WMV9 is an implementation of that specification. Think of it this way: WMV9 is to VC-1 what x264 is to MPEG-4 AVC. In the context of Microsoft video codecs, WMV9 and VC-1 can be considered one and the same. Note, however, that in the future other companies may choose to implement VC-1 codecs, too.
The SMPTE standard for VC-1, SMPTE 421M, was originally based on Microsoft's Windows Media® Video 9 codec. The Windows Media Video 9 codec is functionally equivalent to VC-1; it is Microsoft's implementation of the VC-1 standard.
When people talk about VC-1 in the context of HD-DVD and BluRay, they are talking about the Advanced Profile of VC-1. This is where Microsoft has been focusing most of its development work for the last several years.

A detailed and informative overview of VC-1 can be found here:
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/forpros/codecs/vc1techoverview.aspx

Q: Where can I get a VC-1 codec?
A: The existing Microsoft WMV9 codec as included in WMP9 and WMP10 (FourCC: WMV3) is fully compliant with VC-1 Simple and Main Profile specifications.

The WMV Advanced Profile codec that was released with WMP10 and WMF SDK 9.5 (FourCC: WMVA) is NOT VC-1 compliant. It is considered deprecated at this point.

The WMV Advanced Profile 64-bit codec (FourCC: WVC1) that was released with Windows Media Encoder x64, although based on fairly old Microsoft code, IS VC-1 compliant. Its implementation is pretty similar to the WMVA encoder implementation in terms of quality and performance, but the bitstream is fully VC-1 compliant.

Finally, a 32-bit VC-1 compliant WMV Advanced Profile encoder (FourCC: WVC1) is expected to be released for beta testing later this month. The WVC1 decoder is already available for download through WMP's automatic codec download, or directly from here (http://download.microsoft.com/download/e/2/f/e2fcec4b-6c8b-48b7-adab-ab9c403a978f/wvc1dmo.cab). This one is what you would call the real deal as it's the same implementation that the studios have been using for their HD-DVD/BluRay encodings.

One way to look at the 3 AP codecs is to imagine them as v1.0, v1.1 and v1.2 versions of the same codec, the main difference being that the latter two use a different FourCC code and produce VC-1 compliant bitstreams.

[bond]

does the wmv9 advanced profile decoder (the compliant one) also handle decoding simple and main profile?

[zambelli]

does the wmv9 advanced profile decoder (the compliant one) also handle decoding simple and main profile?
Good question. I'm not sure it does. The decision to split the encoders/decoders into separate SP/MP and AP filters was probably more influenced by the upgrade paths and scenarios than anything else. It's likely that eventually all 3 profiles will be united into a single encoder DMO and single decoder DMO when there is an appropriate vehicle for the necessary installation cleanup of existing Windows Media DMOs - something like WMP, Encoder utility, etc. For the time being it's easier to release separate WVC1 encoder and decoder DMOs and let the existing DMOs handle encoding/decoding of everything else (WMV3, WMV2, WMV1, WMVP, WVP2, etc.).

[siddharthagandhi]

Oh *snap*

Will this beta be available to the public? Or is it a private testing? Is there a signup list like there is for other Microsoft software?

The only two codecs that I see will remain in the future is VC-1 and MPEG 4 AVC....the second works mad good for me and the first seems to be a breakthrough codec, for HD and normal video

[zambelli]

Will this beta be available to the public? Or is it a private testing? Is there a signup list like there is for other Microsoft software?
Yeah, it will be a public beta release.

It's even mentioned on the MS website now:
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/forpros/codecs/video.aspx

"On March 10, 2006, the Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers (SMPTE) formally published the Final Specification for SMPTE 421M, also known as VC-1. Microsoft’s implementation of VC-1 is Windows Media Video 9. The Simple and Main profiles remain unchanged from previous releases, and an update for Windows Media Video 9 Advanced Profile based on this final specification should be available in April 2006."

[cacepi]

This one is what you would call the real deal as it's based on the same implementation that the studios have been using for their HD-DVD/BluRay encodings.
Does this mean that previous encodes made with WMV9 won't be HD-DVD/Blu-Ray compatible?

