Are HiDef discs DOA?

[charleski]

Personally, I think Hollywood is trying to kill the goose, just as they tried with VHS until they saw the eggs.

[Mug Funky]

i didn't vote just yet. i have no idea :)

my instinct says blu-ray will win, but with every month it's losing momentum (as is HD-DVD), and from the look of things when it arrives it'll be a massive anti-climax (rather like SACD, except HD-DVD is demonstrably better than DVD, wheras SACD is a big ball of wank that pleases dumb audiophiles, sony, and semiconductor manufacturers, but nobody else).

we've never been in a situation before where broadcast TV got there before the movie industry. people already have high definition, and for the most part it's pretty good. also, people have unrestricted access to it (if they're lucky enough to not have a broadcast flag restriction). so HD-DVD will only mean no ad breaks (which can be edited easier than ever now) and no station watermarks (which often only turn up on the SD channels), oh, and a slightly higher bitrate which most wont notice on a good HD channel.

i think it'll take a while for HDTV to gain momentum - at the moment it's simply unnecessary, and will make almost no difference to the experience of "home theatre", because the reality is in a home situation the setup is less than ideal - there's distractions, noise, maybe kids, usually the sound isn't set up properly and has really poor speakers, the TV is usually far below the resolution of the discs and has poor contrast or dynamic range.. the list goes on. what i'm getting at is the experience will be no better than DVD except for a small percentage of the population who care enough and don't have enough of a life to be doing other things.

but HD formats will take over eventually, in whatever form they present themselves. not because it needs to, but because the industry is moving in that direction.

[Sirber]

duh! I wanted to vote for the last one :(

[charleski]

the reality is in a home situation the setup is less than ideal - there's distractions, noise, maybe kids, usually the sound isn't set up properly and has really poor speakers, the TV is usually far below the resolution of the discs and has poor contrast or dynamic range.. the list goes on. what i'm getting at is the experience will be no better than DVD except for a small percentage of the population

Very true MugFunky, which is why I think option 3 will ultimately be the real killer (though I voted option 5 myself :) ).

If Hollywood doesn't get its head out of its ass, HiDef disc formats will just be another Laserdisc niche system - LD was around for almost as long as VHS, but never took-off because of the cost.

[Revgen]

Both will win because unlike VHS and Beta, electronics manufacturers can and most likely will ship units that support both formats, just like the DVD-R/DVD+R recording drives that are being sold now.

[foxyshadis]

Doom9 might be right, that the formats will limp along for 5-10 years as mostly high-end data storage formats, until some further next-gen technology (flash memory-like cubes for MPEG-11?) comes along that's even simpler, smaller, and more impervious, while (say) MPEG-4 on DVD or network-hosted on-demand video comes to dominate HD.

I don't know what will happen, but this year is going to map out the direction they take, for sure.

[Shinigami-Sama]

theres already soild state drives out there, so by the time mpeg-11 comes out they could fill the 2TB drive with so much DRM while the 32943P film takes up 3megs of space with 23423.3 channel audio taking 3KB
so yeah

I think the industy is going to fuck themselves over with copy protection

[Mug Funky]

IIRC, laserdisc was actually around before VHS or Beta... wasn't it mid '70s?

i wasn't around at the time though.

[Inventive Software]

Yup, mid 70s. Designed as an alternative to fragile records and quality-losing cassettes. Didn't take off until 1982 of course, when we know it now as the "Compact Disc".

I personally think that HD-DVD will win, but I don't know whether the quality will be retained sufficiently to fit within 15 GB, bearing in mind they usually fit a few extras on there as well.

I'd like to see what happens with HVD. It's rumoured to have around 300 GB capacity. Anybody for lossless Hi-Def?

[foxyshadis]

Didn't take off until 1982 of course, when we know it now as the "Compact Disc".
LD was hugely popular straight from introduction in Japan and the rest of asia, and only died out with the introduction of DVD. Up until a few years ago most movies were still routinely released on LD, like VHS here. Europe took about midway between the crappy US and wild asian reception, though I don't know the specifics.

