using cce instead of reempeg -> OW no sync !

[ender]

Hi !

at first: "YOU ARE MY ONLY GOD, DERROW"

:-)

No, seriously thank you for making this possible ...
But of course the whole method has 3 problems:

-1- It is complicated ( lots of steps )
-> this is already cared for by cupid2001, GOOD LUCK for the automation tool !!!

-2- Reempeg is very slow
-3- Reempeg has a BAD quality


BUT Problem number -2- and -3- could be solved by using cce !!!

So i tried, here are my steps, please correct me where/if i did wrong, because as you can see in the subject, i failed miserably ...


Steps:

(1) I ripped the whole DVD ( Fightclub, PAL, German ) to HD with DVDDecrypter

(2) i did some math:

-The whole DVD is 6.88 GBytes big.
-The main movie is 6.76 GBytes
-> So we have leftovers of 0.12 GBytes
-The main movie is 2:13:25 long, containing only 2 AC3 tracks
( i do not calculate the SBT and other tiny stuff, i stay on the safe side )
-So the Sound part is approx 8005 seconds * 384000 kbps * 2 / 8 / 1024^3 = 0.72 GBytes ( rounded up )

-This means: if i do not want to strip ANYTHING, only reduce the video Bitrate, i have a target size of 4.3 GByte, and i already need 0.12 GBytes ( menus & stuff, see leftovers ) + 0.72 GBytes ( Sound ).
-This means, for video i have left 4.3 - 0.12 - 0.72 = 3.46 GBytes !
-Okay, as my movie is 8005 seconds long, this means i have to encode at a Bitrate of: EndSize[GByte] * 1024^3 * 8 / Movielength [seconds] / 1000 = 3.46 * 1024^3 * 8 / 8005 / 1000 = 3712 kbps .

I used 3700 kbps to be on the save side ... ( i also used 4.3 GByte instead of 4.38 for the same reason, no one wants to work for hours to have a movie 10 bytes to long :-)

Sorry to paint this all out in so much detail, but maybe someone benefits from it, or you find mistakes ...

Soooo after that cce did a GREAT job on the video ( parameters: video settings: "Add sequence" ON, "Progreesive frames" ON, "DVD compliant" ON, "Luminance level" 0 to 255, "Intra DC precision" AUTO, "Aspect Ratio" DAR 16:9; GOP settings: all default; Quality settings: "Image Quality Priority" 25, "Anti noise Filter" OFF; CBR coding to 3700 kbps ( see above for maths ) Output of ES video only ).

-- of course the "progressive" and "aspect ratio" stuff depends on your specific movie !!! --


cce coded with close to 1:1 speed ( it had 23 fps on my Athlon 1.4 GHz ) and the Output Quality was AMAZING ( remember i did NOT rescale the movie and used about 60% of original Bitrate ).

Okay, now i got my new video stream, so i fired up ifoedit 0.6.

First i opened the MAIN .ifo to get rid of region coding.
Then i opened the .ifo of the main movie file, used "Vob Extras" ( i deselected "strip" because i wanted to keep EVERYTHING ) to select a destination and the encoded video file ( i had to rename the cce output from .mpv to .m2v ).

After a while of torturing my Harddisk ( first combining vob files, then correcting them it seems ) ifo edit was done, and i saved the new .ifo to the target directory.

Then i copied over all leftovers ( speak -> all unaffected DVD files ) to the new directory, and VOILA i had a new DVD with the size of 4.27 GBytes ( as close to 4.3 as i hoped it to be ).

BUT when playing single .vob files or the whole DVD, the sound & video is not in sync ( sound seems to be "faster" so more and more the picture seems to come before the sound comes ).



What did i do wrong, it would be sooo good to get it working, this would be fast & good and with a bit of automation we could get every dvd within 3 hours ...

Okay, please comment on this...


Ender


P.S. i got templates for cce & howtos ready if you need it ...

P.P.S. my suspicion is, that the movie is 24 fps in reality, and that dvd2avi -> vfapi produces 25 fps out of it, so cce encodes 1/25 th more movie than it should, and thus after everything the movie is 1/25th slower, or is this BS ??

[kdiddy]

Well not only is that your problem, but it was indeed discussed using TMPG in my legendary post a while back....but the key is while yes TMPG work and with great quality, there has not been a way to retain chapters points with reducing the bitrate with anything other than rempeg transcoding...wasnt sure if you were trying to maintain the chapter points or not...if not, there is a MUCH easier way to do this.

