Pgcedit - Can't find a suitable cell to create a layer break

[jamos]

I know what the error means, but is there a way using pgcedit to fix cells (ie shift) to make them divisable by 16. I know that is the problem just do not know how to excatly fix it with pgcedit or other progs? I would like to use Imgtool to burn the iso created by pgcedit.

I am merging two double sided dvds into one so I can not use the original layer breaks.

using imgtoolburn it does burn to dl disk but it controls where the layer break is (usually in the middle of a scene causing a noticable skip).

thanks

[r0lZ]

You could try to modify the order of the titlesets, with DVD -> Remap Titlesets. With some luck, you will find a cell suitable for the LB.
You can also shrink some of the titles a little bit. This problem has less chances to occur when there is some free space left on the DVD.

[jamos]

You could try to modify the order of the titlesets, with DVD -> Remap Titlesets. With some luck, you will find a cell suitable for the LB.
You can also shrink some of the titles a little bit. This problem has less chances to occur when there is some free space left on the DVD.
Thanks, Rolz.

I cannot reorder because it is one title (ie movie only). I guess I could redo rebuilder pro to have more compression (at 98.1% of a dl dvd+r now).

Couldn't I split a cell so that the new cell meets the requirements of a layer break in blanker? If so where in pgcedit could i see if the the new cell would be suitable (ie would it be entry vobu sector, last vobu start, or last vobu end that would have to be divisible by 16)?

[r0lZ]

It's the entry VOBU sector.
Don't forget that some space is required at the beginning of the DVD for the file system. This space depends of the number of files in the compilation, but is normally a little bit less than 300 sectors.

[jamos]

It's the entry VOBU sector.
Don't forget that some space is required at the beginning of the DVD for the file system. This space depends of the number of files in the compilation, but is normally a little bit less than 300 sectors.
Thanks rolz,

I guess it is the beginning space that is throwing me off because I split a cell at > half the total sectors and the split entry sector is divisable by 16 but I still get the Can not set layer break error when trying to create the iso.

One last question where would I find the sectors used at the beginning so I can add this to my offset?

thanks!

[r0lZ]

Well, this info is difficult to find. You have to generate the ISO (but you can abort the ISO creation after a few seconds) and look for the first occurrence of the text string "DVDVIDEO_VMG" with an hexadecimal editor. This string is at the beginning of VIDEO_TS.IFO, and is therefore in the first sector that is used for the DVD files.

Or download and install the debug plugin (http://www.videohelp.com/~r0lZ/pgcedit/plugins/debug_plugin.zip), then tick the Debug Mode option and open the console with the Plugins -> Debug menu, and launch the ISO creation the normal way. Abort it when the progress bar reaches 2 or 3%, and look at the info in the console. You should see the value you need. (But I don't remember if PgcEdit will accept to create the ISO w/o a suitable layer break point!)

[jamos]

Well, this info is difficult to find. You have to generate the ISO (but you can abort the ISO creation after a few seconds) and look for the first occurrence of the text string "DVDVIDEO_VMG" with an hexadecimal editor. This string is at the beginning of VIDEO_TS.IFO, and is therefore in the first sector that is used for the DVD files.

Or download and install the debug plugin (http://www.videohelp.com/~r0lZ/pgcedit/plugins/debug_plugin.zip), then tick the Debug Mode option and open the console with the Plugins -> Debug menu, and launch the ISO creation the normal way. Abort it when the progress bar reaches 2 or 3%, and look at the info in the console. You should see the value you need. (But I don't remember if PgcEdit will accept to create the ISO w/o a suitable layer break point!)
Thanks Rolz,
I will try it the first way with dvdrebuliders iso file and isobuster. Pgcedit will not accept creating the iso without the layer break being set (which I think it should let you override that error and create the iso anyways).

[jamos]

ok looking at the iso with ISOBUSTER It looks like it starts at sector 360 correct?