[Dayvon]

My take is I hope for HD-DVD, but I'm afraid Blu-Ray will go far.

HD-DVD it seems will be less DRM-ridden than the Blu-Ray alternative. This to me is a big deal. Secondly, cheapness is good. Blu-ray discs/drives will not come cheap. 15 GB's with AVC and AAC 5.1 is ridiculously high quality so we shouldn't need to worry. HD-DVD is possible to be quad-layered I believe for a total of 45+GB. The HD-DVD-R's will be 15GB and 30GB, but I think the HD-DVD-RW's are going to be 20GB and 40GB. So really, its pretty good on the size side.

Blu-ray will probably win because of one thing. Playstation 3. It will have a large user base (assuming the price is about what PS2 was) and that will draw studios. If Xbox360 starts taking off a bit more, and Nintendo's Revolution hits fairly well in the mainstream/toy price bracket, then PS3 might not do well (especially if it will cost $500 like its been alleged to be). That will be the deciding factor with the next gen formats. Both have the studios backing them up, so neither is at a distinct advantage. Blu-ray does have advantage with it's killer appliance.

[deuce2]

I voted for HD-DVD mostly because I'm still biased against Sony for their rootkit debacle. Revgen has a point about both systems being available just like the DVD -+R formats are today (assuming the technologies aren't so different).

[Doobie]

HD-DVD will win because it's cheaper? Any price advantage will be slim.

Blu-Ray will win because of the PS3? Tens of millions of players in the market over the next several years.

Both will lose, it's a gimmick? Is HDTV a gimmick?

Both will lose to downloads? Not for a couple of decades.

Both will lose because of heavy-handed DRM? I wish.

The Winner: Blu-Ray

[zilog jones]

IIRC, laserdisc was actually around before VHS or Beta... wasn't it mid '70s?
From what I know, Betamax came out in 1975, VHS in 1976 and LaserDisc in 1977 or 1978 (though Pioneer didn't start making LD players till 1981).

Personally I can't see any of the HD formats taking off any time soon - I still don't know a single person with an HD set (here in Ireland we're still waiting for standard-def DVB-T, never mind any HD stuff!). The only actual HDTV I've seen is in the local Panasonic shop were they were showing some demo video off some HDD recorder - our local Sony Centre tried showing HD1 but either the signal was so crappy or they set it up arseways so it didn't actually look HD at all.

Blu-ray seems to be the possible winner at the moment (it *appears* to have the most backing from the movie industry), and if the PS3 does use them it will make a big difference - the PS2 certainly did wonders for the DVD market in Europe anyway.

But as Doom9 and foxyshadis said I do dread that some newer, even better (probably solid state) format comes out in the next few years. Technology's just going too fast for the average consumer these days...

[Dayvon]

I was re-thinking this a bit, and I wouldn't be surprised if both formats kind of took off, but in seperate market segments.

I could easily see HD-DVD's being used heavily in PC's. I mean NEC and Toshiba are both more computer manufacturers than they are consumer standalone-players. I would imagine that HTPC users and the general computing community will probably jump on the HD-DVD band wagon fairly quickly as it has larger storage, and should be very affordable soon.

Blu-Ray is great for the consumer market though. And despite doobie's best efforts to tell you otherwise, the PS3 having Bluray IS a big deal. And that will probably give Bluray wings.

[Doom9]

well.. I'm currently looking at a 1080p broadcast of Gladiator on a 30" (2560x1600) and 23" (1920x1080) screen and it's pretty darned amazing.

the PS2 certainly did wonders for the DVD market in Europe anyway. Huh? DVD was doing fine without PS2. In fact, give any non gamer a PS2 as DVD player and they go back to their VHS deck because they can't handle the controls (I wanted to throw the darned thing out of a window when I first had the pleasure).

Considering announced prices for Blu-ray players, if Sony is really going to put a Blu-ray drive into the PS3, their shareholders are going to go nuts.. MS is already flushing money down the toilet big time, but that would beat anything else. And I have to stop now because my dislike of anything that's not a PC is creeping up big time. The day I got my first PC was the day I grew out of consoles.. I've never looked back at those toys and my PC kicks them all till kingdom come. If you ever want to suffer, play a game that's available on PC and a console on both (make sure it's a PC with a decent GFX card).. the console will make your eyes hurt.