[ender]

Hi !

So the easier method would be ?? ( maybe you got a link, so much threads going on about this ) ??

With that easier method i loose exact chapter points, but the rest is okay ???

Of course i could simply remaster the dvd, because dvd2avi could simply rip the .ac3 audio while analyzing the .vobs ...

but that would SUCK :-)

Thanks,

Ender

P.S. But shouldn't the recalculation of the capter point be ifoedit's job ?!?! or did i get something wron, sorry for my ignorance, but i just recently upgraded from producing svcds to dvds because of my pioneer dvr a03 :-)

[kdiddy]

Yes, fixing the chapter points is ifoedits job..however when you encoded the movie using anything but transcode, you lose the cell ID flags that are embedded in the video stream..these flags are needed to tell the ifoedit which chapters are what for redirection....so now that they are gone, ifoedit can not do its job....The ideal situation would be to a a good encoder (IMO, TMPG) be able to reduce the bitrate &/or resolution inside oif a vob file without messing up all other information (I think I'll ask Santa Claus that for Xmas, LOL)..

Now IF you ont care about retaining chapter points, then it would be much easier to demux your audio & video tracks, re-encode video with CCE if you wish...then remux that with your audio using BBmpeg or Streamweaver into a vob files, make sure that you rename them to exact same as the original vobs, then run ifoedit...again you will lose chapter points and only have the ability to keep ONLY 2 audio tracks...but it works.

[ender]

Ahh thats is the problem, thx for pointing that out to me !!!

Aehm, currently i simply rip the ac3, reencode the vob and then reauthor it, how would i create vob files when muxing ??

Thx for the hint ...

Ender

P.S. those cell id flags ( that i am totally ignorant of ) ...
Are they stored in each frame or each gop, or totally independent ??
( I ask, because depending on the nature one could also copy the cell id's from old to new vob structure ?!?! )

[Derrow]

Originally posted by ender


at first: "YOU ARE MY ONLY GOD, DERROW" :-)


Thank you.
Like to hear that.

So I will keep on the good work.

[kdiddy]

"P.S. those cell id flags ( that i am totally ignorant of ) ...
Are they stored in each frame or each gop, or totally independent ??
( I ask, because depending on the nature one could also copy the cell id's from old to new vob structure ?!?! )"

That would be a better question to ask Derrow, Im not too sure about that.

"how would i create vob files when muxing ??"

By using BBmpeg or Streamweaver, load up mpeg2 video & ac3 audio, mux, and chose save as vts_xx_x.vob.

[Derrow]

Originally posted by kdiddy
"
Are they stored in each frame or each gop, or totally independent ??
"


Cell-ID's are stored in each VOB-Unit. GOP's and frames are part of a VOB-Unit.
Just use VobEdit, then you can see it by your self.

I've planed to build a new function, in IfoEdit, to rebuild 'Chapters' in VOB-files, base on the IFO file, if you re-authored your VOB files with an authoring tool.

But I don't have a clue yet, when it will be finished.

[ender]

That sounds good derrow, so there is still hope we can use cce at some point instead of rempeg.
It is so sad that rempeg is discontinued, because the approach is the only suitable one ...
I do not think that source code is available somewhere to work on it, is it ???
( does anyone know if the rempeg author simply quit, or if he was forced to quit ?? )

Meanwhile my crappy PC is doing nightshifts using reempeg instead of 2 hour turns using cce.
The part that really bites me is that cce is not only 4 times faster but also 2 times better, THAT HURTS ...


Okay, thx for explaining stuff to me, as i said, i am not a complete idiot, but i just upgraded from SVCD to DVD :-)

Greetings,

Ender

[GlenC]

Hello Derrow,

Is there any news on recreating the chapters after cce has re-encoded the mpeg stream? Not pestering for it or anything...just wondering ;)

Great program..keep up the good work!

[Derrow]

Originally posted by GlenC


Recreating chapters has nothing to do with cce.
Chapter will work fine, on re-muxing with ifo-edit, even with cce.
The re-creation of chapter's is just needed, if you use an authoring tool to create your VOB files for burning.

[Derrow]

Originally posted by ender
That sounds good derrow, so there is still hope we can use cce at some point instead of rempeg.


I hope so. It should already work perfect.
But since I did not test it yet, I can't tell you, what's the problem.
The cce-stuff is not working with win2000. So I have to install win98 first to check it out.

Derrow

[chilliman]

thx Derrow for get step by step guide and great program.

