About passes and setting.

[WhoAmI]

When I set DVD rebuilder passese. The other two setting with it should change too. Or what to get the best quality with 5 passes. this is what i'm talking about. if i set for 5 passes what setting should the other two will be.

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/3481/snap157pe.gif

I got this pictures from online. Also how came when i encode my encoding is not this this.
http://puschpull.org/screen/dvd_rebuilder/dvd_rebuilder_30.png

I can't find the one that mine is. Can anyone tell me why. And when i set as 5 passes. It encode just like 2 passes. How long and quality. PLz help.

[jdobbs]

Are you using CCE Basic? It will only do two passes. Normally, though, it would get disabled. What version of DVD-RB are you using?

The other settings don't really have any effect on the number of passes... as the same values are used for each pass. The defaults (which I recommend) are VBR_Bias set to 25 and Quality_Prec set to 16.

[WhoAmI]

Before i use RB 1.06.
but now i just change to 1.07
Cinema.Craft.Encoder.SP.v2.70.02.04

And set mind at CCE SP (v2.50)

Is that right.

Also what is all the best setting for DVd RB new version 1.07

[jdobbs]

Ok... I thought you were using the freeware version because of the skin...

The screenshot you've shown is definitely not CCE v2.50.... You need to change the setting under "SETTINGS/CCE SETTINGS" to CCE SP Trial or CCE SP (depending upon the version you're running). I'd guess it was the trial. Also make sure the setup dialog is pointing to the correct file.

[WhoAmI]

the picture is not mind. I got it from online. I don't know how to captures.

[jdobbs]

It doesn't matter. If you are using CCE SP v2.70.02.04 you shouldn't select CCE SP (2.50) -- you should select CCE SP Trial or possibly CCE SP.

[WhoAmI]

Oh. I see. Thanks. What about. The setting for passes. And quality Pro and VBR_bais. If i want to set as 5 passes, 6 passes, or 7 passes or more. What the the setting for quality pro and vbr_bais???

[jdobbs]

I personally think anything over 3 is overkill. Most sources are good with only 2 passes. Use the settings I recommended in my first post.

[WhoAmI]

Even with many passes should use that setting two. I mean even with 5 to 9 passese should use it too. I'm trying to see what are the setting for all paseses.

[writersblock29]

@WhoAmI

Hello,

When doing multiple passes with CCE, this is pretty much how CCE looks at your project:

1st pass is merely a collection of information regarding your stream; what bits whould be best used where, under the limitations of both the filesize allowed and the bitrate provided. Your bias and qaulity prec. settings are considered, and these settings are used throughout each additional pass to follow.

2nd pass is the actual creation of an MPEG stream. This is the pass that makes use of the information gathered during pass 1. Since the first pass collects quite a bit of information, there really aren't many instances where a 3rd pass will be needed (a possible exception would be a longer movie, or one with plenty of high-action scenes -- Braveheart would be a good example of a movie that has both considerations). A third pass might allow for a slight correction on CCE's behalf to put more bitrate into a scene than it did on the second pass... and take a little bitrate from where it really wasn't needed. Anything beyond three passes is, as Jdobbs noted, pretty much overkill; even the programers of CCE have stated that any improvement would be barely visible to the observer. It's just taking more time, is all.

As far as what bias setting or quality prec setting to use... I hate to say it, but it depends on your source. Jdobbs recommends a bias of 25 -- and you'll find that this is a good rule of thumb for most projects (since Rebuilder's a one-click program, it's pretty much forced into using "happy medium" settings for defaults). If you were to set the bias on, say, 0, you'd give your encoder the maximum amount of freedom in terms of what it can do with its bitrate... but the price would possibly be noisy artifacts in darker scenes, since most of your bitrate will automatically go to higher-demand areas. If you were to crank the bias to the largest number you could set it on, you'd wind up with a "constant bitrate" setting that might give you gorgeous dark scenes... but pixelate your high-action scenes. This is an over-simplified explaination... but hopefully gives you some idea as to what this setting's for. Regardless of what value you enter, the settings will apply to each pass CCE performs; a bias of 25 on pass one will still be a bias of 25 on pass 90.

My advice is to leave everything at defaults unless you run into a project that just seems to demand more. It may take a little tinkering to answer the "what's best" question... Myself, I'll usually set CCE to a bias of 10 and a quality prec of 16. Passes? No more than 2. 3, if it's a long movie, loaded disk, or a high-action flick. (Even then, a lot of the time it's hard to notice the difference between 2 or 3 passes.) But there's times when I'll find myself falling right back on defaults; they're good values, and figured that way for a reason! :D

Hope I didn't speak out of line, Jdobbs! ;)

[WhoAmI]

That is alot of explanation. But i kinda get what you mean. but still don't get what should I do. I have a music video. The lights are every where. and sometimes they dance really fast. The camera go really fast too. I do't care if it take up to 12 hours. I just want best quality. So i want to set as about 5 passes or more. But do'nt know if i leave they VBR_bais and quality pro the same but just move the passes up will it worth the time. I mean will it'll be better.

