Where can I find VC-1 decoder?

[azurex]

Hi, I want to find some VC-1 decoder, anyone can help? thanks

[kotrtim]

By installing Windows Media Player 10?

Where did you get a VC-1 encoded video clip? Is it WMV9 advance profile?
I haven't seen any VC-1 encoder available.

[diogen]

...I want to find some VC-1 decoder, anyone can help?
The 64-bit version of Windows Media Encoder is VC-1 compliant.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/9series/encoder/versions.aspx

Diogen.

[bond]

vc-1 = wmv9

m$ is the only provider of widely available wmv9/vc-1 stuff

[zambelli]

Hi, I want to find some VC-1 decoder, anyone can help? thanks
If you play a video with "WVC1" FourCC code in Windows Media Player, it will automatically grab the decoder from the Microsoft codec server.

To save you the trouble:
http://download.microsoft.com/download/e/2/f/e2fcec4b-6c8b-48b7-adab-ab9c403a978f/wvc1dmo.cab

[Sirber]

http://download.microsoft.com/download/e/2/f/e2fcec4b-6c8b-48b7-adab-ab9c403a978f/wvc1dmo.cabWhat can he do with the cab?

[Koti]

Unzip it to get the codec .dll and .inf file :D

[bond]

If you play a video with "WVC1" FourCC code in Windows Media Player, it will automatically grab the decoder from the Microsoft codec server.

To save you the trouble:
http://download.microsoft.com/download/e/2/f/e2fcec4b-6c8b-48b7-adab-ab9c403a978f/wvc1dmo.cabwhats the difference to the normal wmv9 decoder?

[zambelli]

whats the difference to the normal wmv9 decoder?
New FourCC code, for one. :) This decoder handles WMV Advanced Profile streams that are VC-1 compliant.

Let me elaborate a bit more on that: because the new VC-1 compliant Advanced Profile codec has slightly different specs than existing WMV3 and WMVA codecs, as well as a new 4CC code (WVC1), it's much easier to deploy a brand new decoder DMO to systems that don't have a WVC1 decoder.
It's reasonable to expect that in the future the various WMV decoders might be grouped into a single decoder DMO - but that'd require some house cleaning, which is beyond the capability of Windows Media Player and the Microsoft codec download server.

[bond]

Let me elaborate a bit more on that: because the new VC-1 compliant Advanced Profile codec has slightly different specs than existing WMV3 and WMVA codecswhat are the differences?

[Inventive Software]

@Bond: Probably that it supports 1080p Advanced Profile. You did post in the WME x64 thread about this, AFAIK.

[zambelli]

what are the differences?
WMV3 (aka WMV v9) supports only up to Main Profile. The WMV-HD videos are encoded with WMV3 using MP@HL profile.

WMVA was Microsoft's first stab at Advanced Profile, before the VC-1 spec was submitted to SMPTE.

WVC1 is Microsoft's new implementation of Advanced Profile, now compliant with the SMPTE VC-1 spec. It will replace WMVA as the codec and 4cc for WMV Advanced Profile videos.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/forpros/events/NAB2005/VC-1.aspx has a table of all the different profiles covered by VC-1.

[Sagittaire]

@ zambelli

C'T Magazine, Germany's premier audio-video magazine, compared various codec standards—including VC-1, H.264, and MPEG-4—and selected VC-1 as producing the best subjective and objective quality for HD video.

I test wmv9 32 bits version with objective test and H264 (actually) is very better and by far than wmv9. RV10, MPEG4 ASP or VP7 done better result too at this time ...

There are quality improuvement for VC-1 advanced profil ... ???

[bond]

WMV3 (aka WMV v9) supports only up to Main Profile. The WMV-HD videos are encoded with WMV3 using MP@HL profile.

WMVA was Microsoft's first stab at Advanced Profile, before the VC-1 spec was submitted to SMPTE.

WVC1 is Microsoft's new implementation of Advanced Profile, now compliant with the SMPTE VC-1 spec. It will replace WMVA as the codec and 4cc for WMV Advanced Profile videos.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/forpros/events/NAB2005/VC-1.aspx has a table of all the different profiles covered by VC-1.thx for the info!

