PGCEDIT and Layer Break

[GParent]

RE: PGCEDIT

For the purposes of backing a DVD Video where you are going to remove some content (e.g. Titles), is it advantageous to first remove the Layer Break before finalizing by using PGCEIT to calaculate a new Layer Break and to call IMGBURN?

[ron spencer]

can't hurt...is what i do

[eriksen76]

I removed it to begin with, but why not use PGCEDIT together with the existing layer break. Then PGCEDIT always recomments using the original layer break, and I simply press ok.

It works like a charm, and saves the time removing the layer break

/Eriksen76

[ron spencer]

it may change if he takes out stuff like he said he was going to do, so a new break likely needed.

[eriksen76]

In very rare ocations I think.

Normally the layer break is located in the main movie pgc. Personally I haven't yet had any situations where the layer break had changed due to extras stripping and such.

/Eriksen76

[ron spencer]

true but it can't hurt...only takes a sec

[GParent]

First, you have to decrypt. Some decrypters will strip layer break, some might not. DVD Decrypter does not in ISO read mode, but I don't know about file mode. DVD Fab Platinum, and maybe DVD Fab Decrypter remove the LB. DVD Shrink gets rid of it. If you use CLONEDVD2 for pruning the title tree, it will remove LB. Its a safe bet that pre-processing the Dual Layer video is going to strip LB. In fact, it would be nice to have a list of all the decrypters, IFO/VOB editors, and transcoders that strip LB. Well, I would like it. ;-)

That aside, thanks for confirming that having no LB might have some advantage when presenting a project to PGCEDIT for Dual Layer processing.

[setarip_old]

DVD Shrink gets rid of itActually, that's a "Yes/No" OPTION under "Edit>>"Preferences">>"Output Files" in DVD Shrink...

[ron spencer]

actually, since PGCEdit calculates a pad when making a layer break you are wise to get rid of the layer break anyway if you are ripping out some stuff....this will affect the pad

[GParent]

>>actually, since PGCEdit calculates a pad when making a layer break you are wise to get rid of the layer break anyway if you are ripping out some stuff....this will affect the pad<<

Ok, what is the "pad"?

Does PGCEDIT remove an old LB that might not be optimal or about multiple Layer Breaks. I would think it would remove any or all non applicable LBs, in favor of a newly generated one.

[ron spencer]

PGCEdit lets you choose various spots for a layer break...depending on where you choose it needs to pad some files...to ensure the first layer is full

see this old tutorial

http://www.videohelp.com/~r0lZ/pgcedit/third_party/blutach/dl_burning_with_pgcedit.htm

it is old as ImbBurn is used now....

[r0lZ]

PgcEdit tries to select by default the original layer break, if it is still present.
However, there are some (rare) cases where the original LB is not in the valid range any more (because mkisofs uses more sectors for his file system tables than a pressed DVD.)
If the user selects another cell, the original seamless flag is left as it is. If the original cell is present in the burn GUI, the user can set it (ie. clear the LB flag) manually with the "Seamless Cell" button. But, as I said, the original LB cell might be outside the valid range in some cases, and thus not visible in the GUI. It is therefore recommended to remove the layer break either at ripping time or manually with the PGC Editor before calling the burn function.

[Web Junkie]

Regarding Layer Break, in PGCEdit if the Cell flag has a layer break marked as 2: STC (SCR) Discontinuity, then is that a valid Layer Break flag?

The reason I ask is that I merged two DVD 5's into one DVD with a menu and found both DVD's had that info for the Layer Break info in many PGC cells, so I've reset every cell that had a Layer Break to 8: Seamless playback joint, does this now mean my DVD is now clear of any layer breaks? If those had been left in would it have affected burning the files to DL DVD?

Also, what does Cannot find the first VMG sector mean when trying to create an ISO? I have mkisofs, imgburn installed and the correct 'L0 Data Zone Capacity' from my blank DL disc, yet I get this message when the 'Setting Layer Break' mesage appears? Once that problem is solved how do I set a correct Layer Break?