4084432 , >:\VIDEO_TS\PGCEDIT_\VIDEO_TS.IFO
4084435 , >:\VIDEO_TS\PGCEDIT_\VTS_01_0.IFO
0000292 , >:\VIDEO_TS\VIDEO_TS.BUP
0000289 , >:\VIDEO_TS\VIDEO_TS.IFO
4084367 , >:\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_0.BUP
0000295 , >:\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_0.IFO
0000360 , >:\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_1.VOB
0524647 , >:\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_2.VOB
1048934 , >:\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_3.VOB
1573221 , >:\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_4.VOB
2097508 , >:\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_5.VOB
2621795 , >:\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_6.VOB
3146082 , >:\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_7.VOB
3670369 , >:\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_8.VOB

[r0lZ]

Hum, no, seems VIDEO_TS.BUP is the first file, located at sector 292. That's not a correct file structure for a DVD-Video. VIDEO_TS.IFO must be the first file, followed by VIDEO_TS.VOB (optional) and VIDEO_TS.BUP. Also, the PgcEdit backup folder is included in the compilation. That cannot work!

Anyway, you have to build the ISO with mkisofs, because every ISO creation program has his own method to create the ISO, and they can use a different number of sectors in the ISO header.

Try to use this command:
mkisofs.exe -dvd-video -no-pad -p PgcEdit -m "*[bB]ackup*" -m "Copy of *" -V "VOLUME LABEL" -o "OUTPUT.ISO" "INPUT_FOLDER"
Not sure if all arguments are required to test where VIDEO_TS starts, but that's the command that is used by PgcEdit. Adapt the 3 last arguments (in upper case) to suit your needs.

Note that INPUT_FOLDER must be the DVD folder, in which are located the VIDEO_TS and the empty AUDIO_TS subfolders. Do not specify VIDEO_TS, or the subfolders will not be created, and the header will be shorter than in the final compilation. Also, don't forget to create AUDIO_TS manually.

ISOBuster is a good program to test the starting sectors of the files.

[r0lZ]

Pgcedit will not accept creating the iso without the layer break being set (which I think it should let you override that error and create the iso anyways).
I do not agree. That's the best way to create a coaster. If PgcEdit cannot find a suitable layer break cells, the DVD cannot be burned!
But now, you know the procedure to create it anyway from a DOS prompt... at your own risk! Don't try to burn an ISO created this way!

[jamos]

Thanks for that Rolz!

here is what I have now after doing the above. Does this look better?

0000287 , >:\VIDEO_TS\VIDEO_TS.BUP
0000284 , >:\VIDEO_TS\VIDEO_TS.IFO
4084362 , >:\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_0.BUP
0000290 , >:\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_0.IFO
0000355 , >:\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_1.VOB
0524642 , >:\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_2.VOB
1048929 , >:\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_3.VOB
1573216 , >:\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_4.VOB
2097503 , >:\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_5.VOB
2621790 , >:\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_6.VOB
3146077 , >:\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_7.VOB
3670364 , >:\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_8.VOB

355 looks like the start of the VTS 01

[jamos]

I do not agree. That's the best way to create a coaster. If PgcEdit cannot find a suitable layer break cells, the DVD cannot be burned!
But now, you know the procedure to create it anyway from a DOS prompt... at your own risk! Don't try to burn an ISO created this way!
hehe..ok..:thanks:

[r0lZ]

Yes. Looks fine.

Therefore, you have to create a cell at sector (4173824/2)-355 maximum! in VTS 1 (assuming a standard DVD+R DL capacity.) Taking into account the 16 sector alignment limitation, it can be at sector 2086544 or less. Remember that it is generally not a good idea to burn something near the external border of the DVD, so, try to leave a little bit more space!

[jamos]

Thanks for the help Rolz that works. I split it at 2074637 using vob blanker, with the added 355 for the beginning stuff it comes to 2074992 which divided by 16 comes out even to 129687. PGCEDIT now shows it as a possible layer break. Took a while to browse the dvd cell to find a suitable break point where a transition occurs, but wasn't that hard.

Maybe I'll post a 'How to set a dvd layer break for dummies' thread with the steps I took, becuase I am definatly a dummy when it comes to software editing. Now DVD hardware that is my game..:thanks:

[r0lZ]

Your welcome.
Glad it worked!

[jamos]

Your welcome.
Glad it worked!
Intresting sidenote PGCedit adds 16 to my figure so it actually puts the Layer break is at absolute sector 2075008.

[r0lZ]

It's probably because you have the 32K Gap option enabled. Those 16 sectors are added between VIDEO_TS.IFO and VIDEO_TS.BUP to ensure that there are not on the same ECC block.