[CruNcher]

WMV3 (aka WMV v9) supports only up to Main Profile. The WMV-HD videos are encoded with WMV3 using MP@HL profile.

so this is what all the WMV-HD Movies that are released for PR are encoded in but i remember that Tomb Raider 2 shows something with Advanced for Audio and Video in the properties hmm

[Isochroma]

Where can the VC-1 directshow decoder filter be found, and will VC-1 encoding be available in the next Windows Media Encoder?

I was unable to find the VC-1 filter after careful searching. Am looking for a redistributable package for offline machines.

[bond]

hum, read the thread :rolleyes:

[CruNcher]

there is no Dshow decoder yet only the official DMO from Microsoft for now it seems.

[akupenguin]

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/forpros/events/NAB2005/VC-1.aspx has a table of all the different profiles covered by VC-1.
Ok for the levels, but what's in the different profiles? You don't need a new codec just to increase max resolution/bitrate.

[killerhex]

anyone know of a encoder like that decoder.cab file to encode into VC-1

[zambelli]

Ok for the levels, but what's in the different profiles? You don't need a new codec just to increase max resolution/bitrate.
The profiles have more to do with defining decoder requirements than actually delivering different features. Some profiles do support different features than the others (i.e. interlaced encoding). The idea is that more advanced profiles demand greater decoder complexity and have higher hardware requirements. So it's not so much about "what you get" as it's about "what you need" for each profile.

The best explanation of VC-1 and its Microsoft implementations (WMV3, WMVA, WVC1) that I found so far is on Inlet's home page:

http://www.inlethd.com/support/vc10fourcc.html

Inlet makes the Fathom card, an HD encoder accelerator.

[zambelli]

there is no Dshow decoder yet only the official DMO from Microsoft for now it seems.
The DMO decoder works just as well in DShow graphs, so it's unlikely MS will be providing a pure DShow (.ax) decoder unless some huge legacy app compatibility requirement comes up.
I can already tell the next question is going to be: "What about VfW?", so I'll answer that right away. The answer is: I don't know. :)

[zambelli]

@ zambelli
I test wmv9 32 bits version with objective test and H264 (actually) is very better and by far than wmv9. RV10, MPEG4 ASP or VP7 done better result too at this time ...
I've never seen the C'T Magazine comparison, so I've no idea what codecs they actually compared (or how long ago that was). That bulletin point specifically says "HD", which can also make a difference.

There are quality improuvement for VC-1 advanced profil ... ???
Absolutely. You don't think WMV devs have just been on a long lunch break since WMV9 was released, do you? :)
Remember that profiles define upper boundaries, not lower boundaries. You can use an advanced profile codec for a 640x360 encode just as can use it for 1920x1080 encode. All the work that has been put into WVC1 development should show across the board, not just for HD encodes.

[bond]

Absolutely. You don't think WMV devs have just been on a long lunch break since WMV9 was released, do you? :)of course not, they have been working on wmv10. m$' next closed spec, closed source codec ;)

[zambelli]

of course not, they have been working on wmv10. m$' next closed spec, closed source codec ;)
Right, all this SMPTE standardization was just a diversion. We've secretly been making a new version of MS Video 1 (now embedded with DRM *within* the codec). The super secret codename is... you ready?... MS Video 2. We haven't decided on a fourCC yet, but we're thinking "SHAM".
:sly:

[bond]

come on, dont tell me m$ isnt working on a new closed specs codec ;)

[zambelli]

come on, dont tell me m$ isnt working on a new closed specs codec ;)
Are you seriously asking that? The whole point of VC-1 standardization was to get the video industry to consider Microsoft's codecs as serious options. Why would Microsoft want to take a step backwards now?