Someone with greater knowledge may help guide me into not making an expensive coaster :o

[r0lZ]

Take care. The seamless joint flag is used to indicate that the cell must be played seamlessly with the previous one.
The cell used to position the layer break cannot be played seamlessly, and therefore the seamless joint flag must be cleared. This doesn't mean that a cell without the seamless joint flag is the layer break position. In fact, there is absolutely no way to know for sure where the layer break was in the original DVD. Furthermore, a cell could have the seamless joint flag clear for many good reasons. It is not recommended to set all seamless joints without knowing what you do.
Obviously, if there is a seamless discontinuity somewhere in the middle of the main movie, it's probably because the layer break was at this place, and you can set the seamless joint flag safely. But in, say, a game, or in slideshows, menus, etc., the seamless joint flag is used for various purposes and should not be modified, or your DVD may hang when playing the cell on a picky player.

"Cannot find the first VMG sector" is a critical error that should never happend. Either your IFOs are bad, or you have a problem with mkisofs ot even with your computer. BTW, which system do you use? I know there are several problems with the burn function under Win9X.
Anyway, please verify if the correct ID string is present in VIDEO_TS.IFO. Open it in IfoEdit, and click on VMGM_MAT. In the top line of the lower pane, you should see for the VMG identifier, the string "DVDVIDEO-VMG" (w/o the quotes.) If it's not the case, then your IFO file is not valid, and you cannot burn the DVD.

[Web Junkie]

I backed up the IFO/BUP files before editing them, I'll put them back now I understand the why 'Layer Break' was ticked in the cells! But I still get the VMG Sector error with them, created the merged DVD with DVDRemake PRO and added my own menu to it.

I never got as far as creating the ISO, the error was before Layer Break dialogue appearing! I checked the VIDEO_TS.IFO and there is a DVD-VIDEO-VMG entry:

[00000000] VMG Identifier DVDVIDEO-VMG
[0000000c] Last Sector of VMG 18505 [00004849]
[0000001c] Last Sector of VMGI 7 [00000007]
Specification version number v1.1
[00000022] VMG Category 0 [00]
[00000023] VMG Category, Regional Code mask 0 [00]
Region: 1 enabled.
Region: 2 enabled.
Region: 3 enabled.
Region: 4 enabled.
Region: 5 enabled.
Region: 6 enabled.
Region: 7 enabled.
Region: 8 enabled.
[00000024] VMG Category 0 [0000]
[00000026] VMG Number of Volumes 1 [0001]
[00000028] VMG This Volume 1 [0001]
[0000002a] Disc side 1 [01]
[0000003e] VMG Number of Title Sets 3 [0003]
[00000040] Provider ID DRMP 3.1.4
[00000060] VMG POS Code 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 [00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ]
[00000080] End byte of VMGI_MAT 1275 [000004fb]
[00000084] First Play PGC start byte (FP_PGC) 1024 [00000400]
[000000c0] Start sector of VMGM_VOBS 8 [00000008]
[000000c4] Start offset of VMG_PTT_SRPT 1 [00000001]
[000000c8] Start offset of VMGM_PGCI_UT 2 [00000002]
[000000cc] Start offset of VMG_PTL_MAIT 0 [00000000]
[000000d0] Start offset of VMG_VTS_ATRT 4 [00000004]
[000000d4] Start offset of VMG_TXTDT_MG 0 [00000000]
[000000d8] Start offset of VMGM_C_ADT 6 [00000006]
[000000dc] Start offset of VMGM_VOBU_ADMAP 7 [00000007]