I know Blu-Ray only includes support for AP@Level2, Level3; is the same true for HD-DVD?

--Edit--
"Previous encodes" meaning "encodes done at Simple and Main Profiles."

[zambelli]

Does this mean that previous encodes made with WMV9 won't be HD-DVD/Blu-Ray compatible?
When I say "the real deal", it's mostly an observation on the fact that the other two previously released Advanced Profile codecs (WMVA and 64-bit) have either not been SMPTE 421M compliant or weren't based on the latest and greatest encoder code.

I know Blu-Ray only includes support for AP@Level2, Level3; is the same true for HD-DVD?
Good question, but I honestly don't know the answer to it because I haven't read the HD-DVD and BluRay specs in enough detail to know whether they mandate full VC-1 decoder implementations, or if it's OK to only support AP. If what you say is true, then I suppose the answer is that they won't support plain WMV9 (SP & MP).

The bottom line is that anybody implementing a full VC-1 decoder should be able to play back previously encoded WMV9 SP and MP bitstreams. I imagine most software implementations would, since it's probably not much more work than just AP. Hardware could be a different story.

[lcx]

I have a lot of high-quality videos encoded in WMP10 Advanced Profile codec.
Does this mean I will not be able to watch it future versions of Windows Media Player?:eek:

[siddharthagandhi]

Of course you will be able to watch those. Its just that the codec that you used to encode them is outdated, and you would probably achieve better quality in the same file size with the new VC-1 codec. If your thinking held true right now, we wouldn't be able to view Windows Media 7 videos in WMP 10, but, we can.

[lcx]

you would probably achieve better quality in the same file size with the new VC-1 codec

Do you know that for sure? :sly:

[bond]

Do you know that for sure? :sly:no, but as m$ itself abandones the old now incompliant advanced profile encoder, it makes no sense to use it anymore

edit: also i guess m$ didnt write a new advanced profile encoder from scratch but modified the old one so it gets compliant

[Sagittaire]

Finally, a 32-bit VC-1 compliant WMV Advanced Profile encoder (FourCC: WVC1) is expected to be released for beta testing later this month

good news ...

[diogen]

zambelli,-
Will the new encoder (application) allow to keep AC3?

Diogen.

[Golgot13]

The new encoder will can make elementary stream in VC1, file with *.es extension.

And HD DVD support AP@L3 (for HD resolution).


Golgot13

[zambelli]

Will the new encoder (application) allow to keep AC3?
I can't say because no information has been made public yet and my team (Codecs) is not working on it so I don't even know for sure myself.

I know language can sometimes be pretty ambiguous when it comes to the word encoder, so let me be clear: the upcoming beta release of WMV AP is just a codec, not an application. Whether a new encoder application is scheduled to be released any time soon - I don't have that information.

Although the WME9 app doesn't let you mux AC3 streams without recompression, keep in mind that it's possible to do that using 3rd party tools such as the Solveig Multimedia ASF Muxer. The caveat of storing AC3 in ASF is that you'll need:
1) A special source filter to parse the AC3 out of the ASF container. Existing AC3/AVI source filters, such as the one made by Gabest, can do the job.
2) If you're planning to play ASF using the WMF SDK (not DirectShow), you will need a DMO version of the AC3 decoder. The WMFSDK has a weird limitation that it can't use DirectShow A/V decoders. You can use DMO decoders in DirectShow, but you can't use DirectShow decoders in WMFSDK. Makes one wonder why everyone doesn't just build DMO decoders for greater compatibility.

So bottom line: you can mux AC3 into ASF, but playing it back will require extra effort.

[diogen]

...it's possible to do that using 3rd party tools...
I know. And sometimes I use VCM and VDM to get there. But you can't cut off parts at the beginning/end inside the encoder.
I just would like the simplicity of WME with direct stream copy of AC3 into the converted video stream.
Considering WMA-Pro is not a SMPTE standard, there is hope.

Diogen.

[Liisachan]

The WMV Advanced Profile codec that was released with WMP10 and WMF SDK 9.5 (FourCC: WMVA) is NOT VC-1 compliant. It is considered deprecated at this point.


