HD Formats

[siddharthagandhi]

Theres WMVHD (WM Encoder 64 bit VC-1 or WMV9 with high bitrate), Divx HD, MPEG-2 HD (i cant find an encoder for this). In your experience which gives the best quality for best compresssion?

My tests used Nic's WM Encoder, Tsunami MPEG Encoder (5 mbps DVD bitrate), and Divx HD set to 6 mbps bitrate, MPEG-4 Cinema AVC Nero Digital. Divx by far had the worst bitrate, and the screen was fuzzy. I'd say the worst out of all of them. Nic's WM Encoder has great compression at extremely high bitrates (i put 25 mbps bitrate and not only did it encode fast it was 50 mb per minute of video). Tsunami MPEG was similar to WM Encoder except you cant configure the bitrate beyond the DVD standard of 5 mbps. Nero Digital took the longest time to encode, while Divx took the shortest. Nero Digital also had contrast problems in which the screen was too light. I'd say MPEG-2 and WMV9 were the best choices I did, and lol thats probably why they're the basis for the blu-ray and hd-dvd discs. As expected, when I tried making the files a true HD with 16:9 (1280 by 720 resolution) it took hours longer to encode (i didnt finish the encoding; i cut it off short because of this).

My source file was an uncompressed avi. Can that be considered an HD source? The bitrate on that was close to 30 mbps, and it was perfect quality. Please tell me if anything I'm doing is wrong or if my source isnt valid for encoding in HD.

[Latexxx]

So basicly you did a high bitrate windows media file (25 mbps) and say that it looks significantly better than DivX at 6 mbps.

Hmm, I wonder why my Ferrari is faster than my Wartburg.

[siddharthagandhi]

Yea i did that but even if i matched the bitrates WMV is much better.

[MrTroy]

I'd say MPEG-2 and WMV9 were the best choices I did, and lol thats probably why they're the basis for the blu-ray and hd-dvd discs.
Uh, HD DVD and Blu-Ray use MPEG4...

[Hellworm]

To compare the quality of various codecs, you have to encode at the same bitrate, a higher bitrate yields to a higher Quality.
regardless of Quality a lower bitrate is normally considered "better" because you get smaller file sizes. But of course if you need to fill your hd thats different.

Your source file is HD if it has HD-resolution, it's not the questions if it is uncompressed.

[Hellworm]

Yea i did that but even if i matched the bitrates WMV is much better.

How do you know? It had five Times the bitrate!!!

Edit: Okay four times.

[siddharthagandhi]

I reencoded in another bitrate as well.

But is an uncompressed avi file with a bitrate of 30 mbps a valid soruce to use if you want to encode in HD, considering that the bitrate of WMVHD is one-sixth approx of that?

I read the HDDVD and Blu-ray FAQ on digital digest and it said that MPEG-2 and VC-1 were the codecs for these discs.

[siddharthagandhi]

And I'm not a video noob I know about bitrates. When i distribute my videos i'm going to do so on cds or dvds, and thus I can afford to have HD file sizes and get the HD quality.

[foxyshadis]

30 mbps does not sound like HD to me. I have a few 24p 720p streams sucking up drive space, and they're 50 mbps with huffyuv, as uncompressed RGB they're 700 (!) mbps. HD is 1280x720 or 1920x1088, generally; 540p is like a halfway house between SD and HD (unless it's a downconvert from 1080i).

Most mpeg-2 encoders can do HD, such as HC, CCE, or Quenc, and I know TMPEGenc will do at least 9. Are you sure you're using the mpeg-2 version and not the mpeg-1 version?

[bond]

every encoder can encode HD, if someone promotes his encoder as an "HD encoder" its only marketing bullshit

[Soulhunter]

Uh, HD DVD and Blu-Ray use MPEG4...
...MPEG4 (AVC), VC1 (WMV9) and MPEG2, heh!?