[bond]

as i understood it m$ was forced to open the wmv9 specs because bodies, like the dvd forum, refused to include a closed spec video codec in their formats

anyways i would be willing to bet 100€ that m$ will come up with a new closed video codec
simply already because do you really think that m$ plans to use vc-1 forever? definitely not. video coding tech moves on fast. just as mpeg-2 is outdated today, avc and vc-1 will be outdated sometime too

[diogen]

...m$ was forced to open the wmv9 specs because bodies, like the dvd forum, refused to include a closed spec video codec in their formatsMS knew this was going to happen when they took it to the standards body. Although Amir won't tell how many companies are in the patent pool, MS isn't alone.
My understanding is, MS got such treatment not because WMV was closed (AC3 _is_ closed and is in DVDs), but because it is Microsoft:sly:
...m$ will come up with a new closed video codec... I think this has a chance to happen if the nextgen DVD formats fail (go the SACD/DVD-A route or is hacked like today's DVDs). One can even speculate that MS is much less interested in their (formats) success, than in quickly moving to VOD where the PC (or XBox) is back at the center of the playback chain (deals with Cable Labs, DirectTV, Kudelsky Group). Bill G. even says he believes it is the last optical format for the next 5 years or so. Sony obviously thinks Blu-Ray is here to stay for at least 10.

Diogen.

[Hans Ohlo]

so i have to ask, because it is going under in this thread.

is the WME x64 edition able to encode avanced profile WMV9 (aka VC-1)?

i use the windows media 9 vcm to encode using virtual dub, i choose complex decoder profile and high quality using two pass encode. which wmv9 profile does this match?

[Inventive Software]

:search:

This has already come up. For the record, it can.

[Hans Ohlo]

:search:

This has already come up. For the record, it can.
i tried the search but nothing came up.

[zambelli]

is the WME x64 edition able to encode avanced profile WMV9 (aka VC-1)?
Yes, but keep in mind it's still using the old FourCC WMVA (the new one will be WVC1) and that it's a pretty old build of Advanced Profile encoder. The stream is VC-1 compliant, but Microsoft ought to have a more recent version of AP coming out soon, so if you're not in a hurry, it might be worth to wait a little.
i use the windows media 9 vcm to encode using virtual dub, i choose complex decoder profile and high quality using two pass encode. which wmv9 profile does this match?
Probably Main. If it's high def, it's most likely Main @ High Level.
I'm actually not sure what happened to Complex profile in the grand profile scheme of VC-1. Interesting point.

[Hans Ohlo]

Probably Main. If it's high def, it's most likely Main @ High Level.
I'm actually not sure what happened to Complex profile in the grand profile scheme of VC-1. Interesting point.
thanks for your explainations.

how current is the codec of the vcm version, because the WME has a much younger date than the vcm at the microsoft download sites.

another thing i noticed is that with the WME it is not possible to do a two pass encoding in wmv9 advanced profile. will this be possible when the new encoder comes around? with the quality vbr mode it is impossible to reach particular file sizes.

[bratao]

zambelli,
Seen like you already touch the new encoder.
Can you talk about the speed/quality ?? or you are under Nda ??
Thanks !

[zambelli]

how current is the codec of the vcm version, because the WME has a much younger date than the vcm at the microsoft download sites.
The VCM hasn't been updated since it first came out back in July 2003. Microsoft commonly uses WMP updates to refresh the DMO codecs though, so the last update of WMV9 encoder/decoder DMOs was probably with WMP10 in fall 2004.

another thing i noticed is that with the WME it is not possible to do a two pass encoding in wmv9 advanced profile. will this be possible when the new encoder comes around? with the quality vbr mode it is impossible to reach particular file sizes.
Yes, this was a limitation of the WMVA codec in particular. WVC1 won't have this limitation, so yes, by the time the new encoder comes out, 2 pass VBR will be usable with Advanced Profile again.

[zambelli]

Seen like you already touch the new encoder. Can you talk about the speed/quality ?? or you are under Nda ??
Correct, I am indeed under NDA so I can't really talk about specifics a lot. I will say this much: You will be able to test the new codec for yourself soon. I will post the news in this forum the moment the download becomes available.

