Menu weirdness with DOOM (R1) and 1.07.2

[rpboy]

Something weird with 1.07.2 and DOOM (R1) for me.

I just finished running it through DVD-RB. Pretty much did the entire disc, blanked a few extras and removed the foreign audio racks/subtitles. Selected to encode the menu too.

I have my IFOs associated with IfoEdit. So I double click on a VIDEO_TS.IFO file, load IfoEdit, then click DVD Play to preview the DVD. If I do that on the source DVD folder, the menu loads fine in its full 16:9 state.

When I do this with the output from DVD-RB, the menu loads in a 16:9 window, but its a 4:3 menu letterboxed in it. If I select any of the options on the menu to load another menu (scenes, audio, bonus features), those menus load then resize to fit the 16:9 window. If I click back to the main menu, the 4:3 menu returns.

None of the other DVDs I've done have done this when menu encoding was enabled. Why this one? Any ideas?

[jdobbs]

I'll pick up Doom tomorrow and give it a test run to see what's up. Did you perhaps accidentally blank any menu segments?

[rpboy]

Using Pgcedit, I blanked the VIDEO_TS.VOB since it was just the usual warnings. The main menu, I didn't touch at all.

Also using Pgcedit, I blanked some of the titles on the disc (previews, game play) and that was it.

I previewed it after that and the menus and disc played fine on the computer. In DVD-RB, I selected menu encoding, but didn't do anything with the Segment Editor. I just did a one-click mode on it (with HCEnc 0.17 and multiple encoders selected).

[rpboy]

And also, I burned the DVD-RB output to DVD and watched it on my widescreen tv. Menu appears fine there. Only appears to be a problem with viewing it on the computer. Not sure why that is.

Well, there is one other thing that is weird. In between the menus, there are little movie transitions. With the DVD-RB output burned to DVD, on my DVD player, it seems to pause momentarily at the end of the transition for a second. It's easy to tell because its supposed to be like this staticky, transmission signal distortion effect. On the DVD-RB output, it freezes with that displayed for a second, then displays the menu.

If I put the original DVD in and switch between menus, it does not freeze there, the transition plays, that flash plays at the end and goes away, then the menu is loaded. I can't tell if part of the transition is being cut off on the DVD-RB version, because right after the flash disappears on the original disc, the next menu is loaded. It's more like a pause between the end of the transition and the loading of the next menu.

[jdobbs]

Any chance you try a run without the editing and see what happens? This puts a lot of variables into the job -- and I don't know which might be the cause...

[Capsbackup]

I backed up this movie, full disc with menu encoding on, cce 2.67, with DVD-RB 1.07.2, R1 UR WS version. Used the default settings in DVD-RB like 2 pass, no avisynth filters, no change of matrices, etc.. and the backup came out what I consider real good, 4.32GB. All the menus look good, no problem with transitions on my Sony DVP NS 575P. I tried playing back in IFOEdit too, and all my menus are 16x9 and play back perfectly there too. No pauses during transitions in either IFOEdit or Power DVD XP. I tend to stay with the default options with DVD-RB since it has yet to fail me or make an unacceptable backup that way. I only change my number of passes and have played with Undot a few times but to my eyes can't seem to see a difference. So far menu encoding looks real good to me.

[jdobbs]

I haven't had any problems with menu encoding either... but I gotta tell you -- I don't think I'm much of a fan of it.

It seems that a lot of menus are recorded at the bare minimum bitrate needed to make them clear, and when you take a little away -- they just don't look very good. But I promised the menu reencoding capability, so there it is. I think in most cases, however, a backup looks better with menu encoding disabled. Just MHO.

[Zeul]

I think in most cases, however, a backup looks better with menu encoding disabled. Just MHO.

This i think depends on the number of languages the menu has been created in. If you have 5 or 6 languages the menu vob can be nearly 1 gig in size (I have one that takes nearly 2gig - spread over 2 vts sets). Perhaps the facility to remove LU would be beneficial - these unneeded cells are then just stilled with a blank and the LU not even created in the IFO.

[jdobbs]

Yeah. I saw one (Zathura) like that a couple of days ago. Almost 750MB worth of blank space in the VIDEO_TS.VOB.

[HKT3020_1]

I just backed up The Two Towers R1 NTSC and on my standalone there were no selectable buttons. So I just hit the next button the main menu of the disc and the button appeared. PowerDVD plays it back fine and I'm not keen on VLC's automatic menu jump, but VLC had no problem with it either. Despite that one little flaw, I'll be definitely keeping this. The backup looked fine by me considering it's a 3hr film on DVD5.;)

- Reduction Level for DVD-5: 60.3%
- Overall Bitrate : 3,792/3,034Kbs
- Space for Video : 4,102,724KB
- HIGH/LOW/TYPICAL Bitrates: 8,808/393/3,034 Kbs

[jdobbs]

I think I may know what caused that one. I found a bug related to the sequence_end_code that can sometimes (not often, luckily) happen on still menus. I've fixed it for v1.08 -- hopefully I will release that version in the next day or two. I've been testing it for a couple of days now...

[kbello]

@jdobbs: i got a dvd with menus in VIDEO_TS.VOB, but isn't processing... i remember in another threat u talk about this

[jdobbs]

Yes. I'm looking at the possibility of reencoding the VIDEO_TS... I'm not sure which way I'm going to go with it. I'm not really that pleased with menu encoding... it seems to suffer too much from small reductions.