[zilog jones]

When the PS2 came out in Europe in late 2000 it was one of the cheapest DVD players around, and it was many people's first DVD player (including mine, and I didn't get one till 2002!) - probably worldwide more than just Europe actually - I remember hearing about in Japan when it first came out actual game sales were pretty low as a lot of people where just using them to watch videos. I know a lot of people whose only DVD player still is their PS2, or they haven't got a real player until the last couple of years or so.

I know it's by no means the best player around, and actually using it for playing DVD video is a painful experience, but can you name anything else that can play DVDs and has sold over 100 million units?

Also, my opinion on PC versus console games: Different games are suited to different formats, and it really depends what you like. There's a lot of genres of games only available on consoles (either that or they have crappy PC ports), like decent racing sims and arcade-y games. However, consoles are absolutely useless for FPSs (sorry, I hates Halo) and most types of strategy games - that's what PCs are for. I had my 386 before I got any console, and I was a pretty late-comer not getting a Mega Drive till 1995, but there's always been a time and place for both.

I don't know what sort of point you were trying to make saying how PC games have better graphics than those consoles - it's been like that ever since SVGA graphics cards have been around, but there's so much more to games than how good they look!

[Doom9]

like decent racing simsThere's plenty of those. NFS on PC beats any console so hard that if they could scream, console owners couldn't sleep anymore. It looks so god awful on any console.. there are just no words for it. And since it plays just the same (once you get used to the controler).. By the time the PS2 came out, there were plenty of cheaper alternatives.. I still remember the SMC player we got with our 5.1 setup (way before the PS2).. really cheap thing, but with built-in NTSC -> PAL conversion and it didn't give a hoot about PUOs.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Well, even if there was "only one" high-def DVD format for us "poor saps" to choose from, I could not see it ever taking off as fast as std-def DVD did (which is what the media production companies are banking on). Because in order to get the most out of high-def DVD, we will all have to go out and buy new high-def capable HDMI+HDCP display devices too!

I for one don't feel like spending a small fortune on a new Blu-ray player and/or a new HD-DVD player, a new high-def capable display and a load more new high-def disc's.

My first std-def "PAL" DVD player cost me around £400 in 1998/9 and was quickly superseded by more advanced and cheaper models (it was eventually confined to the dust bin when "progressive" scan PAL players arrived). So I'll be waiting until the HD disc format war has been resolved or until "budget" priced players arrive ;)


Cheers

[zilog jones]

There's plenty of those. NFS on PC beats any console so hard that if they could scream, console owners couldn't sleep anymore. It looks so god awful on any console.. there are just no words for it. And since it plays just the same (once you get used to the controler)..
NFS is not to everyone's tastes, and of course it's going to look bad in comparison on a console - your PC isn't using 7-year-old technology like the PS2! What's your point?

I was trying to say there's a much larger variety of racing games on consoles, like Gran Turismo 4, the WRC games, Colin McRae Rally, Toca, etc. - I know some have had PC ports, but they're usually not the best conversions, and Codemasters use StarForce so they can get bent :angry:

[Chainmax]

Doom9: you are wrong. In many cases, console to PC ports either suck big time (HALO, NFSHP2, Final Fantasy VII or VIII) or just let you use higher resolutions which look crappy because the textures aren't upgraded.
Besides, NFS is just one franchise, have you ever seen something similar to Gran Turismo 4, Forza Motorsport, F-Zero on PC? What about God of War, Ninja Gaiden Black, Dragon Warrior VIII, Tales of Symphonia, Mario Party, Shenmue, Soul Calibur, Tekken 5, Shinobi, Zelda, Steel Battalion, Metroid Prime, Contra Shattered Soldier, Castlevania, Ikaruga, Einhander and many more?
The fact is that the PC has barely anything worthwhile regarding the great amount of quality racing games, Japanese RPGs, Platformers, fighters, shoot'em'ups and quirky games available on consoles. I totally agree with zilog jones: PCs are the best platform for FPS, strategy games and graphic adventures. Consoles take the cake in pretty much everything else.