[Hans Ohlo]

Yes, this was a limitation of the WMVA codec in particular. WVC1 won't have this limitation, so yes, by the time the new encoder comes out, 2 pass VBR will be usable with Advanced Profile again.and thanks again for that info ;) can you tell us if there will be an updated vcm again? because this enables us to use other apllication for encoding vc-1.

i have some very important stuff (to me) to encode here. can you give a very small hint, how long i have to wait for the new encoder?

[zambelli]

can you tell us if there will be an updated vcm again? because this enables us to use other apllication for encoding vc-1.
You mean like a VC-1 compliant VCM codec? I haven't seen or heard anything about it, but perhaps I just haven't been talking to the right people. I imagine that if such a thing was planned, it'd probably come after Vista is out since that's taking up most dev+test resources at the moment.

[siddharthagandhi]

Hey Zambelli do you work for Microsoft or something? Because you live in Seattle, and your avatar is Windows Media.

Anyways, I dont understand half of these terms. Whats a VCM? Whats a WMVA? Could someone explain all these terms?

And about VC-1 codec.....we're going to be able to encode in it soon?

Is the VC-1 thing going to be encoded only from the Windows Media Encoder or can we use our private applications?

Is the VC-1 designed to be an HD codec as it is on the Blu-Ray and HDDVD discs, or can it also be used for internet distribution?

How will it compare to the current leading codecs, especially H.264/AVC encoding?

What other features, details, or info about the VC-1 can you tell me?

Thanks to whoever answers these questions. If there is a link to a FAQ about VC-1 can you please post that as well?

[siddharthagandhi]

By the way, I visited the link in the first post of this page. It refers to WM9 Advanced Profile as being the same thing as VC-1. I already encode in WMV9 Advanced Profile using Nic's Encoder. Does that mean that I'm already encoding in VC-1?

Edit: And one more thing. Is the Windows Media HD export profile in Sony Vegas the same thing as VC-1?

[zambelli]

Hey Zambelli do you work for Microsoft or something? Because you live in Seattle, and your avatar is Windows Media.
Yes, I do. I am a software test engineer in the video codec group. Sorry if I don't always make that clear, but I'd hate for people to think that I'm here as an official spokesperson or something (or even worse, that I'm here to push a corporate agenda). I'm here primarily because I've been a Doom9 forum member for many years, even before I joined MS. The fact that I can act here as a liaison to the MS codec group - that's just an added perk of my job. :)

Anyways, I dont understand half of these terms. Whats a VCM? Whats a WMVA? Could someone explain all these terms?
VCM is the Video Compression Manager, an old Video for Windows (dates to early 1990s) interface for video codecs. A lot of apps, such as VirtualDub, can only use VfW/VCM/ACM for compression and AVI as container. Because of its maturity, AVI still enjoys the widest support, so many people still prefer VCM codec interfaces.

DMO is DirectX Media Object, the latest Microsoft format for codecs and transform filters. It's compatible with both Windows Media Format SDK and DirectShow, but so far it hasn't really caught on outside of Microsoft.

WMVA is the FourCC code of Microsoft's Windows Media Video Advanced Profile codec. The first version that was released with WMP10 in fall 2004 was not VC-1 compliant (the VC-1 draft was only being submitted to SMPTE at the time). A more recent 64-bit version was released with WM Encoder 9 x64 and IS VC-1 compliant (although not much different than the original). Confused yet? Hang on, it gets better. The next release of WMV Advanced Profile (fully VC-1 compliant) will use a different FourCC code, WVC1, thus essentially making WMVA a deprecated codec. Rather than refering to them as "VC-1" (which would be a misnomer, since that's a spec, not an implementation) or "Advanced Profile", I refer to them by their FourCC codes to make sure everyone is clear what I'm talking about.

The sudden change of FourCC code might seem confusing, but it's actually a good idea since it leaves no room for doubt whether WVC1 encoders/decoders are VC-1 compliant.

And about VC-1 codec.....we're going to be able to encode in it soon?
Simple and Main profiles of VC-1 are already included in WMV v9 (FourCC: WMV3). We're working on getting WVC1 (Advanced Profile) out soon. I can't say much more than that.