Bye

[communist]

Divx HD set to 6 mbps bitrate (...) Divx by far had the worst bitrate, and the screen was fuzzy. I'd say the worst out of all of them.
What? Worst bitrate? I thought you made sure to have it at 6 mbps?

Tsunami MPEG Encoder (5 mbps DVD bitrate)
DVD isnt fixed at 5 mbps.

Tsunami MPEG was similar to WM Encoder except you cant configure the bitrate beyond the DVD standard of 5 mbps.
You can - just unlock and type in any bitrate you like. In fact I just created a 60 mbps MPEG1 stream with it.

I'd say MPEG-2 and WMV9 were the best choices I did, and lol thats probably why they're the basis for the blu-ray and hd-dvd discs.
MPEG2, MPEG4 (AVC) and VC1 are used for HD DVD & Blu-ray.

My source file was an uncompressed avi. Can that be considered an HD source? The bitrate on that was close to 30 mbps, and it was perfect quality.
Uncompressed HD at 30 mbps - ok yeah sure why not :p

Please tell me if anything I'm doing is wrong or if my source isnt valid for encoding in HD.
Pretty much everything in your comparison is flawed - however if you found WMV to work for you - yeah then stick to it.

[siddharthagandhi]

If 30 mbps doesnt sound like HD, then why are WMVHD bitrates 6 mbps bitrate (the ones from microsoft.com)

Tsunami MPEG Encoder, when i encode in DVD gives me some crap M2v and wav file...i want only one freaking mpeg-2 file...and for that the bitrate max is 8000...and for svcd i try sticking up the bitrate and it gives me a limit of 2500

I want one mpeg-2 file with a bitrate i can customize...so what encoder do i use...
i tried avi to mpeg converter by IMTOO and it doesnt give me a 25mbps file it gives me a 800 kbps file...

And I need a freeware encoder my budget is tight...

"Divx HD set to 6 mbps bitrate (...) Divx by far had the worst bitrate, and the screen was fuzzy. I'd say the worst out of all of them."

that was a typo i meant it had worst quality

"You can - just unlock and type in any bitrate you like. In fact I just created a 60 mbps MPEG1 stream with it."

How do I unlock? And what thing (SVCD, VCD, DVD) did you use?

WMVHD works yes...but WM Encoder has contrast problems and Nic's encoder takes a really long time to do its stuff...

I want to try out MPEG-2 though because with lower bitrates of 2 mbps mpeg-2 works out better than wmv or anything else for me

_____________________________________________________

Alrite heres my point: I want to know if its possible to create HD from the source I mentioned and what encoder I should use (if there is a better WMVHD one or a MPEG-2 one) for that?
And anything else you think I should know because you people seem to know more than me.

[foxyshadis]

If 30 mbps doesnt sound like HD, then why are WMVHD bitrates 6 mbps bitrate (the ones from microsoft.com)
What we're trying to say is either your source is already compressed or it isn't HD. Bitrate doesn't matter; what is the resolution? Resolution defines HD, not bitrate.

And contrast problems are player problems, not encoder; try using overlay output or update to the latest nvidia drivers (which correct output contrast).

[siddharthagandhi]

OMFG You're exactly right. I play it in Nero Showtime and it looks excellent. Thanks a lot man. That changes my entire perspective on codecs and formats. Now I'm staying with Nero Digital.

And I didn't know about the resolution thing. Is it okay to upscale in resolution? Like from 640 by 360 to 1280 by 720?

And I found that HC MPEG encoder was by far the best. I conver the .m2v to .mpeg using MPEG Streamclip.

[MrTroy]

...MPEG4 (AVC), VC1 (WMV9) and MPEG2, heh!?

That's what I was trying to say. Maybe it would've been better to include the word "too".

[Hellworm]

And I didn't know about the resolution thing. Is it okay to upscale in resolution? Like from 640 by 360 to 1280 by 720?