[00000100] Video attributes of VMGM_VOBS 17152 [4300]
Video attribute details:
Video compression MPEG-2
TV system NTSC 525/60
Aspect ratio 4:3
Automatic Display Mode not specified
CC for Line21-1 (NTSC only) no data
CC for Line21-2 (NTSC only) no data
Bit Rate VBR
Source Resolution 720x480 (NTSC)
Letterboxed top&bottom cropped no
Mode Camera
[00000103] Number of audio streams in VMGM_VOBS 1 [01]
[00000104] Audio_1: VMGM audio attributes 0 193 0 0 0 0 0 0 [00 c1 00 00 00 00 00 00 ]
Audio attribute details:
Application mode unspecified
Language type not specified
Multichannel extension not present
Coding mode AC3
Channels 2
Sample Rate 48Kbps
Quantization/DRC DRC (dynamic range control)
Language Not Specified
Language extension [00]
Code extension (Audio Type) unspecified
[0000010c] Audio_2: VMGM audio attributes 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 [00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ]
[00000114] Audio_3: VMGM audio attributes 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 [00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ]
[0000011c] Audio_4: VMGM audio attributes 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 [00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ]
[00000124] Audio_5: VMGM audio attributes 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 [00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ]
[0000012c] Audio_6: VMGM audio attributes 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 [00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ]
[00000134] Audio_7: VMGM audio attributes 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 [00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ]
[0000013c] Audio_8: VMGM audio attributes 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 [00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ]
[00000155] Number of Sub-picture streams in VMGM 1 [01]
[00000156] Sub-pic_1: VMGM Sub-picture stream attributes 0 0 0 0 0 0 [00 00 00 00 00 00 ]


The DVD's are retail DVD 5, so I know now that the Layer Break info is not connected to a DL Layer Break, but now I've merged them and made my own menu, I get this VMG Sector error and not sure how to fix it. I followed goonix's guide (Part 2 section) to make my own menu if that helps: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=99306

[r0lZ]

Could you send me your IFOs? pgcedit at tiscali dot be.
And which OS are you using? Windows XP?

[Web Junkie]

XP yes!

Files sent!

[Web Junkie]

Been trying most of the day to fix this problem but I just can't do it?

I tried putting my DVD files through CloneDVD, no transcoding, just to see if it would fix the VMG Error when it created the IFO's, it didn't :(

Created a new VMG menu in PGCEdit and imported the existing menu from VTS_03_0.VOB and deleted the old menu, so now my menu is in VIDEO_TS.VOB. Added some dummy PGC's for navigation to the VTSM1 and VTSM2 sections as per original menu, saved all changes and the DVD works as it should, but I STILL get a VMG error when trying to burn/set layer break?

Removed VTSM3 with ifoedit due to moving the menu that was there to the VMG section, saved IFO, same problem?

If I can't fix this problem the whole project will end up in the recycle bin, 2 days wasted :(

[r0lZ]

3rd time I ask the same question: which OS do you use?

[Web Junkie]

Sorry r0lZ, I did say in post #17, but I use Windows XP SP2.

I don't mean to be rude to you, it's just that I'm getting a bit frustrated as I've overcome quite a few problems to get this far and now it's all falling apart in what should be the simplest part, burning the DVD.

Apologies r0lZ, I'll calm down now.

[Web Junkie]

:( r0lZ, you are NOT going to believe this :(

I feel SO STUPID!!

Guess who forgot to copy the cygwin1.dll into the same directory as mkisofs.exe?

That was the problem all along, not the IFO! I just don't know how I missed that?

Maybe a check can be added to PGCEdit to make sure BOTH files are present before creating the ISO, that way idiots like me won't get caught out :o

Sorry r0lZ.

[r0lZ]

He, Web Junkie! That's great. I was just reading again this thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=105378) on the same subject when I saw your post. I prefer that! Thanks for the info.

[Web Junkie]

SUCCESS!

Layer Break set just before the first VTSM2 entry on second layer, ISO created OK, Disc burned OK with IMGBURN, played fine in PowerDVD. I can file copy all data off the DVD in both my DVD-ROM drive and my NEC 3500 writer.

It also plays fine in my el cheapo standalone DVD player :)

The disc recorded to was a Traxdata +R DL (RICOHJPN-D01) and previously 2 films burned to these discs have had errors on the layer break when burned with DVD Decrypter 3.5.4.0. They produced CRC errors when filecopying data from them on the layer break but played fine on my standalone. I think this may have been due to the layer break being inside a VOB file rather than between files on the disc and DVD Decrypter not handling the layer break correctly.