The Windows Media Video 9 Advanced profile fully conforms to the SMPTE VC-1 standard,...
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/forpros/codecs/video.aspx#WindowsMediaVideo9AdvancedProfile

The Windows Media Video 9 Advanced Profile codec is Microsoft's implementation of the advanced profile of VC1.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/howto/articles/codecadvancedsettings.aspx#Windows_Media_Video_9_Advanced_Profile_Codec_Versus_VC1__UHRG


Which is true? Am I missing something?:confused:

[siddharthagandhi]

They are talking about the WVC1 advanced profile. Although its not released yet, i'm pretty sure thats what theyre talking about.

[Liisachan]

Maybe, but I'm not sure. They say "If you install Windows Media Player 10, the Windows Media Video 9 Advanced Profile codec is installed automatically" in the same page, so they seem to be talking about an already-existing codec. Perhaps you are right, and the MS pages are just confusing as always...

[bond]

the existing one is incompliant and shouldnt be used

the new advanced profile encoder is now only available in 64bit but soon also in normal 32bit and therefore will replace the current incompliant one

[Liisachan]

Thanks bond :) So what is written in MS pages about this is inaccurate or not up-to-date, and the first post of zambelli is accurate, right?

[zambelli]

Yeah, it's the Microsoft documentation that's out of date. :( As you can imagine, the whole "WVC1 replacing WMVA" story puts us in a strange situation because we now have to go back and update all the Advanced Profile articles. Some need to be changed, while others have to be split to include separate information for WMVA and WVC1. Furthermore, it needs to be done in such a way that's not totally confusing for the public (and that's a big challenge right there). We're a big company so it's often a very time-consuming process to bring the documentation in sync with the technologies.

With VC-1 finally standardized and WVC1 encoder on its way to make a public appearance, I believe the relevant documentation will be updated soon. For the time being, though, you can assume my information is the most recent one.

[bond]

will microsoft release a lossless "old wmv ap -> vc-1 ap" converter? :D

[siddharthagandhi]

since this is a codec, not an encoder, being released, does that mean new encoder applications will have to be developed to use the codec?

or will existing encoders automatically use the newer codec?

[zambelli]

will microsoft release a lossless "old wmv ap -> vc-1 ap" converter? :D
I'm not aware of one, but I would imagine that if the business need arises, it could happen. Then again, I haven't compared the source code of the two encoders to actually know what the bitstream differences are. They might be to great for a simple lossless conversion.
The WMVA --> WVC1 migration shouldn't affect most users. Even if they have WMVA encoded content, it will continue to be playable because the WMVA decoder will continue to be available on the MS codec server.
The only way users could be truly affected is if they have a ton of WMVA encoded content, they lost the original source, and now they want to make HD-DVDs out of the encoded content so they desperately need it to be VC-1 compliant. :) Didn't DivX run into this issue a bunch of times with their MPEG-4 compatibility between versions?

[zambelli]

since this is a codec, not an encoder, being released, does that mean new encoder applications will have to be developed to use the codec?
or will existing encoders automatically use the newer codec?
The new codec is built on the DMO model just like its predecessors. Any encoder application able to use DMO video encoders should be able to enumerate and use the new codec. For example, Nic's WM encoder can use the new WVC1 encoder just fine.

The biggest difference between the AP codecs (all of them) and the classic WMV9 codec is that they use the registry to store advanced encoder settings (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/howto/articles/codecadvancedsettings.aspx) (article needs updating). This was done in order to make the encoder usable with older applications without having to modify and re-release the WM Encoder SDK. This method of exposing codec properties has its advantages and drawbacks, but in the end it really boils down to who is exposing the advanced settings through a UI. Will it be Microsoft or will someone with a bit of free time release a "WMV AP Tweak App"... we'll see.

[siddharthagandhi]

For something like Nic's encoder, how will we know that its using the VC-1 codec

will it automatically be added to that list of codecs that Nic's WMencoder has...

[zambelli]

For something like Nic's encoder, how will we know that its using the VC-1 codec
will it automatically be added to that list of codecs that Nic's WMencoder has...
Yes, it should show up as "Windows Media Video 9 Advanced Profile" in the codec list, just like WMVA does today.