It will look exactly the same as if you play a not resized version, that is resized by your player, because the resizer can not add details that aren't there in the source. And additionally you video comprerssion will have more Problems compressing the resized source.
So resizing is pretty senseless.

[bond]

It will look exactly the same as if you play a not resized version, that is resized by your player, because the resizer can not add details that aren't there in the source. And additionally you video comprerssion will have more Problems compressing the resized source.
So resizing is pretty senseless.well, when playing your SD file the stream gets upsized with bilinear resize normally to fullscreen
so when you do the upsizing yourself with a better resizer you can get a better quality

but obviously a bigger picture also needs a higher bitrate for giving good quality

[Audionut]

You can encode video at 100MB/s, it ain't gonna mean diddly squat.

You can resize video to HD resolutions. That don't mean shit either.

High-def is video captured at HD resolutions. End of story.

edit: Having said that. If you have video that was captured at HD resolutions, and encode it with mpeg-1 at 500kb/s with the same resolution, it's still classed as HD. As Foxyshadis said, "Bitrate doesn't matter; what is the resolution? Resolution defines HD, not bitrate."

[siddharthagandhi]

Okay listen up. I now have an HD source, the resolution being 1280 by 720, and according to my readings of microsoft.com, that resolution is a valid source for encoding in HD. Now, what is the best HD encoder/format, i want the best compression for the lowest file size (i dont care about encoding time).

[Doom9]

you didn't just ask what's best, did you? Just don't ever do that in this place again. And you are hereby encouraged to make your own tests and find out what works best for you, because that's all that matters.

[MrTroy]

Okay listen up. I now have an HD source, the resolution being 1280 by 720, and according to my readings of microsoft.com, that resolution is a valid source for encoding in HD. Now, what is the best HD encoder/format, i want the best compression for the lowest file size (i dont care about encoding time).
About quality/filesize: DivX HD is very good at this. It achieves 'real HD quality' at bitrates of only 3.5 MBit/s.

[siddharthagandhi]

How about this (is this an allowed question): which HD encoding format works best for you?

And I have already tried Divx HD, even at 6mbps it doesnt give me the quality i need. To achieve good quality i have to encode in mpeg-2 and wmv at 11 mbps, but if there was a better encoder it might be possible to achieve the same quality with a lower bitrate.

[Audionut]

Browse these forums.

Encode a short sample of your clip with different encoders.

Make your own choice.

[Doom9]

[qutoe]which HD encoding format works best for you?[/quote]this forum is about people who are capable/willing to find out for themselves.. those that are not capable of doing so and unwilling to learn, there's plenty of other forums out there that don't have rules that force you to make an effort.

[siddharthagandhi]

I do do that but if there is an encoder that I don't know about that works better I want to know about it. I went for months without knowing about MPEG-4 H.264 untill in a forum i found out about it.

[Doom9]

there's something called a codec comparison.. the most extensive and carefully performed you'll find on the net. That should at least point you in the right direction as to availability of codecs and what they're roughly capable of doing. The rest is up to you..

[Guest]

How about this (is this an allowed question): which HD encoding format works best for you?
Just ask what people use and keep the "best" out of it. Thank you.

[MrTroy]

And I have already tried Divx HD, even at 6mbps it doesnt give me the quality i need. To achieve good quality i have to encode in mpeg-2 and wmv at 11 mbps, but if there was a better encoder it might be possible to achieve the same quality with a lower bitrate.
Well, imho no method has such good quality/filesize ratio as DivX HD. For similar quality, Quicktime HD, WMV HD, XviD HD all use much higher bitrates. Please note I'm not saying DivX has highest quality of all these codecs ('cause that would undoubtedly lead to offtopic responses), only saying that the q/c ratio is very good.

I haven't tried RV10 though.

[siddharthagandhi]

I'm not going to argue with you, because you're right, what works best for me is what I should use. But you can't possibly deny the fact that certain codecs are generally better than others.

Ex. Divx is undoubtedly better than Indeo 4.5 or Microsoft Video 1.