P.S: Also, I'd bet the average joe doesn't have a computer able to run a game at 1280x720 as smoothly as the XBOX360 (and probably PS3 too) does.

P.S 2:WikiPedia LaserDisc entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laserdisc).

[Doom9]

What's your point? You can compare it with the Xbox 360.. that's hardware that's even more recent than my PC.. still it doesn't stand a chance.. Actually my point is consoles are for kids.. there I said it. It takes a certain amount of know-how that no kindergarden kid has to run and especially build a PC. I had a gameboy too, a long time ago, and greatly enjoyed it, but somehow I just grew out of it. So that a kids toy could have a major influence on something that important just rubs me the wrong way.
What about God of War, Ninja Gaiden Black, Dragon Warrior VIII, Tales of Symphonia, Mario Party, Shenmue, Soul Calibur, Tekken 5, Shinobi, Zelda, Steel Battalion, Metroid Prime, Contra Shattered Soldier, Castlevania, Ikaruga, Einhander and many more?All things I'd never go near? I guess I'm just made for the PC because the few games I still have time for playing, all are available (and lightyears better) on PCs. And looking at all the race games you listed on a console.. they can be as good as they want.. they look like shit. And there's that saying, it's the first impression that counts.

[Chainmax]

So the demographic group of a game machine is defined by how difficult the hardware is to setup and use rather than by the games available for it? :rolleyes:

Also, you wouldn't go near any of the titles I mentioned, most of which are milestones in their genres and have nothing even remotely approaching their quality on a PC. How convenient...:rolleyes:.

And of course, console games all look like shit. Give me a break, have you ever seen any PC game with as good art direction as Zelda Wind Waker, God of War, Shadow of the Colossus, Oddworld Stranger's Wrath, Project Gotham Racing 3? Never mind though: games are only fun if they have überhigh resolution graphics and textures :rolleyes:.

[zilog jones]

Actually my point is consoles are for kids..
That's a poorly constructed generalisation if I ever heard one. That's as bad as saying "anime is for kids" or - I dunno - "ballet's for girls". I'm sure if you look at the demographics you'll find more people over 18 own consoles than under, and more would definately own more than one console. And I've had a PC since I was 6, and I was definately able to use DOS and Windows (3.0!) on my own by the time I was 7. Nobody has to build or set up a PC themselves just to play games on it ^_^

they can be as good as they want.. they look like shit. And there's that saying, it's the first impression that counts.
Looking at the graphics of a game is a very close-minded first impression. That's like judging a movie by the quality of the film stock and the video trnasfer, and nothing else - see how silly that sounds?

[mg262]

HD-DVD it seems will be less DRM-ridden than the Blu-Ray alternativeIf HD-DVD ends up being easier to decrypt than Blu-Ray, and the format war isn't completely over, then perhaps the studios will switch to supporting Blu-Ray only?

[Doobie]

Well, even if there was "only one" high-def DVD format for us "poor saps" to choose from, I could not see it ever taking off as fast as std-def DVD did (which is what the media production companies are banking on). Because in order to get the most out of high-def DVD, we will all have to go out and buy new high-def capable HDMI+HDCP display devices too!

Yop, just look at the number of STD TVs when DVDs were released vs. the number of HDTVs w/HDCP that people have now. But, as the price premium of high-def DVD shrinks and the number of homes with HDCP HDTVs grow, it's a no brainer what people will be buying.