Anyone knows how its going for cupid2001 with his automation tool??

[Derrow]

I had a preview on his automation tool, and it looks realy great, but nothing is working yet.
As I know, he's wether very busy, or on holiday's right now, so he doesn't have the time, to code further on his tool. (pitty):(
But he will continue the work in about 2 weeks.

[Derrow]

Originally posted by chilliman
thx Derrow for get step by step guide and great program.


Great, that you like it.
Jesus, it's still so much left to write further doc's, which cost me expensive time, that I rather would invest into enhancing IfoEdit.
But I suppose a good How-To effort you more at the moment, as a new function, where nobody knows, how to use it.
So I'll keep writing doc's right now.

Anybody, how wants to submit something for the site, is welcome!
derrow@yahoo.com

[merlin]

Hi
I have the same problem with IFOEdit and CCE.
Everything is working but when i open the new VOB files with WinDVD 3.1 the Video ist faster then the Audio.
Video and Audio starts on the same time. It looks like the Video is missing some frames.
I check the m2v File with WinDVD and there is everything ok.
I mux the m2v and the ac3 (extract with DVD2AVI) file with another tool. Open it with WinDVD and looks ok.
I import the m2v file again with IfoEdit with the same result.
Chapters ar working but the movie start on the wrong position.What is the problem?

merlin

[ender]

hi merlin !

i am glad to see that i am not the only one having this effect.

So it is not only because i am stupid :-)

But lets wait & see, now that derrow has all tools he needs, maybe he finds the time to play around with cce and see for himself.

The reencoding speed & quality is SO far beyond reempeg that everyone will switch to it as soon as it works with ifoedit ...

until then i burn simple movies without ifoedit by reauthoring the audio tracks & the reencoded m2v streams.


Ender

[ender]

@derrow:

what do you mean, it is not working under w2k ??

it works perfect for many people under w2k.

Please mail detailed problems/question, maybe i can get it to work ...


Ender

[merlin]

CCE 2.62 is running with w2k and xp and i have never a problem.

merlin

[mpeg]

Originally posted by ender


Soooo after that cce did a GREAT job on the video ( parameters: video settings: "Add sequence" ON, "Progreesive frames" ON, "DVD compliant" ON, "Luminance level" 0 to 255, "Intra DC precision" AUTO, "Aspect Ratio" DAR 16:9; GOP settings: all default; Quality settings: "Image Quality Priority" 25, "Anti noise Filter" OFF; CBR coding to 3700 kbps ( see above for maths ) Output of ES video only ).


@Ender,
please try turn on "close GOP" in GOP settings.
I try server disk and all ok.
How do you open mpeg2 in CCE. I use DVD2AVI.

[Derrow]

I assume this mpeg2dec.dll is only running on AMD/Athlon CPU.

[ender]

hi !

@derrow :

no, i run it on a P4 now ...

you can try another frameserving method to cce, not avisynth, like you do now, but vfapiconvert, which produces a "virtual" .avi file out of the .d2v file, i'll send you the vfapi stuff, maybe that works better for you.


Ender

[merlin]

I try "close GOP" in GOP settings. The same problem again.
I use DVD2AVI -> vfapiconvert to a AVI -> CCE 2.62

merlin

[Derrow]

2Ender,

now I've got it to work with avisynth!
There was a registry entry missing for VFPPlugin.
This entry will be created, if you install the origianl DVD2AVI v1.74
Now finaly the mpeg2dec module doesnt produce an exception anymore.

Can someone make me some screenshots of best CCe-options,
which options makes the best results?

Derrow

[ender]

derroe,

i sent you 2 regfiles, doubleclick the latest one, and you should have 8 templates in cce.
Simply choose one of the templates, drag the .avi / .avs file in cce and then only adjust the bitrate and ENCODE.

Please tell me if you got trouble with it.
( Preferably via E-Mail !!! )


Ender

P.S. if the registry template stuff doesnt work out, i send you screenshots, please let me know what you need vie email.

Ender

[Derrow]

Yep, no screenshots needed anymore. Thank you. :)

I transcoded now a small movie with cce, and found the trouble.
I'm right on to figure something out, so maybe later I can give you a solution.

[merlin]

I hope you can realy fix it. CCE is a very fast for encoding.

merlin

[Derrow]

I'm not so sure, if I can get it working, but I'll try.
It will take me some more day's to figure out something.
Maybe IfoEdit will get an authoring tool. :)

[ender]

Now that would be something to put in Santa Claus' Bag


:-)


Thanks man,

Ender

[mpeg]

ender,
after many test,I know what's the problem.
I think you direct open vob file in dvd2avi,this will cause problem. Try to rip the m2v file,then open it in dvd2avi,then d2v,vfapi,cce.
I test for two dvd, vob will make about 1-2 sec out of sync,but m2v is good.