This first disc edited in PGCEdit and burned with IMGBURN seems to have solved the layer break issues on my PC drives, setting the layer break seems to be important for this media. One thing I have found out via other forums is these discs are produced by the 'Inverse Stack' process, rather than 2P process like Verbatim. I have no idea why this makes a difference but it seems 'Inverse Stack' caused problems for me, even using official f/w 2.1A in my NEC 3500, but not now!

I still have another two DVD 5's to convert to DL, this time it should be so much easier as now know what to expect and what to do, hopefully this disc will also burn without layer break issues on my PC, I'll let you know when I've burned it :)

Thanks again!

[r0lZ]

SUCCESS!

This first disc edited in PGCEdit and burned with IMGBURN seems to have solved the layer break issues on my PC drives, setting the layer break seems to be important for this media. One thing I have found out via other forums is these discs are produced by the 'Inverse Stack' process, rather than 2P process like Verbatim. I have no idea why this makes a difference but it seems 'Inverse Stack' caused problems for me, even using official f/w 2.1A in my NEC 3500, but not now!

Thanks again!:)

I've never heard of this 'Inverse Stack' process. Do you remember in which thread/forum you saw the info?

[bigotti5]

http://www.drschenk.com/news_image/news1.pdf

[Web Junkie]

I started a thread in the NEC Burner section on CDFreaks about DL Discs for my burner, it was pointed out there also:

http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?t=164790

So you see the trouble Inverse Stack discs caused me in that thread, one of the discs has to be read using DVD Decrypter as it has to re-read the data many times before it gets the data from the layer break.

But with setting the layer break in PGCEdit and burning with IMGBURN, I don't seem to have any trouble reading past the layer break in CDSpeed. The read speed does drop in my DVD-ROM though at the layer break but not in my NEC 3500 and it doesn't error out like before. So for burning movies on DL discs, PGCEdit and IMGBURN are the tools for me :)

One thought did cross my mind, what about setting the Layer Break on a DATA disc, rather than a movie? Would creating an ISO using a program like UltraISO and then loadfing it into IMGBURN ask for a layer break when burning? If so, then DATA discs shouldn't pose a problem either.

[r0lZ]

Thanks for the links, bigotti5 and Web Junkie.

I can't help on the data disc subject. But the position of the layer break is probably less important, since it can be in the middle of a file.
You should probably create an ISO with any tool, and then examine the files starting sectors with IsoBuster to decide where to put the LB, and use a burning app that let you specify the LB position.

Note that PgcEdit supports mixed DVD-Video/DVD-ROM contents, but I have never tried this on a DL DVD. And I am almost sure you will have some problems if more than a complete layer is filled with DVD-ROM files.

[Web Junkie]

I don't intend to experiment with DVD-VIDEO and DVD-ROM data r0lZ, DL discs are too expensive to play with :scared:

The ideal scenario is the burning app stops files being burned across the layer break where possible, afterall, the layer break is just a marker in a sector to tell the drive to read the next layer isn't it? This would be a problem for data discs where large files are present and there is simply no space to put a layer break between two files.

This is a problem for another day though, I don't have any DATA disc to burn to a DL disc yet so it should be fun when I do :) I'm just happy I can now burn movies to DL without a problem now :thanks:

[ron spencer]

no it isn' that simple....the first layer (layer 0) must be larger than the second layer (layer 1), so stopping anywhere is not adviseble, unless you pad layer 0

[Web Junkie]

This is true, that's why my logic made me compile my DVD with the larger disc files on layer 0 and the smaller discs files on layer 1, then used the layer break to position it so the layer change happened before disc 2 was burned on layer 1, or that's how I believe it worked out! I may have had a combination of file sizes that allowed this to happen.

I had my VOB/IFO files on my HD so the files are burned in order I believe, VIDEO_TS files then VTS_01 files and lastly VTS_02 in my compilation, so it was easy to set the layer break between VTS_01 and VTS_02. As you stated, it's not always that simple. If a file falls across the layer break that is so large that the layer break is always inside this file, then that could cause a problem reading the file back.

I may be totally wrong, but looking in isobuster the layer break sector was at the start of file, not in the middle of it.