[jamos]

It's probably because you have the 32K Gap option enabled. Those 16 sectors are added between VIDEO_TS.IFO and VIDEO_TS.BUP to ensure that there are not on the same ECC block.
Thanks for the info.

Wouldn't an easier way to manually create the layer break would be to shift the Video_ts file to make it larger by a few sectors to adjust the layer break exactly at a chapter point? Can this be done easily in pgcedit or would vobblanker be better? How would I do this exactly in PGCedit if it is possible?

[r0lZ]

Do you mean to pad VIDEO_TS.IFO (and also VIDEO_TS.BUP) with dummy sectors instead of adding a gap between the files?

I know it is also theoretically possible to shift all the files, including VIDEO_TS.IFO, leaving the gap after the sectors reserved for the file system, but I don't have the control on that. Furthermore, I don't think it's a better solution. Modifying the VTS sectors in the IFOs is the easy way to do the shifting with mkisofs, and is fully standard compliant. The current method works well, and, honestly, I don't want to change it. There is a drawback, though: some bad burning programs (notably Nero) ignore the VTS sectors in the IFOs, and therefore, the 32K gaps and even the right layer break position are lost. Solution: use a good burning program! ;)

[jamos]

Do you mean to pad VIDEO_TS.IFO (and also VIDEO_TS.BUP) with dummy sectors instead of adding a gap between the files?

I know it is also theoretically possible to shift all the files, including VIDEO_TS.IFO, leaving the gap after the sectors reserved for the file system, but I don't have the control on that. Furthermore, I don't think it's a better solution. Modifying the VTS sectors in the IFOs is the easy way to do the shifting with mkisofs, and is fully standard compliant. The current method works well, and, honestly, I don't want to change it. There is a drawback, though: some bad burning programs (notably Nero) ignore the VTS sectors in the IFOs, and therefore, the 32K gaps and even the right layer break position are lost. Solution: use a good burning program! ;)

I meant padding I think, with my issue where my none of my cells were layer break compient, if i added size (pad) the video_TS to make it larger in sectors to align one of my chapter start sectors to be complient (example if video_01 starts 355 and I add lets say 7 sectors to the video_TS to make the start of the vts_01 at 362, then this would shift all my starting sectors +362 instead of +355. Thus the 362 + one of my starting chapter points would be complient.

(lets say the chapter I want the split is at 2069782 and with the +355 that would make it still non complient, but adding 362 (new start of the vts_01) to 2069782 I get 2070144 for the start of the chapter which is complient 2070144/16=129384.

I guess I am asking how do I manually add padding to the video_ts? can vobblanker do this? Or can I just change the sector sizes in the ifos?

[r0lZ]

That exactly the PgcEdit method. The padding is made automatically so that the layer break you select is aligned correctly (start VOBU divisible by 16.)
Your problem was different: there was no cell in the valid range, and therefore, even with an important padding. it was impossible to select a LB position.

[jamos]

That exactly the PgcEdit method. The padding is made automatically so that the layer break you select is aligned correctly (start VOBU divisible by 16.)
Your problem was different: there was no cell in the valid range, and therefore, even with an important padding. it was impossible to select a LB position.
Got it so maybe shrinking it a bit more would of fixed it.:D would you say around 96% of the maximum size of a dvd-9 would be ideal because I can set total sector size in DVD_REBUILDERPRO ie what sector size would you suggest for a dvd-9?

[jamos]

Setting Rebuilder pros total DL sectors to 4010480 seems to work well 97.15% space used of a dvd+r DL. I got one good layer break at a chapter break:thanks: .

[r0lZ]

The exact space to allocate to the movie depends on the number of files, the size of the IFOs of your DVD, the 32K gap option, and, most importantly, the size of the cells.

My guess is that approx 2086000 sectors are normally available on layer 0 for the movie (in the case of a movie only backup.)
Of course, there is little chance that a suitable LB cell is located exactly at this position, so the correct target size is difficult to compute. If your movie is made of numerous tiny cells, with some luck, you should be OK with 96% of the total size of the media. But if there are only some large cells, you could have to use 80%, or even less.

Trick: Use DVD Shrink in reauthor mode, with no compression, to locate the cell that is suitable for the layer break. Use the start/end option to cut the remaining cells, and note the compression percentage and size needed to put part 1 of the movie on the DVD. Do the same measure with part 2. This should gives you an idea of the size to use.
(Don't forget to change the target DVD size to half the sectors available on your DL media!)