[ender]

hi !

mpeg, no i dont think that is the problem, i treid both.

Lets see, derrow is working on a solution ...

cya,

Ender

[Roveer]

I've read most of this thread and some of it gets a little confusing, so let me try a few direct questions. I'm sure a few others will benefit from the resulting responses. I know those (Derrow & friends), are working on a utility to make this work more automatically, but I'm chomping at the bit to give this a try.

I want to rip a 7.8gb DVD onto a DVD-R I'd really like to use CCE for the encoding. (all I want is the movie and the AC3 sound track), no subtitles.

If this is possible can someone put together a list of steps to do this (and settings in the programs). There are a few messages here, but they always go off on other tangents. If we can put this together as a simplified listing of steps and settings a few of us may be able to get some good results.

I use smartripper to get the DVD onto my hard drive. After that I'd like to know what needs to be done and with what programs.

DVD2AVI??? What settings, video & audio??

I assume that audio has to be extracted (what program, what settings)

Video needs to be re-encoded (cce?, Frameserving?, what method, and how). Also important is what versions!!! some work, others don't

Pulldown??? (haven't quite figured out when this is needed)

More audio conversion?

bbmpeg??? This puts the vid/aud together?

Derrows stuff?

As you can see I'm a DVD2SVCD user and have gained most of my limited knowledge by watching what DVD2SVCD does.

If we can get a accurate list of what needs to be done and what settings and versions, I think we can go with that till one of these amazing coders comes out with DVD2DVD!!!

Thanks for putting up with my ignorance.

Roveer

[ender]

In that thread:

http://rilanparty.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11672

i posted a kind of howto ...


Ender

[Roveer]

Thanks for the quick reply. I saw this right after posting my original msg and printed it. I'm going to give it a try this afternoon. Thanks for the good work!!!

Roveer

[merlin]

Hi
I have testet the new IfoEdit 0.8. The Video and Audio Stream are againe not sync. But now i have a new problem. Video and Audio stop all the time and jump some Pictures. Is there a special way to use CCE?

merlin

[rmtaibo]

Same thing happen to me.
Movie encoded with TMPGEnc (only movie extras, the main movie I used Rempeg2)
When played DVD+RW on a standalone player:
Main movie (vts_01_x.vob) made with ReMPEG: Played Ok (I Didn't use rebuild PTS)
Movie Extras (vts_02_x.vob) made with TMPGEnc: the first 6 seconds of the movie played fine, but after this video and audio stops and jump every 2 seconds aprox.(I used rebuild PTS)
I think the Rebuild PTS option on IfoEdit 0.8 doesn't make its job as good as we expect.

Peculiar thing:
using ATI File Player (MMC 7.5)
original vob: Shows 3:52.00 total time lenght.
TMPGEnc encoded m2v file: Shows 5:00.02 total time lenght.
final vob after IfoEdit: 3:52.00 total time lenght.

And all of them has same number of frames.

[OnErr0r]

I also tried IFOEdit .8 on the Matrix. I used DVD2AVI 1.76 and CCE to encode using the same settings ender described. Video/Audio are Async. Movie playback is choppy with WinDVD. I hope you can get this to work Derrow. Thanks for your hard work :)

[ender]

AND A HAPPY XMAS TO ALL YOU GUYS

by the way :-)


Ender

[Derrow]

What a pitty to hear that.

I thought that at least everything should be in sync now.
I know the new function is not perfect yet, but it should give better results then the old one.

I will keep getting it to work perfectly.

[3tv]

i just read a rather nice guide on using cce, i have no idea weather it will result in better use with ifoedit.
Maybe one of you guys wants to give it a whirl.



you can find it


here (http://www.semutrangrang.com/robshot/index2.html)

have fun

[Eagleone]

Robshot's guide works well for cce encoding. (btw you can get it at www.robshot.com)

I can confirm as well that muxing a cce .m2v file via ifoedit .8 does not yet work correctly. I checked the .m2v file before using ifoedit, it is playing ok. When vob is produced by ifoedit it skips frames to maintain audio/video sync.