[Doom9]

That's as bad as saying "anime is for kids" And many are.. those "milestones" in the genre, ghibli (or gibli) style.. the storyline is definitely geared towards a young audience. Yes there are titles that are more geared towards a mature audience, but nothing can change the fact that animated content is what you start a TV career with.. and you can't quite shake that no matter how hard you try. There are things I still like to watch today meant for kids, and the latest comic is just as interesting as it ever was, but then again, there's the rumor that guy's never really grow up ;)
Looking at the graphics of a game is a very close-minded first impression.Be very careful where you thread from here and remind yourself of whom it is that you're talking to. If there's one rule that applies on every board it's to never piss of the admin. I've gotten into a good headbanging with a couple admins myself.. but being one myself I know very well when to stop.
have you ever seen any PC game with as good art direction as Art direction? How about if the whole genre just doesn't make any sense to you? if you don't like FPS games, no game is likely to change your mind about that genre either.

If HD-DVD ends up being easier to decrypt than Blu-Ray, and the format war isn't completely over, then perhaps the studios will switch to supporting Blu-Ray only?One thing to keep in mind is DIVX. It actually had better studio support than DVD as well.. but it failed. They're trying again now with just as DRM laden crap, but more studio and hardware support. But being studio initiated DRM it's no wonder that more studios favor the more restricted format.. they did so before and they will do again. So as a consumer, you should give that the finger by buying into less restricted formats. HD DVD is bad, Blu-ray is worse.

[Chainmax]

Just because a kid can watch anime and be entertained by it doesn't mean that he will understand the content. Mos of the films you mention have deep stories that often carry underlying messages and morals that will probably fly right over the head of most kids: you can't really compare stuff like Grave of the Fireflies (in my opinion a movie in the same league as Life Is Beautiful), to stuff like Disney's cartoon shorts that, while awesome in their own right, are just there to entertain with no extra value whatsoever. Besides, there are many other studios that make excellent, deep stories as well: have you ever seen Saikano, as a small example of the great variety that anime holds? And what is "animated content is what you start a TV career with" supposed to mean? Who has "started their career" with animated content (again, you lump all animated content into a sack which is an awfully shortsighted claim) never to return to it again?
After that you link to comics which opens a whole different can or woms I won't delve into except for saying there's more to comics than green lantern and superman. Your final statement in that part of your reply quotes the rumors of never growing up; those rumors come from people that have been sadly misled by mainstream animes like DragonBall and Naruto which are inexplicably the most popular on the genre and skew most people's view into thinking that anime is all about ridiculous battles and potty humour.

Sure, you can go ahead and warn me that I'm talking to the creator of the forum like you did to zilog jones for saying that looking at a game's graphics is a close-minded first impression (he didn't talk directly about you, and even if he did do you feel that telling someone close-minded qualifies as an insult?), never mind netiquette and treating others with respect (i.é: not threatening them with your power because the disagree with you and call it like they see it) which are part of the rules you yourself made mandatory in this forum. Abuse of authority doesn't make your points more valid. In fact, it's the other way around.

About the third part of your reply, that was meant as a rebuttal to the part where you said that console graphics suck. Personal preference about a genre's general mechanics don't apply.

[Wilbert]

@zilog jones, doom9 and Chainmax. Guys please. I see this discussion is heated up very much the last dozen of posts. I advice you to buy some beers for each other, let it go and return to the original topic.

[mg262]

One thing to keep in mind is DIVX. It actually had better studio support than DVD as well.. but it failed.Ah, that's interesting... I'd forgotten about that. Actually, I've never seen a DIVX disk or heard about it outside these forums...

and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIVX explains why; I'll quote a little for other non-US readers:
DIVX (Digital Video Express) was an attempt by Circuit City and the entertainment law firm Ziffren, Brittenham, Branca and Fischer to create an alternative to video rental in the United States.

DIVX was a rental format variation on the DVD player in which a customer would buy a DIVX disc (similar to a DVD) at a low cost, which would be able to be freely viewed up to 48 hours from its initial viewing. After this period, the disc could be viewed by paying a continuation fee, typically $3.25. DIVX discs could only be played on special DIVX/DVD combo players that needed to be connected to a phone line. DIVX player owners had to set up an account with DIVX that additional viewing fees could be charged to. The player would call an account server over the phone line to charge for viewing fees similar to the way DirecTV and Dish Network satellite systems handle pay-per-view. Viewers who wanted unlimited viewing of a particular disc could pay to convert the disc to a "DIVX silver" disc for a special fee. The physical disc was not altered in any way. The viewer's account kept track of the status of each disc.
Unfortunately (since I would like to be able to dub my xyz-DVDs with an English soundtrack from VHS, which I consider to be fair use) there seem to be downsides to DIVX that Blu-Rays don't share:

People like to own a tangible physical object. This includes knowing that it won't stop working because of some mysterious invisible process. (I.e. who would feel as secure with a "DIVX silver" disc as with a DVD?)
Requiring a phone line is both annoying and vaguely threatening.
Setting up an account is also a hassle.