[writersblock29]

@WhoAmI

Okay, I think I know what you have in mind here. Concert-type footage? Pretty demanding stuff; lots of motion combined with light-to-dark, dark-to-light, footage. So we not only have the motion of the dancers... we also have light effects (which are detail, and the encoder will treat them roughly the same as motion since there will be differences from frame to frame).

There's another twist that may or may not mess with a project like this. PCM audio. Not all music videos have this, but many do -- and it'll eat a lot of space if it's present. But we'll cross that bridge when (or if... fingers crossed?) we get to it.

The first thing is to leave all encoder settings at default and run a prepare phase. What we want to see is what your overall bitrate will be (Rebuilder will list this at the end of the log file). If you've got 3K or above to work with, you most likely won't see a difference between your copy and the original leaving things at default. In this case, we're all set; just hit "Rebuild" and allow Rebuilder to encode -- and reconstruct -- your project.

Bitrates of around 2K aren't unworkable... but it will strongly depend on your original footage as to how good you can make it. If there's anything at all that you can live without, it's a good idea to shed it. Let's say, for example, you have a choice between Dobly 5.1 and PCM. You can get rid of the PCM and use the audio remapping feature to activate 5.1 in its place... thereby saving some space which will in turn be used for a higher video bitrate. Ditto if you have a choice between 5.1 and 2.0; if you don't have -- nor do you plan to get -- a 5.1 decoder, then ditching the 5.1 in favor of the 2.0 will save you video-encoding space without sacrificing your enjoyment of the backup. (If you do plan on getting a 5.1 decoder, then ditch the 2.0, since 5.1 will decode as stereo on a two-channel sound system.) If there's previews to other videos, you might want to use the Preview/Editor to blank them (again, save some space to max out the quality of what you want to keep).

Choices like these will make a far greater impact than simply running more passes, and with a little experimenting I think you'll like what you see.

[WhoAmI]

Thanks. It'll try it. But one think. I can't do a prepare. I mean all the button is unclickable except for the backup. What should i do wo make the parpare button work/?>

[erdoke]

Thanks. It'll try it. But one think. I can't do a prepare. I mean all the button is unclickable except for the backup. What should i do wo make the parpare button work/?>

Uncheck "One click mode" at "Mode" menu.

[WhoAmI]

Thanks. on mode. I set mind as CCE mode. IS that right????

Also how do we blank out audio and extra are parts we dot'n need????

[Morbo]

Look up VOB Blanker for that...;)

[writersblock29]

@WhoAmI

If you want to use CCE, then yes, setting Rebuilder into CCE mode is correct. Are you using the CCE trial, though? If it's the trial version, you'll wind up with a little "watermark" in the lower right-hand corner of your video that will display the CCE logo. If you have the fully-purchased version, then this logo will not be there. It's just one of the limitations to the trial version.

If you're only using the trial of CCE, then I'd recommend using HC instead (It would have come with both the update file as well as the installer). It'll take a little more time, but the overall quality's on par with CCE. If you choose to do this, then under Mode you'll make sure "HC Mode" is clicked.

Now... blanking audio isn't tough. When you load your ripped files into Rebuilder, you'll see a layout of what's on your disk; audio tracks; titlesets; subtitles; ect. Just double-click the audio and subs you don't want, and they'll recieve a little red "X" which will show you that they're gone. Now go to your "Options" tab and click "Audio Remapping." You can then tell Rebuilder to remap your existing streams so that you can play 5.1 in place of a removed 2.0, for example -- the remapping feature prevents you from having dead buttons in your menu that won't do anything (since you've removed their function).

Go to your "Mode" setting, and make sure "one click mode" is unchecked. This will enable your prepare button. Go ahead, at this point, and click that button. After Rebuilder analizes everything, you'll have the option to Preview/Edit your project. All you'll need to do is click once on a titleset, and it will start playing in the preview window. To get rid of something, double-click it until the [blanked] message appears. Changed your mind? Double click it until it's back to where you want it. That's it! Easy as pie.

[WhoAmI]

When i encode my video in the middle there are some words say "DVD cracked by a cracked version" why is that there???

[jdobbs]

Because it is cracked version, perhaps? Are you a registered user?

[therat]

Is that caused by VRD or the encoder? I hope it's VRD. This is an excellent program and people should support the author.

cheers

[HKT3020_1]

When i encode my video in the middle there are some words say "DVD cracked by a cracked version" why is that there???

Ouch! http://club.cdfreaks.com/images/smilies/4/policeman.gif
Support DVD-RB, it's worth the money.

http://www.jdobbs.com/

[WhoAmI]

Oh. So is the dvd rebuilder problem. Not CCE. I was wonder.