[siddharthagandhi]

What would happen if we selected a bitrate lower than 2 mbps (level 0 of adv profile wvc1)...or is the level 0 inclusive of bitrates lower than 2?

[zambelli]

What would happen if we selected a bitrate lower than 2 mbps (level 0 of adv profile wvc1)...or is the level 0 inclusive of bitrates lower than 2?
The encoder typically auto-selects the profile based on resolution, framerate and bitrate. The tables that define the profiles only define upper limits, so yes, you could encode a 160x120 15fps 200kbps video as AP @ L0.
Remember that the profile definitions are really meant for decoders. It's a way of telling the decoder "you have to have these functions implemented and be this powerful in order to properly decode this content". If a decoder only implements SP and MP decoding, then it should be smart enough to reject AP encoded content. Similarly, if it only supports AP decoding up to L3, it should reject L4 content.

[CruNcher]

zambelli can we assume http://www.stereosound.co.jp/hivi/detail/bancho_117.html those will be VC-1 encoded ?
btw now that you reached what you wanted "Microsoft" will you replace WMV-HD now slowly with VC-1 :D i mean WMV-HD isn't anymore needed it's purpose was fullfield (Demonstrating how VC-1 Production would work out for Production Houses and the Film Industry and showing the consumer the benefit vs SD) so now it can go and Rest in Peace :D and all those fake titled HD-DVDs (WMV-HD labeled as HD DVD) could finaly die (they done their job, makeing consumers fuzzy) :) and so will the Asian WMV-HD capable players slowly die too and alot of people will be angry as i promised it :P (good for me i never bought such a Player forseeing it's short term future) or will it live along as a Internet format side by side to VC-1 HD-DVD ? so customers would have to buy 2 Standalones to watch Internet and HD-DVD content or do you estimate that this wont happen, because before they buy 2 standalones they sell the old one and gonna buy Xbox360s like Crazy to be able playbacking (WMV-HD and HD-DVD on 1 Device) clever task once again by "Microsofts Strategy Research Division" ;) So you made yourselfs the way free into some of our Homes living rooms (starting with the Xbox) congratulations exactly as Bill visioned it in "The Way Ahead" (Hopes people understand how important it is what happened here). Now the only thing Microsoft needs to acomplish is getting VC-1 Looseless into Film and Broadcast Cameras (Microsoft gonna buy Panavision in the Future ?) and your done Sony would be on it's knees and Microsoft would own our Broadband Lines with VC-1 or maybe 2 with GRIDTV so Satellite Broadcast Providers with H.264 would get the convert Problems you have now (all the time consumeing converts different software parser licenses would be history) So the whole Movie and Broadcast infrastructure would be Microsoft Dependent sometime in the Future :D

[siddharthagandhi]

WMV HD is encoded in the old Advanced Profile (at least those trailers are, im not sure if WMV HD includes VC-1 encodings)...VC-1 is meant to replace the old AP codec

[bond]

Zambelli already wrote, iirc, that those wmv hd dvds are using vc-1 main profile and not advanced

[siddharthagandhi]

Wait bond are you referring to the WMV HD trailers or the actual HD DVD's?

Isn't VC-1 advanced profile best suited for HD encoding...then why would they use main profile?
Its a newer codec, according to what zambelli said a better codec, so why do they use the main profile?

[zambelli]

Wait bond are you referring to the WMV HD trailers or the actual HD DVD's?
They're both talking about WMV-HD discs. WMV-HD was more than just trailers. There were entire movies released under the "WMV-HD" logo, sometimes as standalone discs and sometimes as supplemental discs in DVD sets. I think Europe was their biggest market.

Isn't VC-1 advanced profile best suited for HD encoding...then why would they use main profile?
Its a newer codec, according to what zambelli said a better codec, so why do they use the main profile?
All content out there currently marked as "WMV HD" and carrying that logo is encoded as Main Profile @ High Level. They never really got around to switching to AP when WMVA came out, which is probably for the best since we had to change the AP implementation.