Is the VC-1 thing going to be encoded only from the Windows Media Encoder or can we use our private applications?
Like all our codecs made in the last several years, this one will also be of the DMO type, which unfortunately somewhat limits the number of apps you'll be able to use it in. WME9 will certainly support it. Apps like Nic's Encoder will probably only need to make minor changes in order to support it. Really any app that's built to use the DMO codec model can use it. It's just unfortunate that there aren't many yet out there. :(

Is the VC-1 designed to be an HD codec as it is on the Blu-Ray and HDDVD discs, or can it also be used for internet distribution?
Absolutely. VC-1 defines 3 profiles: Simple, Main and Advanced. Advanced is specifically designed with HD in mind, but the profile definition has more to do with decoder requirements than encoders really. You could also encode HD with Main Profile (that's already done in WMV-HD DVDs because VC-1 MP is implemented as WMV9), but you could just as well encode a 160x120 video as Advanced Profile. :)

How will it compare to the current leading codecs, especially H.264/AVC encoding?
I think it's fair to say VC-1 is meant to be a direct competitor to H.264/AVC both in terms of quality and efficiency.

Thanks to whoever answers these questions. If there is a link to a FAQ about VC-1 can you please post that as well?
I'm somewhat embarassed to say there currently isn't a good description of VC-1 on Microsoft's website, or at least not one more recent than this (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/forpros/events/NAB2005/VC-1.aspx). In the meantime, you can refer to the Wikipedia description of VC-1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VC-1

[zambelli]

By the way, I visited the link in the first post of this page. It refers to WM9 Advanced Profile as being the same thing as VC-1. I already encode in WMV9 Advanced Profile using Nic's Encoder. Does that mean that I'm already encoding in VC-1?
Nic's encoder is probably using the non-VC1-compliant version of WMVA, since that's the only Advanced Profile version currently available on 32-bit Windows.
Edit: And one more thing. Is the Windows Media HD export profile in Sony Vegas the same thing as VC-1?
If it's using WMV9 Main Profile for its HD encoding, then yes, you're already producing VC-1 compliant streams.

[Sagittaire]

I think it's fair to say VC-1 is meant to be a direct competitor to H.264/AVC both in terms of quality and efficiency.

Compare VC-1 to the best H264 encoder (x264, Ateme and Elecard) is a good chalenge for Microsoft. But I think that VC-1 standart is in theory inferior to the AVC/H264 standard. But perhaps too that MS develepper will more talented than current H264 developpers ... ???

wait and see ...

[siddharthagandhi]

Thanks for answering all my questions.

Just one more: Since the Advanced Profile that I currently use isn't VC-1 compliant, and a VC-1 compliant Advanced Profile codec is going to be released, will this Advanced Profile be much better than the current Main and Simple Profiles. Like, say if I encode at Level 0 (2 mbps bitrate) in the advanced profile VC-1 compliant codec, will it's quality/compression ratio generally be better than the current main and simple profile 2 mbps encodings?

What I'm really trying to find out is am I waiting for a major codec improvement in VC-1 advanced profile or will it be the same thing as the current WMV9, just with higher bitrates for HD encoding...

Now, about the issue of competition to H.264. Frankly, at this point in time WMV does not beat out H.264. Its one of the best codecs out there, but in my opinion, H.264 gives a lot more bang for the megabyte. I encode using Nero Digital, and the 2 mbps encodings look excellent. WMV on the other hand, isn't as sharp as H.264, and same color areas (im doing video game recordings, in this case I'm referring to the walls of Blood Gulch) are blurred often. As of now, WMV gives competition, but doesnt beat H.264. I don't know about VC-1, but according to what Zambelli said it might be just as good.

Also, those articles claim that WMV achieves similar quality at one-third the bitrate of MPEG-2. I find that this is only true for low bitrates, <2mbps, but for higher bitrates 5-10 mbps MPEG-2 is just as good as WMV.

Heck, while I'm at it, I'll ask some few more. The Microsoft web site says that you can encode VC-1 from Windows Media Encoder x64 edition, but in this forum you said that it was not the actual WVC1 codec, it was the same thing I use in advanced profile nic's wm encoder (WMVA). Or am I miscomprehending what you said?