[jptheripper]

no, its a WhoAmI problem.. That message means you stole the software.

[jdobbs]

"Problem?" -- No. It's supposed to do that when you rip it off.

BTW... posting that question might be an indicator that you may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer...

[therat]

"Problem?" -- No. It's supposed to do that when you rip it off.


excellent work jdobbs. Keep it up.

cheers

[kRuZaDeR]

Is there a software that could analyze a DVD Movie and make suggestions as to the Quality, Prec, Number of passes etc. ?

I found "writersblock29" explanations very interesting and it certainly would be very helpful if there were software that could analyze the moive beforehand and maybe fix the settings in DVD-RB or maybe in CCE itself?

[jptheripper]

bascially? no. its all subjective

as for passes, cce's manual says dont bother with more than 4 i think.

its trial and error basically

[jdobbs]

Is there a software that could analyze a DVD Movie and make suggestions as to the Quality, Prec, Number of passes etc. ?

I found "writersblock29" explanations very interesting and it certainly would be very helpful if there were software that could analyze the moive beforehand and maybe fix the settings in DVD-RB or maybe in CCE itself?I think you're probably giving the settings of those parameters more credit than the impact they would return. In almost all cases the defaults are the most efficient settings. Only rarely would you want to change them -- and then you'd want to do so carefully so as not to make the output worse rather than better.

As for passes... as I've said before, 2 for most, 3 for very difficult sources. Anything more is overkill. Of course everyone has the right to "overkill" if they so desire... that's what freedom of thought is all about.

[jptheripper]

and dont forget, once you get beyond a point, quality from passes can decrease

so for example (totally made up numbers)

1 pass - 80%
2 pass - 95%
3 pass - 99%
4 pass - 98%
5 pass - 99%
6 pass - 99%
7 pass - 98%

etc..

basically once you get close it kinda wobbles, and can actually decrease. also notice you will never get to 100%, and after 2/3 passes, the quality difference is rediculuosly minimial.

all that being said, i still do 5 pass, b/c im an idiot

[Sir Didymus]

...all that being said, i still do 5 pass...

Hi JP, are you really actually doing 5 passes for every DVD backup ? Hey, friend, you definitely need a doctor... ;)

Well, apart any waggery, maybe I can add a comment, stating that in some metric tests (I know, I know, metric has nothing to do with visual quality..), the improvements in making more than three passes (i.e. preparation + 2 passes) is actually 0, or negative, or fluctuating around some steady state. On the other side recovering even a small amount (1% or 2%) in the allocated average bitrate - i.e. the target size of the encode - definitely gives measurable returns. But even into this last condition, that leads to fight for filling the DVD until the last byte, or performing long preprocessing sessions in order to gain few tents of mega bytes, the gained improvements are never visually relevant...

Cheers
SD

[jptheripper]

yes i do 5, and its on a p3 1ghz usually. that means my typical encode time is 28 hours.

now you know why i get annoyed at the "but changing this setting will up my speed by 15 minutes" type questions, if you cared.

[writersblock29]

@kRuZaDeR

While it's not percisely what you're asking for, you may want to check into the OPV setting for doing all you can to optimize the quality settings for your encodes. What OPV mode will do is analize your project, and try to determine the best Q setting to encode a given stream at, while trying to keep in mind the size limits imposed by your media. While getting spot-on target sizing is pretty close to impossible, you'll get a good idea of how good the quality of a project is going to be before invensting hours in a multipass encode... plus, the method's much faster than multipass, since the encode itself is handled over a single pass. Think of it as CCE qaulity with DVD Shrink speed.

For example, if you were to run a prepare stage using OPV, after that prepare stage is over, you'll get a readout of what Q is assigned for what titleset. A Q of 40 or below will yeild results that are -- most times -- hard to distinguish from the original (most progressive-sourced movies that I've done average anywhere from a Q of 12-25, and to my eyes often excell over the same project done as multipass). The lower the Q, the higher the quality.

A very excellent source of information on this method is, without a doubt, the postings of DDogg, as well as Tylo. Also do a search for "D2SRoba." While most of what you read will talk about how this approach pertains to DVD2SVCD, it's pretty easy to see what the goal is and how it pertains to the similiar setting availible in DVD Rebuilder.

You can also run a traditional multipass prepare stage within Rebuilder, then tweak it into OPV with RBOpt so that you may be able to squeeze a better Q out of titlesets that may need it. (For the time being, do not enable menu encoding, as it causes RBOpt to crash. A new version is being tested which will hopefully overcome this delema.)

I don't wish to say that it's definately better than multipass (I've seen a flame war or two sparked by such a statement), but I encourage you to play around with it and see if it's something you'll like. I'm fairly new to it myself -- most of my backups were done using multipass -- but the more I toy with OPV, the more good things I have to say about it. It may well be the happy medium you're looking for. :)