HD-DVDs ad BluRay discs will use VC-1 AP encoding. They're completely unrelated to WMV-HD.

[zambelli]

zambelli can we assume http://www.stereosound.co.jp/hivi/detail/bancho_117.html those will be VC-1 encoded ?
Yes. First HD-DVD releases in North America will all be VC-1 encoded.

btw now that you reached what you wanted "Microsoft" will you replace WMV-HD now slowly with VC-1 :D i mean WMV-HD isn't anymore needed it's purpose was fullfield (Demonstrating how VC-1 Production would work out for Production Houses and the Film Industry and showing the consumer the benefit vs SD) so now it can go and Rest in Peace :D and all those fake titled HD-DVDs (WMV-HD labeled as HD DVD) could finaly die (they done their job, makeing consumers fuzzy) :) and so will the Asian WMV-HD capable players slowly die too and alot of people will be angry as i promised it :P (good for me i never bought such a Player forseeing it's short term future) or will it live along as a Internet format side by side to VC-1 HD-DVD ?
Not sure, to be honest. I would expect the same - that WMV-HD as a disc format is no longer necessary. I really don't see a future need or market for them. They were a nice experiment though. Along with DVHS, they gave us our first taste of non-broadcast HD.

So the whole Movie and Broadcast infrastructure would be Microsoft Dependent sometime in the Future :D
Heh. It's a long way between Microsoft and Sony. Microsoft is still primarily a software maker. We make a little bit of hardware on the side, but that's about all. Last time I checked, Microsoft wasn't interested in owning movie studios, music labels and making TVs. :)

But what the hell do I know, I'm just a software engineer. :)

[diogen]

...and all those fake titled HD-DVDs (WMV-HD labeled as HD DVD)... From what I remember, the WMVHD version of Terminator 2 appeared before the term HD-DVD was coined
and long before VC-1 became part of it. How can "Product A" be a fake of "Product B" if B doesn't exist?
so customers would have to buy 2 Standalones to watch Internet and HD-DVD content...
You forgot Blu-Ray.That will certainly stick around for a while...
... and alot of people will be angry as i promised it :P (good for me i never bought such a Player forseeing it's short term future)... You must be a very smart guy...:)

Diogen.

[popper]

hmm im comfused now, can someone clarify please.

i thought that both HD-DVD and BLU-RAY were mandated
to use official H.264/avc, right ?.

that VC-1 is a different codec than H.264/avc, I.e not just
an MS extended H.264/avc compatable codec, right ?.

then Zambelli says:
Yes. First HD-DVD releases in North America will all be VC-1 encoded

ok , so im in the UK and so we use PAL 50 rather than ntsc 60 but if the official world mandate is for industry standard H.264/avc , how can NA be using VC-1 ?.

is it a case of releasing VC-1 for specialist hardware
(360 and other special US players etc)before the real official world standard H.264/avc comes online later, or is it that theres some misunderstanding (on my part ?)in all the official sites and posts (BBC tec and EU hangouts) plus what i read here.

[Wilbert]

... H.264/avc or VC-1 or MPEG-2. Players must support all three of them.

[Golgot13]

The fisrt HD DVD Video in Europe, will come from "Studio Canal" company, will be in VC1 (30 movies).
But the BEST codec, to my mind, is H264 because we can have HD DVD video on DVD disc.
Now Microsoft recommend to encode video at 16Mbps in VC1 (I think it's because
the hardware is not optimized)

Next week, all will be clear: HD DVD will launch in USA with disc in VC1 and
we will have lot of news from NAB2006 show (news of video encoders software and hardware) .

Golgot13
Membership of "HD DVD"

[siddharthagandhi]

"is H264 because we can have HD DVD video on DVD disc."

What do you mean by that? H.264 will be in a high bitrate, around 10-15 mbps, and the space-saving capabilites of AVC is most effective at way lower bitrates.

VC-1 might be just as good according to what I heard from zambelli and internet links.