At this point in time who has access to this WVC1 codec besides Microsoft?

I googled WVC1 codec and there was a download link for a decoder...

[diogen]

...Also, those articles claim that WMV achieves similar quality at one-third the bitrate of MPEG-2.
I think this goes back to the one and only comparison between MPEG-2, WMV and H.264 done many years ago by the DVD Forum:
WMV at 7.7Mbps beat MPEG-2 at 24Mbps (D-VHS) twice. H.264 was always the last.
A lot has changed since. According to Amir and Ben W. VC-1 is a lot better now than used now WME with 9.5 SDK.
Sony's Blu-Ray movies will use a new MPEG-2 encoder that is supposedly very good.
H.264 has improved leaps and bounds over the last few years.
I find that this is only true for low bitrates, <2mbps, but for higher bitrates 5-10 mbps MPEG-2 is just as good as WMV.I think the opposite is true: 5-10Mbps WMV is at least as good as MPEG-2 at twice the bitrate: just have a look at T2EE.
Given 20+Mbps MPEG-2 can be transparent to the source.

Diogen.

[siddharthagandhi]

Well, I tested this out several times and I get what I said before. Its a fraps video game recording (uncompressed avi). Nonetheless, MPEG-2 isnt that great of a format compared to WMV overall.

One more question to add onto the list (lol): In Windows Media Encoder I see two profiles: Windows Media 9, and Windows Media 9 advanced profile. The advanced profile is WMVA rite? Then how do i distinguish between the simple and main profiles if there is only one profile? And what is this Windows Media 9 Image profile? In Nic's encoder I also see Windows Media 9 Screen....and there also Image v2...what are all of these

Edit: BTW I use HC encoder for MPEG-2 and Nic's Encoder for WMV when I did my tests.

And also, is there any way that I can "fake" a 64 bit OS in order to install or use Windows Media Encoder x64, or install that on my 32 bit OS....i know its probably not possible but is there some hack or something like that?

[siddharthagandhi]

And one more thing: From this link:

http://news.com.com/Blu-ray%2C+HD+DVD+players+Clunky%2C+unimpressive/2100-1041_3-6024750.html?tag=nl

"Blu-ray promises discs with 50 gigabytes of storage, which means nine hours of high-definition storage or 23 hours of standard-definition storage. It also offers bit rates of 48mbps, stunning compared with standard DVD bit rates, which weigh in at just 10mbps. For its part, HD DVD will offer up to 45GBs of storage and up to 12 hours of HD playback."

I calculated for that bitrate of 48 mbps the file size is roughly 94 mb per minute of video.....How is that possible...? Are we going to be able to achieve that bitrate in that file size with VC-1? My 8 mbps files have a file size of 94 mb/minute. And yet these Blu-ray and HDDVD are doing 6 times that bitrate.????

[bond]

Compare VC-1 to the best H264 encoder (x264, Ateme and Elecard) is a good chalenge for Microsoft. But I think that VC-1 standart is in theory inferior to the AVC/H264 standard. But perhaps too that MS develepper will more talented than current H264 developpers ... ???forgot your own results???
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=105763

my own tests also show me that wmv9 has a hard time beating even the best asp codecs (xvid) at 1cd bitrates, not to speak of the best avc codecs...

i think wmv has been created as competitor to mpeg-4 asp and realvideo at a time avc wasnt finalized
it of course uses better technologies than asp which means it can theoretically be better than asp but i doubt m$' implementation atm is (except maybe at ultralow bitrates or ultrahigh bitrates)

[siddharthagandhi]

True that. WMV is a great codec because of its Windows compatibility and the wide variety of encoders for it, as well as its ease of use for noobs and beginners, but its quality/compression ratio is questionable. For some reason, Xvid goes horribly amiss in my encodings; the quality is atrocious and the file sizes are scary. But its probably not designed for fraps video games screen captures. But AVC codecs there is no doubt that its not close to the level where AVC is at. I'm hoping that VC-1 meets and beats the expectations and surpasses MPEG-4 H.264/AVC in its overall quality....it sounds very promising.