[Doom9]

Ex. Divx is undoubtedly better than Indeo 4.5 or Microsoft Video 1.If your goal is to play a video on any windows box without installing additional drivers, then Indea is a better choice ;) So you see, best is extremely subjective.

[siddharthagandhi]

By "better" I was referring to quality/compression ratio.

[Doom9]

By "better" I was referring to quality/compression ratio.Now you're catching up.. better is subjective and situation dependent. That's why we don't allow oversimplifications and forbid questions that indulge such oversimplifications. Best can be used for a very specific and well defined scenario.. and since most people are unwilling/uncapable to define such a scenario before using the word best, it is not permitted.

[siddharthagandhi]

Okay so ill change my question again, this time conforming to the rules that the other moderator (not Doom 9, the other one, im just too lazy to go back and look) said.
I'm also trying to make my own WMVHD dvd (following the authoring guide at microsoft.com) and thats one reason why i need HD video, and also because I want to use high-quality video in my web site (and i have enough space for it)

What HD encoders/codecs do you use and why do you favor the one you currently use over the rest?

(i cant possibly go wrong with that one, seeing that a doom9 team member said i could ask that)

[communist]

What HD encoders/codecs do you use and why do you favor the one you currently use over the rest?
Cancel that HD out - its all marketing hype and BS, with no real change in the codec. Unless the programmers deliberately crippled the encoder (CCE basic only does SD AFAIK though MPEG2 allows way higher res) every codec should encode at 1x1 and 4096x4096 (unless the codec has been programmed from start up to only work at up to XxY) or whatever.
For instance "DivX HD" is the normal DivX Codec just with HD profile - it wont encoder better - its just a profile to conform to a res/fps/birate etc. You can encode the same source without selecting the HD profile, by just using the unconstrained one. Though at this point it is not guaranteed that it will play in players that are certified for DivX HD.

Since you're talking about WMV go look at Microsofts website - they're the only ones creating WMV encoders. Everything else (Nic's wmv encoder / wmv encoder in ProCoder) uses that. So you do not have a broad choice of implementations which is one of the reasons why WMV is not the most favored codec here.

Anyway I dont favor any HD encoder (what a stupid thing) because I dont have any HD source material (nor am I interested in creating such stuff from SD material) and because the ones I'm currently using for my SD encoding do (and have been doing that for a quite some time without the need to be rereleased as HD editions) encode at higher than HD resolutions just fine. Decoding might be a problem but the point is they have been doing that for ages :p

[siddharthagandhi]

Alrite. I'm still where I started, even after all this mess..

[Audionut]

Alrite. I'm still where I started, even after all this mess..

That's because you are only looking for a quick answer, which you are not going to get on this forum.

Instead of reading people's posts for what they are. "answers".

there's something called a codec comparison.. the most extensive and carefully performed you'll find on the net. That should at least point you in the right direction as to availability of codecs and what they're roughly capable of doing. The rest is up to you..
http://www.doom9.org/codecs-104-1.htm
http://www.doom9.org/index.html?/codecs-final-105-1.htm

Browse these forums.

Encode a short sample of your clip with different encoders.

Make your own choice.

[siddharthagandhi]

is there a way to encode xvid in a container other than .avi?...because i read something about that on this site but i didnt find anything on how to do it..

[bond]

is there a way to encode xvid in a container other than .avi?...because i read something about that on this site but i didnt find anything on how to do it..
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=98469

[Audionut]

http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=65889

[zambelli]

WMVHD works yes...but WM Encoder has contrast problems and Nic's encoder takes a really long time to do its stuff...
Just to be clear: Microsoft WM Encoder 9 and Nic's WM Encoder use the same encoder DMO, so don't think there's a difference in implementation. One should be just as fast as the other. If you look at Nic's source code, you'll see that he uses the SDK class CUncompAVIToWMV to do the encoding. Both apps are really just frontends, nothing more.