Whereas to e.g. my relatives and nearly all my friends, there will be no tangible difference between the two upcoming formats.

Edit: This includes knowing that it won't stop working because of some mysterious invisible process.Actually, Blue-Rays can stop working like this, can't they (because of revocation information on future discs -- though the issue is much less visible than with DIVX)? Oops.

[Doom9]

Actually, Blue-Rays can stop working like this, can't theyYes they can.. it remains to be seen how the whole revocation scheme is implemented.. whether it's just in form of newer movies or if there's some online connection required. Let's not forget that both camps are pushing "online" features.. your player won't have a phoneline but an ethernet plug, and they will start with content that you can only watch if you are online. So in the end, at least with Blu-ray, the DIVX "remote shutdown" scenario is imaginable. That's a major reason to have a hardware firewall and block any device you cannot control via additional software firewall to phone home.

Just because a kid can watch anime and be entertained by it doesn't mean that he will understand the content.I never said that, did I? But I classify stuff like Mononoke or Nausica as kids movies (and yes I've actually seen them.. I even own them on DVD). That's not saying anything about the genre.. I have other anime DVDs that would effectively make no sense to a kid, and on top of that aren't suited because of violence and the likes.. (Dead Leaves anyone?)

Your final statement in that part of your reply quotes the rumors of never growing up;Actually I was refering to what women tend to say about men.. boys with toys ;)

I see this discussion is heated up very much the last dozen of posts. Nothing wrong with a little heated discussion as long as you know where you have to stop. Sadly, Chainmax didn't see the line I drew in the sand and promptly stepped over it.

[foxyshadis]

haha, Saikano, that was the biggest high school emofest I've seen since NGE. (I would have loved it back when I liked Eva.) Barefoot Gen is much more adult, even if it stars a kid. But I have no problem with a medium being high on entertainment and low on uniquely intelligent and artistic content, I mean, I still watch movies and read books. To say nothing of the internet. :p

Doom9, an internet connection isn't required for these to work, at least yet, right?

[Doom9]

Doom9, an internet connection isn't required for these to work, at least yet, right?I don't think you need an Internet connection to watch movies, but AFAIK there'll be a lot more content on those high def discs that can only be unlocked via Internet. We already have this with some DVDs today, but the abundance of space will make the whole "we put it on your disc but you need to unlock it first" thing more attractive as it's no longer such a waste of space.

[mg262]

Q. What is the advantage of using hardware/software firewalls as opposed to just not connecting the player to the Internet? (I'm not disputing that there is one, I just don't see it... .)

[Doom9]

What is the advantage of using hardware/software firewalls as opposed to just not connecting the player to the Internet? well.. I'd probably wish to log what data is being exchanged. But of course, to be on the safe side never connect the darned thing. I'm sure it'll be interesting to see what the first wave of discs actually contain and how it can be accessed. We'll also see what exactly needs a working Internet access and what works without.

[Dayvon]

Q. What is the advantage of using hardware/software firewalls as opposed to just not connecting the player to the Internet? (I'm not disputing that there is one, I just don't see it... .)
If the disc drive is in your PC, I would HIGHLY recommend firewalls upon firewalls. Those bastards want to eat all of us alive... Instead of giving us a great product at a great price :rolleyes:

[Doobie]

One thing to keep in mind is DIVX. It actually had better studio support than DVD as well.. but it failed.