[EDIT:] I was typing while you posted your last message. Seems you found the perfect value!

[jamos]

The exact space to allocate to the movie depends on the number of files, the size of the IFOs of your DVD, the 32K gap option, and, most importantly, the size of the cells.

My guess is that approx 2086000 sectors are normally available on layer 0 for the movie (in the case of a movie only backup.)
Of course, there is little chance that a suitable LB cell is located exactly at this position, so the correct target size is difficult to compute. If your movie is made of numerous tiny cells, with some luck, you should be OK with 96% of the total size of the media. But if there are only some large cells, you could have to use 80%, or even less.

Trick: Use DVD Shrink in reauthor mode, with no compression, to locate the cell that is suitable for the layer break. Use the start/end option to cut the remaining cells, and note the compression percentage and size needed to put part 1 of the movie on the DVD. Do the same measure with part 2. This should gives you an idea of the size to use.
(Don't forget to change the target DVD size to half the sectors available on your DL media!)

[EDIT:] I was typing while you posted your last message. Seems you found the perfect value!
Nice tip thanks!

But, I think dvd rb-pro is oversizing the dvd9 size too much to achieve a good layer break, even with small cells, Default is like 98.7% capacity when it tries to fit to a dvd dl.

For anyone using Rebuilder pro you probably want to add this to the rebuilder.ini file in the [options] section to start with.

DLTargetSectors=4006870

that will get you 96% capacity of a dvd+r dl I believe.
(reduce this size if you can not get a suitable layer break).

[jamos]

With this sector total in the rebuilder.ini I found this setting to work well in giving a possible layer break mastering with dvd-rbpro then using PGCedit to set the layer break and create the iso.


DLTargetSectors=4006080


This works well for movies with good size chapter breaks.

[mborland]

So I ripped a movie, let's call it Apollo 13, using DVDD. Now trying to use PCGE to burn a copy. Not able to find a suitable cell for layer break.:(
So where am I going wrong? I also tried using DVD Fab to rip it, same result. Unfortunately am using DL-R, but I haven't even got to the ImgBurn stage yet.
On a related note, I assume :confused: that I cannot just make an ISO rip and ISO burn onto DL-R, but that I could using DL+R?
:scared:
TIA

[r0lZ]

Might be because this DVD is very full, and mkisofs uses a larger header than in the original. Try to remove some logos or warnings in the VMGM, or the whole VMGM video, if possible. (Uses Blank Out All Menu PGCs.)

And yes, you can do a 1:1 ISO image backup on a DL DVD+R (but not on a -R!)

[mborland]

:thanks:
but...
more problems

shrunk it some with shrink, PGCE gave me 3 choices for LB, none colored. I used the default it presented. made the iso. go to burn with imgburn direct from PGCE and it says the image is invalid, no valid LB found:confused:
i have imgburn set to AUTO LB, correct?
about ready to give up on this, i have 20 DL-r yet to waste away...
i have the log from PGCE if it helps...

mkisofs log for DVD "APOLLO_13"
From: "D:\shrink2_Apollo_13"
DVD-TEXT General Name: ""
Provider ID: ""
Number of VTS: 6
Output file: "C:\SHRINK2_APOLLO_13.ISO"
Volume label: "APOLLO_13"
Running under windows (OS type: Windows NT)

mkisofs 2.01-bootcd.ru (i686-pc-mingw32)
Layer break is at absolute sector 2092896. (Offset in L0 is 264626.)
Layer break cell:
1828270: VTST 1 , 1 TTN 1 (2:19:43) Title 1 Cell 14 (00:03:58.15), V/CID: 1/14

The pad was 264626 for file VIDEO_TS.VOB
Total translation table size: 0
Total rockridge attributes bytes: 0
Total directory bytes: 4248
Path table size(bytes): 42
3930228 extents written (7676 MB)

ISO created OK.

[r0lZ]

i have 20 DL-r yet to waste away...
-R, really? If it's the case, you must copy the exact number of sectors in L0 from the ImgBurn log to the field of the burn setup dialog, and be sure to set the DL media type to -R!
It is really not easy to burn DL-Rs. You should use +Rs.

Anyway, send me your IFOs (the one you just tried to burn, after the DVDShrink processing.)