I think the problem is in multiplexing. I confess ignorance here but as an idea maybe the original movie GOPs are not the same as the cce reencoded GOPs. Rempeg allows for this, but other encoders dont (cant). I did some work with rempeg and it showed that not all gops are the same(IPB stuff). Maybe this is one parameter that need to be taken into account. Another parameter could be the various rff flags which would not necessarily correspond to the reencoded video.

Anyway it is a good effort. Happy new year to all!!

[3tv]

so, if ya take the newly created cce m2v file + the ac3 and other tracks from the original vob you could use some authoring software, such as maestro to create a new vob with synced audio, then use ifoedit but skip the remux. Would you have all the chapter points intact or would these need to have been added in maestro?

cheerz

[mpucoder]

Eagleone brings up a very important point. When encoding for NTSC you must enable pulldown, or IfoEdit cannot remux the video. There is also a program available from Doom9 for setting the rff/tff flags, but it did not perform well for me.
Question for everyone having problems remuxing CCE video - NTSC or PAL?

[Derrow]

I just transcoded my first movie with CCE and remuxed it with my new IfoEdit version, and get a terrible result.
The movie is not watchable. It hops, stops. Just terrible.

The problem is the huge difference between the number of frames in the original movie, and the created m2v file by CCE.

I think there might be a solution to it, right now.
In CCE you must adjust the GOP options, to let CCE produce nearly the same frame-count, like in the origianl movie.
Use VobEdit, to analyse your origianl VOB file. Go through some 'Navigation Pack' and look at the Cell elapsed time.
This way, you can count how much frames, each Vob-Unit has.

Now that you know the frame-count in original, adjust in CCE the GOP options, to produce GOP's with nearly the same frame-count.
The remuxing with IfoEdit should work better then.
I'm going to check that out with my movie now.

[OnErr0r]

mpucoder: I'm doing NTSC. I did use Force Film in dvd2avi 1.76 and then pulldown 99c (available from www.videotools.net) http://www.horizon.nl/~michel/bin/pulldown.zip

But that just adds flags not frames... so I'm trying Forced Film off and encode ALL the frames. Somewhat slower as its 29.97 frames as opposed to 23.976, but if it works...

Derrow: Are you using NTSC or PAL? And what applications to frameserve to CCE and CCE settings?

Thanks guys!

[SkoalWintergreen]

the frams problem shouldn't be an issue if you don't use forced film in DVD2AVI, for an NTSC film when you DVD2AVI with 29.97 frames, and the reencode with CCE, you should have exactly the same number of frames as you do with the orginal file, for CCE settings I would recommend reading the guide at Roboshot (http://www.semutrangrang.com/robshot/index2.html) he does a lot of weird stuff at the end I wouldn't worry about just calculate normally, the sync issues have to be in the remux, my question is for Darrow if I remux the VOB, in something like streamweaver, how can I get the VOB back into the movie properly using IFoedit, and can you put the chapters back in?

[Eagleone]

Some quick answers. I use PAL so 3/2 pullldown is not a factor. In rempeg when the log (.vinf) file is created you can see the frame sequence. Mostly it is the same as cce but every now and then there is one like "IPB" then on to the next one.

At the start of the movie everything works together then from about 1-2 minutes the fun starts. Subtitles dont work either. No fast forward or rewind.

The same cce encoded video can be multiplexed with Streamweaver and oringal audio creating a new vob sequence. I have other problems there but no sync or fast fwd/rwd problems. I can not test it further since I have no authoring program which can accept ac3.

I will try rempeg on the same video tonight.

[mpucoder]

This is a little off-topic, but the flags added (rff/tff) are what make a 23.976fps play at 29.97 - there are no added frames in NTSC movies, just flags that tell the player to repeat a field (twice for each group of 4 frames). These flags also tell IfoEdit how long each frame will display, and from there the elapsed time of the GOP is calculated.
ReMPEG2 copies these flags - also it displays both the actual frame count and the displayed frame/field count.
What would be nice would be a program to gather those numbers to run on CCE output and compare with the original.
The composition of the VOBUs is another story, and most likely is the cause of remux problems, but I know someone who's working on that right now :)

[SkoalWintergreen]

Just wanna make sure this goes to the top, b/c the make or break point for 1:1 DVD copying right now is in the hands of someone figuring out how to remux CCE without sync issues!

[Eagleone]

Well rempeg works with ifoedit. This means that ifoedit is useful now as it is. I am sure you people can make rempeg (or similar) better and faster. Lowering just a little bit the average bitrate while maintaining original GOP structure in all units is the key.