But, DIVX prohibited movie ownership, cost more, was sold by about only one retail chain, and offered the consumer no benefits over DVD. Blu-ray, on the other hand, is technically superior, it's more restrictive DRM will be hard for the public to appreciate, everyone will sell it, and Sony will put millions of Blu-ray players in the hands of the public via the PS3.

On the subject of consoles, they are for kids. They're fine for playing simulated football, and other twitch games, in the living room. That's about it.

[Doom9]

But, DIVX prohibited movie ownership, cost moreWell.. Blu-ray players cost more than HD DVD players (which in turn cost more than DVD players), and as far as ownership goes, there was DIVX Gold. You could play those in every player without the registration, but I think they also stopped working when they shut down the DIVX master server (after all there was an exchange program).
and offered the consumer no benefits over DVD. How about content that was not available on any other disc format? That's what they're touting now as well.. better studio support.
I'm afraid Blu-ray has a much better start platform than DIVX though ..

[shirohamada]

xbox360 will have HDVD addons, and possibly blue-ray.
seeing how many ps2 sold, i think ps3 will at least be on that amount.
thats a lot of blueray player.

[Doobie]

xbox360 will have HDVD addons, and possibly blue-ray.
seeing how many ps2 sold, i think ps3 will at least be on that amount.
thats a lot of blueray player.

Have disk add-ons (or any hardware upgrade) ever been successful on any game system? The game companies will want to make their games compatible with the common denominator and people won't buy the add-on if there aren't games for it.

A few people might by the blu-ray add-on, just to play the movies made for the PS3 owners. :cool:

[cypher_soundz]

I voted "No, Blu-Ray will win because the PS3 will have it and it's more fantabulous anyway."

we will see , High def tv is coming out over here soon, i will maybe upgrade as my tv is High def.

Perceived quality is a weird thing lol. On my old low quality tv I was happy with normal satellite tv, I get a lcd tv and it makes the picture quality look really bad! All the mpeg compression / macro blocks really show up. So I think if more people get higher quality tv’s then the big HD boom will happen. But I think the saying ignorance is bliss applies here lol, if no one shows the average job public what HD could / will look like not many (in respect to world population) will take it up.

Regards
cyph

[pomo]

we've never been in a situation before where broadcast TV got there before the movie industry. people already have high definition, and for the most part it's pretty good. also, people have unrestricted access to it (if they're lucky enough to not have a broadcast flag restriction). so HD-DVD will only mean no ad breaks (which can be edited easier than ever now) and no station watermarks (which often only turn up on the SD channels), oh, and a slightly higher bitrate which most wont notice on a good HD channel.
that depends on where you live, it's unfortunately not true "here" (west/central europe).
Taking germany for example,
the move towards hdtv broadcasting started only months ago, right now it's only two channels, it's restricted to satellite (while almost all people have cable) and if that wasn't enough, the two channels avaiable use h.264 over dvb-s2 (nice thing for the future but right now, no hardware available yet).

so it's safe to say that here, people don't have hd broadcasted and the sitution will stay that way until hdtv gets available in cable (won't happen anytime soon, thinking years).

that said, hd-dvd (or blue-ray) will be very important, it will be the first media available to bring hd content to the people.


But I think the saying ignorance is bliss applies here lol, if no one shows the average job public what HD could / will look like not many (in respect to world population) will take it up.
over here, ignorance gets people buying high def tvs in the first place :)
walking into any large "electronics" shop, most of what you see in the tv area is hdtv all the way. large screens, larger screens, yet larger screens, all showing astonishing hd-clips. here's where the ignorance comes in: although there's NO WAY of receiving hdtv round here (not yet), people "buy it" anyway. :D

also nice are advertisements (on PAL tv) showing just how sharp and clear those high-def tvs are. :) or even more evil: how much nicer the colors look when having hdtv o_O

ignorance is a nice thing :devil:, it gets people buying hdtv euqipment, even if for the wrong reasons :)

my conclusion then is, hd-dvd and blue-ray, once dropping to affordable prices, will have no problems gaining ground.