[jamos]

-R, really? If it's the case, you must copy the exact number of sectors in L0 from the ImgBurn log to the field of the burn setup dialog, and be sure to set the DL media type to -R!
It is really not easy to burn DL-Rs. You should use +Rs.

Anyway, send me your IFOs (the one you just tried to burn, after the DVDShrink processing.)
Sounds like he may have DVD+R set in his PGCEdit burn prefrences for dual layer and trying to burn that to a dvd-r dl:logfile: . the layer break seems to be pretty high for a dvd-r dl (since they hold less sectors than dvd+r dl).

[r0lZ]

the layer break seems to be pretty high for a dvd-r dl (since they hold less sectors than dvd+r dl).No, 2092896 is the "standard" capacity in L0 of a DL -R. And when burning a DL-R, L0 must be completely filled with data!
But I've read somewhere that some DL-Rs have less (or more) sectors in L0. So, the correct value should always be verified with ImgBurn, before launching the ISO creation.

Anyway, I'm tired of the problems with DL-Rs. I think I will not reply to questions about this crappy format anymore. The only way to avoid problems is to use the good technology: +Rs.

[jamos]

No, 2092896 is the "standard" capacity in L0 of a DL -R. And when burning a DL-R, L0 must be completely filled with data!
But I've read somewhere that some DL-Rs have less (or more) sectors in L0. So, the correct value should always be verified with ImgBurn, before launching the ISO creation.

Anyway, I'm tired of the problems with DL-Rs. I think I will not reply to questions about this crappy format anymore. The only way to avoid problems is to use the good technology: +Rs.
Well said..I really do not know of any home dvd players that play dvd-r dl anyways..

@mborland you could use imgtoolburn to burn the disk from a ripped file directory (ie VIDEO_TS), it will force a layerbreak where it wants to (may not be where exactly you want it) but it seems to work with my home sony dvd players, but then I use dvd+R.

[setarip_old]

@jamos

Hi!the layer break seems to be pretty high for a dvd-r dl (since they hold less sectors than dvd+r dl).Are you certain of this? I ask because the situation is just the reverse regarding SL media - DVD-Rs have a capacity 6Mb greater than do DVD+Rs...

[jamos]

@jamos

Hi!Are you certain of this? I ask because the situation is just the reverse regarding SL media - DVD-Rs have a capacity 6Mb greater than do DVD+Rs...
not sure, read somewhere that layer 0 is smaller or maybe it was fixed and has to be full to that point (not sure on total sectors).

here is what I read:

This type of Disc has a fixed layer break whereas DVD+R DL discs have a break point that can calculated and changed. (thanks to arniebear)

Verbatim DVD-R DL (stats as stated on disc cover)
8.5 GB
215 min
Dual Layer

Warning: Don't attempt to put a Dual Layer (DL) disc into a non-DVD-R DL recorder. It can (and most probably will) result in damage to media/data. Check your DVD Drives' manifacturers site to see what you've got.

link:
http://www.afterdawn.com/glossary/terms/dvd-r_dl.cfm

I guess for data these would work fine, but what home dvd player will work with them?

[jamos]

@jamos

Hi!Are you certain of this? I ask because the situation is just the reverse regarding SL media - DVD-Rs have a capacity 6Mb greater than do DVD+Rs...
http://www.videohelp.com/~r0lZ/pgcedit/third_party/blutach/dl_burning_with_pgcedit_files/image004.png

I beleive the dvd-r is about 230000 sectors smaller for dual layer. Notice single layer dvd-r is larger.

[jamos]

Hey Rolz,

Can you if you have time in the next release of PGCedit, show where the target sectors lie between when you get the "cant find a suitable layer break" message so we can know exactly where to split a cell? You do show the range when you can find a suitable layer break in the top of the choose a layer break dialog box, but if you get the error message now the program locks and you have to hit the close x button to close down the program after this occurs.

Ideally would love to see a message simular to this:
"Cannot find a suitable layer break between sectors 1999008 and 2086912"
where the sector number would depend on size of dvd.

thanks!

[r0lZ]

OK, I will try to do it, and perhaps also display the cell in which the layer break should be placed. And fix the bug, too!

[jamos]

very nice Rolz! ;)

new sample error message from upcoming version 7 of pgcedit:
http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/5074/layerbreak0te.th.jpg (http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=layerbreak0te.jpg)