[Golgot13]

Simple,
if you use VC1 at 16Mbps or MPEG2 HD, a movie of 90min will take 10,8GB of space only for video.
But in H264 at 8Mbps (I see a test of H264 with bitrate at 2,8Mbps HD DVD compliant in 1920x1080 of resolution),
the movie will take only 5,4GB and you can put it on DVD disc. :D

[Golgot13]

Sorry, with HD DVD it's possible to have HD DVD Video on DVD disc (all HD DVD player read it).
It's same like miniDVD (DVD Video on CD disc).

[Golgot13]

VC1 is good codec because we don't need to have a big CPU to read HD video in this codec.
But now I can not have information to optimize HD video in VC1, only recommendation
like in HD DVD the bitrate for 1920x1080 is 16Mbps (why, I don't know ?????)

[siddharthagandhi]

VC-1 isn't even released to public yet. HD DVD and Blu-Ray didn't even come out. So why would you need to optimize right now?

[foxyshadis]

"is H264 because we can have HD DVD video on DVD disc."

What do you mean by that? H.264 will be in a high bitrate, around 10-15 mbps, and the space-saving capabilites of AVC is most effective at way lower bitrates.

VC-1 might be just as good according to what I heard from zambelli and internet links.
At least it'll degrade more elegantly than MPEG-2 when cheap studios decide to encode at some insanely low bitrate to pack too much on or are unwilling to pay for DL, or use shitty hardware encoders.

And I can almost guarantee that once HD lands in the mainstream, chinese and korean studios are going to be cranking out HD movies (pirated and otherwise) in AVC/VC-1 on regular DVDs.

[siddharthagandhi]

Why does VC-1 have to be encoded at 16 while AVC has to be encoded at 8 mbps? Why cant it be equal bitrate?

[Golgot13]

If you want to put much video bonus or game (it's possible with iHD), you need to "optimize"
the space of the disc.
And nobody want to buy some thing with high price, so in first time some HD DVD Video will be on DVD disc.
Why, because there are not lot of DVD replicator which do HD DVD (last line of singulus "Spaceline II HD"
can make HD DVD and DVD disc), so the price is expensive (HD DVD glassmastering is x 10 than DVD
for simple layer...).
VC1 is available since January, we need to have PC with Windows 2003 x64 or XP x64 with the version
of Windows Media Encoder for x64 CPU

[Golgot13]

For cracking HD movie in HD DVD disc or DVD disc, I am not sure it will be easy: AACS is very hard.
It can be update by the net or disc, and there is lot of layer (one with no encryption, one with local
encryption, one with local encrytion and network authorisation, one with with local and networking
encryption,...).
And it's possible to put more one key (one key from Studio Authoring, one more from replicator
and one from network) and there is storage space (more than 128MB) on player for key and bonus.
Thank AACS association :( :(

local encryption is for encrytion of data on the disc
network encrytion is for web connection to have key(but I don't think that lot of disc, HD DVD
or BluRay, will use it)

[siddharthagandhi]

Golgot what you've seen since January isnt the REAL DEAL...if you read this thread. The real deal is the WVC1 Advanced Profile codec. That might even surpass AVC in terms of the best codec. What you've seen is WMVA, a (i quote) "deprecated codec". (dont wry i had to look that word up too :P)

That codec sucks like hell. WVC1 should be much better.

The first post in this thread discusses how a beta of the REAL DEAL is coming out this month.

I read in the HD DVdz FAQ that the encryption can be cracked because their encryption methods are bad and stuff. But I dont think you should discuss that here or a mod will strike u or something like that.

Btw it would be extremely difficult to fit a 16 mpbs VC-1 HD DVD file on a DVD, and even with AVC at 8 mbps thats still pretty high (when i encode at 8 mbps its like 70-80 mb per minute of video so on a 4.7 GB DVD only about an hour can be stored. So if you want to include a full length movie (about 2 hours) and all the "extras" that come with DVDz normally, and assuming that the extras are 2 hours long (thats what I found the ONLY time (lol) that i actually watched that extra stuff) then that would mean four DVDz. Eventually the price for a real HD DVD disc should go down. When the first HDTV and plasma tv's came out they were well over 2000 dollars, plasma well over 4000 dollars. Now you can get an HDTV plasma for 2000 (a good one) and a HDTV for less than a 1000 (if you look around).