[BECK38]

Guess who forgot to copy the cygwin1.dll into the same directory as mkisofs.exe?

That was the problem all along, not the IFO! I just don't know how I missed that?


That 'Cannot Find...' error has been with me since Day 1 of trying the PGCEdit DL method, I looked up the mkisofs directory and that .dll was there since I had installed it. So, no help. Still get the error message, have had to rely on the 'auto' feature of the burn pgm to 'select' the place to put the break in. Works 99% of the time, but for some reason it has problems with certain episodic disks. On 'movies', the most I've ever seen is a slight (.1sec) pause, no worse than the original; usually it is totally un-noticable.

I've been beating this horse for quite a while, don't think I'll find the problem with PGCEdit, but every once in a while I come back and see if anyone else has had the same prob. The one (1) commercial pgm with full layerbreak settings is bloody $$$, so I keept looking for the 'fix'.

[r0lZ]

BECK38, are you also using Win XP?
Seems there are serious problems with the burn function under Win 9X.

[BECK38]

BECK38, are you also using Win XP?
Seems there are serious problems with the burn function under Win 9X.

WinXP is a DEAD operating system; I use W2K exclusively, esp. after 'rolling back' several major corporations desktops out of XP and to W2K the last few years. Then I retired!

Looking at a couple of possible 'fixes', but nothing has worked so far. Would sure like to 'get it working' properly....!

[r0lZ]

WinXP is a DEAD operating system; I use W2K exclusively, esp. after 'rolling back' several major corporations desktops out of XP and to W2K the last few years. Then I retired!Hum, I'm not sure you're right, but it doesn't matter. You don't use Win9X, and that's the important thing.

Have you tried the burn function on several computers running Win2K?

Looking at a couple of possible 'fixes', but nothing has worked so far. Would sure like to 'get it working' properly....!Are you sure mkisofs is properly configured in the burn setup dialog? Can you see the mkisofs version string when you click on the Check Version button?

[r0lZ]

Also, could you try the version of mkisofs compiled with MinGW, and referenced by Frank in this thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=109062)? Maybe it will work better.

Note that this build requires Win 2000 or later. It doesn't work at all under Win9X.

[BECK38]

I decided to go ahead and remove/delete all the particular pgms and re-install, making sure that .dll's and such (in the install/latest versions) were put into the proper root directories (proper verification/control of being something which all the windows OS's have lacked from the get go).

Put it all back together and, it worked! The couple of dvd9's which I had marked as having layer break playability problems on early players (in my case, a first generation progressive-scan Pioneer), are showing up as having only one potential LB point; so no 'help' there, but it showed were/why the problem occurred. Note that in newer players (a top-line Sony Progressive is my newest, about 4 years 'younger', less than a year old), it sails right through the LB point whithout any (and I mean ANY) pause or glitch or whatever.

So, I got an extra 'layer' (pun intended!) of confidence, although I've burned over 50 DL disks so far, with 100% perfect playability (on my Sony) using Verbatim +DL disks (6X types burned at 2.5X). I got my first batch of 8X disks just today by mailorder, $20/10pack, so will be trying them out at a bit faster burn speed in a few days.

I have a couple other players, cheapies, that when the disks are of lower quality (like Riteck +DL's), have massive probs, so I came to the conclusion quite awhile ago to keep with Verbatim's (at least for 'real'). Still have a half pack of the Riteck's left I'll 'experiment' with in the next week or so, trying to burn at 1X (they are 2.5X, or so the top printing and info says), and see if the 'yeild' improves (been about 1 good out of 5 so far, pretty bad).

Well, I guess I'm as good to go as I can get now, really lucky I found this 'thread' and got a great response! Not as bad as the 'BIG3' setups from 2-3 years ago (that was a real bear!) but I had almost given up on getting things to work 'as advertised' on this. But persistence did win out! THANKS!!

[r0lZ]

Glad to read your problem is solved. Still wondering why it occured!

Verbatim DL media are known to be reliable, but seems that the Philips DL are good, too.

Good luck with your faster burns.