[hallway]

I haven't had any problems with menu encoding either... but I gotta tell you -- I don't think I'm much of a fan of it.

It seems that a lot of menus are recorded at the bare minimum bitrate needed to make them clear, and when you take a little away -- they just don't look very good. I've done one job with menu encoding enabled but was expecting another step for what amount of "stealing" to apply to the menus, but there was nothing. How is that done ?? Like stealing from extras at 10%, 25%, and so on, what do you do to menus ?? Is it a hard-coded value (internally) ??

[SpazzHH]

I've done one job with menu encoding enabled but was expecting another step for what amount of "stealing" to apply to the menus, but there was nothing. How is that done ?? Like stealing from extras at 10%, 25%, and so on, what do you do to menus ?? Is it a hard-coded value (internally) ??
It's the same reduction % as the VTS.

[jdobbs]

Right. It works the same way as any other segment. So any savings in sectors gets spread across all segments.

[rpboy]

Any chance you try a run without the editing and see what happens? This puts a lot of variables into the job -- and I don't know which might be the cause...
I went ahead and re-ripped it to the hard drive. I didn't do any pre-processing at all. All my DVD-RB settings were the same.

Same result with the main menu problem (4:3 in at 16:9 window). Interestingly, it happens when I use IfoEdit to play the DVD. But if I just load the DVD-RB output folder into PowerDVD, it plays fine. So I'm not sure if there is something with how IfoEdit plays the DVD? Again, IfoEdit plays the source folder correctly though.

I can't tell if the odd flash at the end of the transition happens though. The output actually came out a little oversized, so I couldn't burn it to test. That transition issue didn't apear with PowerDVD or IfoEdit, but then again, it didnt' appear with the previous attempt in IfoEdit, so not sure if that means anything.

If you want me to try again after changing the size in the INI file and burn it, I will.

[rpboy]

jdobbs,

I just tried another movie (RENT, Disc 1, R1) and I am having the same problem. I am now using DVD-RB 1.08.1.

I took a look at the REBUILDER.INF file after it finished the Prepare phase and it is reporting Aspect_Ratio=2 for the menus, whereas it is Aspect_Ratio=3 for the movie. (So I am assuming that 2 is 4:3 and 3 is 16:9.) While encoding the menu, HC is reporting the aspect ratio as 4:3.

If I view the menu settings in IfoEdit or Pgcedit, the menu is listed as 16:9 (pan-scan). (Incidentally, DOOM is the same setting.)

Why is the menu's aspect ratio getting set to 4:3 when it is 16:9? If this is a something that is limited to my machine, what could cause that? Is there a setting that I could have inadvertently set?

[rpboy]

Oh, and a small cosmetic bug.

When running the prepare phase, as its looking at the menu, it show VTSM_01 in the Program Status field in the Status Log. But on the progress bar on the main window, it shows VTS_01. It's missing the M.

[jdobbs]

I just did that disc yesterday (Rent, Disc 1, NTSC, R1) -- and the menu on my copy is 16:9. Are you doing any other processing or editing? I'll look and see if I can find anything.

Just as a note, however, there are DVDs that are encoded as 4:3 -- but are, in fact, 16:9. The way they are actually played back is dictated by the IFO settings. I'll have to look to see if that's the case with this one. The examples I've seen in the past are DVDs authored by SpruceUP. Since that software doesn't accept 16:9, folks just encoded 16:9 sources as 4:3 and then changed the IFO settings to make it play correctly.

Does the result display correctly (in 16:9) when you play it?

[jdobbs]

Yep. This is one of those discs. I just checked the original menu VOB streams (all of them) and they are definitely flagged as 4:3.

That's ok. DVD Rebuilder is doing it correctly. It will play back exactly as it was authored.

[rpboy]

Yep. This is one of those discs. I just checked the original menu VOB streams (all of them) and they are definitely flagged as 4:3.

That's ok. DVD Rebuilder is doing it correctly. It will play back exactly as it was authored.
Okay, thanks for looking into that. Was just weird that IfoEdit plays the original source files as 16:9, but then plays the DVD-RB output as 4:3 in a 16:9 window. Seemed odd and worrying. :)

Thanks again!

[jdobbs]

I looked at it very closely... the original is the same. Just as a test, open VTS_01_0.VOB directly with MS Media Player. It plays back at 4:3.

[Zeul]

many many menus are 4:3 pan-scan. They should be encoded as 4:3 with the PS flag set. Later versions of cce support the ps flag, but many don't so processing of the video is required to add the flag. Generally speaking i have found that if the ifo says 16:9 automatic pan-scan it is actually encoded 4:3PS. very occasionally the ifo is incorrect so to be sure the first I frame should be checked to confirm the AR.

[XMEN3]

Yep. This is one of those discs. I just checked the original menu VOB streams (all of them) and they are definitely flagged as 4:3.

That's ok. DVD Rebuilder is doing it correctly. It will play back exactly as it was authored.
I've done many movies and animated menus with shenarist and, to play 16/9 on normal tv you have to do subs for 16/9 and subs for 4/3 but the video is the same 16/9.
Dvd-rb takes every original subs and stills from the original?

[jdobbs]

Yes. The subs are taken intact from the original. Something to remember is that the key factor is what happens in the PGC or LU. The subpicture stream status area must be adjusted based upon whether its 4:3, 4:3 pan & scan, wide, or letterbox.