[cypher_soundz]

over here, ignorance gets people buying high def tvs in the first place :)
walking into any large "electronics" shop, most of what you see in the tv area is hdtv all the way. large screens, larger screens, yet larger screens, all showing astonishing hd-clips. here's where the ignorance comes in: although there's NO WAY of receiving hdtv round here (not yet), people "buy it" anyway. :D



Ha I know they really should put like a notice telling people about the sample disks they play :mad:

Regards
cyph

[pomo]

hmm now you got me thinking, what exactly do they show :)

from what I remember it's very obvious it's only demo-clips (like from panasonic or canal+ or hd1) looping forever. (actually I forgot hd1 in the post before, i think you can receive that, but that's only a 24h hdtv demo channel broadcasted by satellite. and canal+ is french/belgian afaik).

I can live with it when stores get people buying the right equipment for the wrong reasons. after all, buying a hd-ready tv is a good thing :)

what I can't stand though is when some shops try to get rid of those out-of-date plasma-tvs by advertising them as ideal for hdtv and best value for money. I'm talking about those with that ~852*480 resolution, that's even below PAL. those are getting very cheap because when hdtv arrives, no one with a sane mind will want them anymore... except if it's about the size only.

there's where they should put a big note like "attention: small resolution" instead of fooling the customers by either ommitting that information or even worse, by telling those will look nice with hdtv. (they're not telling lies but they are throwing clues that customers tend to put badly together).

[Zainal]

The whole hdcp thing is a crock. It hurts the early adopters of hdtv. I have an hdtv but being older model there's no hdmi nor dvi with hdcp. If they really implement the whole limited resolution on a non copy protected connection, it will be my fervent desire to kick the heads of the major electronic companies and movie studios in the nads.

[pomo]

I have an hdtv but being older model there's no hdmi nor dvi with hdcp.
there's at least one dvi multi-switch out that compromises hdcp anyway (don't know if that's still sold, couldn't find it anymore) and I read that manufacturers might bring their own adapters for their early products that didn't have hdcp support yet.

so not all hope for people like you is lost. :)

[Zainal]

Unfortunately my set doesn't have a dvi input, only component so a dvi multi-switch doesn't help much; so I still wanna kick them in the balls.

[Doobie]

The whole hdcp thing is a crock. It hurts the early adopters of hdtv. I have an hdtv but being older model there's no hdmi nor dvi with hdcp. If they really implement the whole limited resolution on a non copy protected connection, it will be my fervent desire to kick the heads of the major electronic companies and movie studios in the nads.

Chances are, you don't have a HDTV, you just have a med-def TV. And, that might be about what these blu-ray players will put out for people without HDCP.

If I have it right, you can hook up with blu-ray with 960x540. What's your TVs true resolution?

[Doom9]

Chances are, you don't have a HDTV, you just have a med-def TV. I'm afraid anything above 480p is considered HD. There's not even a different symbol for 1080p ready devices as opposed to 720p.. it's a shame really.
Unfortunately my set doesn't have a dvi input, only componentI'm sure there's a DVI to component device out on the market someplace.. however, I must say, digital sets with analogue input just don't make any sense to me and I don't understand why anybody would put any money into such a product. In the past, I had to send back two flatscreens because the product description included DVI and the device turned out not to have any.. it just doesn't make sense to go analog in a digital world.

[ThatsCletus2u]

Have any of you actually watched HD-TV? It doesn't look much better than my DVDs do using Component Video and progscan. Sure it looks a hell of a lot better than regular television, but there isn't a big enough difference in quality to have people rushing out to buy HD DVDs.

I work in a video store, and it has only been in the last year that we finally dumped all our VHS and we only did that because we were running out of space and new movies weren't being produced in the format(at reasonable prices). Overall I believe that the HD DVDs won't overtake our current standard because the quality gap isn't large enough, not enough people have HD ready sets, and tons of people are just now upgrading to DVD and won't want to make such a pricey change just a year down the road.

Another thing to consider is that the average DVD consumer could care less about special features and the like. Most people will also be very skeptical about having to connect their DVD players to the internet thinking that the studios are spying on them.

My vote is that neither format takes off.