Requested: Half D1 and Half Space fo Menus

[pg55555]

jdobbs

It would be possible to offer for Menu Encoding the same options we have for Extras?
Half D1
Half D1 and Half Space
Steal Space

I like to keep menus but generally I'm not very concerned about their quality (the same for Extras), so I think these options will be nice.

No urgent :)

[jdobbs]

I'll have to think about that one... I'm not sure yet what the implications might be.

[Zeul]

I am not 100% sure on this, but by doing a 1/2 d1 you may find that if your menu has words that are highlighted (eg PLAY is shown in a different color meaning that a subpicture is directly overlayed) then if the main video frame has been altered then the sub will not overlay correctly. Just a thought....

[jdobbs]

Yeah... it sounds like an invitation to troubles, doesn't it?

[pg55555]

Yeah... it sounds like an invitation to troubles, doesn't it?

I do not want to trouble you in any way :)

Maybe just a Steal Space from Menus opcion?

So you can encode menus at a higher compression rate than the Main Picture, without getting into the Half D1 mess?

[jdobbs]

Honestly, from the testing I've done since implementing menu encoding I'm finding that in most instances there just isn't a lot of extra space to be found in menus. They often seem to be encoded at the bare minimum and even small reductions can make them look pretty bad.

I think the replacment of the motion menus with STILLs might be a pretty good option to look at.

[dragongodz]

i personally also think encoding menus to 1/2 D1 is asking for trouble. just my 2cents anyway.

from the testing I've done since implementing menu encoding I'm finding that in most instances there just isn't a lot of extra space to be found in menus
true for a lot of dvds but some can be rather huge and wasteful. a good little list of some huge menus is on menushrinks homepage
http://www.videohelp.com/~menushrink/

I think the replacment of the motion menus with STILLs might be a pretty good option to look at.
this would be especially good with the ability to select which menus to do it to. other language menus or pure padding, such as black footage, would be great candidates for turning to stills while still keeping the menus a person will use as motion menus.

[pg55555]

jdobbs

You know more and you are probably right.

But, you know, there are a lot of people (as myself) who cannot avoid to think we are smarter than the masters.

Currently I'm using Shrink to compress the menus to their maximum, as you expect, usually they look crap, but I HAVE MENUS :)

I think that using RB menu compression I can get better looking menus while at the same time recovering the same amount of space for the movie

I know, I know: you desafy to anyone that can find a quality diference from those extra 50 MB!! :rolleyes:

But look to the second paragraph of this post. After all there are people that are doing 10 passes encodes

[jdobbs]

Yep. It's for those people that I added menu encoding. I always keep my promises... although sometimes it may be a little later than planned.

I really wish I could have an epiphany as to how I could make the software recognize the time that is it best to encode, and the time it is best to just leave it alone...

The reason I worry so much about the 50MB thing is the return on investment tradeoff for the time taken in encoding as compared to the resultant quality improvement.

[dragongodz]

how I could make the software recognize the time that is it best to encode, and the time it is best to just leave it alone.
i dont think that would be easily possible. it would be much simpler to have a preview and user select what they wish encoded or turned to still and what left completely alone.

The reason I worry so much about the 50MB thing is the return on investment tradeoff for the time taken in encoding as compared to the resultant quality improvement.
have a look at the menushrink link i gave. with some dvds its way more than 50mb we are talking about saving.

[jptheripper]

hmm, i wonder (with the half d1 issue) if this will equally complicate the pal to ntsc conversion of menus (since it also requires a resize).. maybe zeul can comment as well?

[Zeul]

Pal to ntsc requires a resizing of each bitmap (which is overlayed for the button info) anyway so having to resize to a different value would not require any additional programming over and above normal conversion code (which is a lot) For menus and bov all of the button coords need to be reworked also, not forgetting possible audio processing aswell (depending on your conversion technique). A lot of work for jdobbs (i know from experience!!). The other major problem is in still menus - these also need to be re-encoded and re-encoded stills do NOT look good :(

[jptheripper]

wow.. all the more reason to keep the pal to ntsc request a movie only option

[spyhawk]

I agree that Half D1 on menus possibly invites trouble. This goes for BOV VTS too. But Half Space and Steal Space on menus would be a nice addition.

It is better not to re-encode stills as it is a waste of time, resources and not going to save much space at all. I notice that Shrink does transcode them though.

[blutach]

From a practical point of view, I reckon most people wanna watch the movie not the menus.

To have max quality in both, go for MenuShrink (http://jean.laroche.free.fr/MenuShrink/) (which will leave you with uncompressed I frames). And, of course, remove LUs with PgcEdit (http://www.videohelp.com/~r0lZ/pgcedit/index.html) first and if necessary, remove unreffed material in menus with VobBlanker (http://jsoto.posunplugged.com/vobblanker.htm).

Regards

[Zeul]

@blutach
perhaps, but this thread is a discussion on possible additional parameters that can be included within RB thereby removing the need for additional pre-processing.

[TomBrooklyn]

I reckon most people wanna watch the movie not the menus. To have max quality in both, ...remove LUs with PgcEdit (http://www.videohelp.com/~r0lZ/pgcedit/index.html) first and if necessary, remove unreffed material in menus with VobBlanker (http://jsoto.posunplugged.com/vobblanker.htm).
What are LUs?

[Zeul]

LU's are Language Units. Every DVD Menu will have at least 1 LU usually English. However, the DVD can have several. Basically each menu would be in a different language. Sometimes, when you insert a DVD you are asked what language to use. THESE DISCS DONOT HAVE DIFFERENT LUs. If a DVD with multiple LUs is inserted the DVD Player will select the correct language based on where the DVD Player was purchased (If the Langauge exists - otherwise it will select the 1st LU - normally English).

[Sharc]

jdobbs

Currently I'm using Shrink to compress the menus to their maximum, as you expect, usually they look crap, but I HAVE MENUS :)

I think that using RB menu compression I can get better looking menus while at the same time recovering the same amount of space for the movie

You need not necessarily revert to Shrink for menu compression: You may use the beta Viewer/Editor in DVD-RB to reduce the bitrates of the animated menus indivdually as you like, as long as they are in the VTS_xx_0.VOB. You may however have to include or change the VTSM_MIN_SIZE= parameter in the rebuilder.ini [Options] in order to include small files (<50MB) as well.

Note: Items included in the VIDEO_TS.VOB are still excluded from editing by the beta viewer/editor. You would still need vobblanker or similar then.