agk 2.26 and packed bitstream

[chilled]

ALL my 2.26 encodings get these nasty nvops which make them unreadable (or very very jerky) on some standalones (at least here in spain) , even with .ess option checked (I think it is the more restrictive one).

Is it a bug or it finally was decided that way as stated in an old thread (agk 2.08)?

I think having the option to unpack it with some 3rd-party-not-included tool is just not newbie-oriented.

[shon3i]

Try to use MPEG4 Modifier search forum to find link.

[chilled]

yes, thank you, but it's the tool I was talking about. I mean: I can do it by myself because I am not a total beguinner anymore, but I think AGK is mostly aimed at newbies, so .ess (maybe also .mtk) option should deliver non nvoped avis, dont you think? This has already been discused some six months ago (as for 2.08 version).

[BigDid]

yes, thank you, but it's the tool I was talking about. I mean: I can do it by myself because I am not a total beguinner anymore, but I think AGK is mostly aimed at newbies, so .ess (maybe also .mtk) option should deliver non nvoped avis, dont you think? This has already been discused some six months ago (as for 2.08 version).
Hi,

I have a SAP with mtk chip and no problem (and I suppose, no nVOP), but it seems this NVOP has been discussed a lot:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=100938&highlight=nvop
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=93263&highlight=nvop
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=72899&highlight=nvop

Did

[kentar]

Chilled, what type of standalone do you have ?

I'll just speak about my experience with AutoGK.
1st of all MANY THANKS to Len0x for this great program.
I don't think your problem as well as mine is because of the packet bitstream or NVOP.
I've been using AutoGK every now and then to backup my DVD collection.
Tried a lot of builds and I was quite happy.
I got a standalone player last summer LG DVX9900 / LG LDA-530.
It plays DivX, Xvid, packed bitstream, QPEL and even GMC, up to 2. GMC 3 doesn't work. Can even play DivX6 files with multiple audio streams.
It's based on MTK MT1389FE.
Everything worked fine... until one day I noticed tearing / jerky artefacts during playback.
I noticed that if I go back to AutoGK v2.13, everything was fine.
I was using v2.18, tried even with v2.20. Same thing.
Encoding with DivX6 worked fine. I started playing with different Xvid builds, same result. Then I noticed the last builds had a custom matrix and I think this is the problem, at least for my case, my type of player.
I tried going back to a version that didn't use custom matrix with the same movie and it worked fine.

Now, with latest AutoGK v226 I had no problem with sound, errors like other people here. Maybe I was just lucky...
With v226 I did some tests and it appeared to be working fine.
Last week, I got a movie that had the same problem, strange artefacts.
As I had another one in the queue I waited for that one to finish the encoding and I tried it on the standalone. I was amazed to see it working fine...

I tried all the options in AutoGK - Compatibility checked and not checked, with Xvid it made no difference, could see artefacts.

Now I want to stick to latest version and I only hope that maybe Len0x will make some options customizable: custom matrix, QPEL, GMC, etc.
This shouldn't be hard to implement.

Meanwhile I'm still doing tests with Xvid but I'm encoding with DivX6.
DivX6 sucks compared to Xvid but it plays ok on my player.

Once again, thanks Len0x for this great program !

[chilled]

Well thanks, after reading some of these threads, I guess short answer is (correct me if Im wrong):
1) n-vop is not exactly the same as packed bitstream
2) n-vop is mpeg4 standard compliant, so this setting wont be changed in AutoGK/xvid
3) 50 euro "divx" labelled standalones are not always fully mpeg4 standard compliant

Me and my friends all own ess standalones (I think), because everyone heres buys the cheapest available one. Most people just want their downloaded movies to be played in their standalones, but I really want my dvd backups to run on my standalone and, if possible, on theirs.
I guess using cd-rw and dvd-rw is not such a good idea, even if burnt at 2x, but phew I got problems also with dvd-r (jerky playback or blackwhite playback or freezing just after some seconds...) so I guessed it was n-vop related since I have noticed that other people's rips only report b-vops in Gspot (only 1 consecutive b-vop probably).

[celtic_druid]

1) Real n-vops have nothing to do with packed bitstream.
2) packed bistream and the associated n-vops are not MPEG-4 standards compliant.
3) No current players are fully ASP compliant.

The cheapest players actually tend to use Sunplus chipsets. We are talking less around $50 AUD here though (30 euro).

For an ESS based player, you should be encoding with ESS compatibility. This should mean 1 bframe with packed bistream enabled and no CQM's.

[chilled]

So I guess (from 1)) that nvops reported by gspot are possibly false (empty, fake, whatever) nvops but the thing is with earlier AutoGK versions (maybe Im actually meaning earlier xvid builts) gspot DIDNT report any nvops (real or fake) and those encodings where almost always readable by our crappy standalones. I dont say none of the new encodings are not readable at all, but it happens that before that, .ess compatibilty option (which I use since it is there) worked fine for me, which is not always the case anymore. And only diference I found was that nvop thing.
btw, nor .mtk nor gmc,qpel 'ed xvids ever worked for me.

Do you think a "harder" limitation of the .ess (or new one, called ".crappystandalones") could be implemented? (I know, I know, only bugfixes, but maybe this is something easy and it's just changing one line of code or two). I dont know how much "quality" (bitrate, compressibilty, whatever) is earned with those fake nvops, but I think many people still own (and buy) crappy standalones and this one could solve many compatibility problems.


edit: oops reading myself I think I still dont know if nvops reported by gspot are true or fake ones (or if they are packed bitstream or the other thing), but nevermind what Im asking is: shouldnt they be out for more standalone compatible encodings?

[kentar]

...
Do you think a "harder" limitation of the .ess (or new one, called ".crappystandalones") could be implemented?
...


Have you tried encoding something with DivX ?
How is DivX supported by your player compared with Xvid ?

Analyze your video file with MPEG4 Modifier (http://www.moitah.net/), see if the results under 'video info' are the same as in GSpot.

[chilled]

divx, no, never. Last time it was something like 5.0.2 version... As my backups are not only intended for standalone playback, I prefer xvid, which is considered somewhat superior (maybe not that much without qpel, gmc, etc but for me free software>propietary software: Im very concerned about the ideological aspect; and yes I know AGK is not free software but it uses many open source apps and Len0x's developpement has been very "free software oriented" -look at this forum!)

[celtic_druid]

DivX as far as I know never uses real N-VOP's. It only uses them for packed bitstream.

With XviD, enabling bframes used to disable N-VOP's, as I understand it, you can now have both and setting the frame drop ratio or whatever setting to 0 doesn't mean that you will get 0 N-VOP's. It will however only drop duplicate frames, so it shouldn't be an issue, well other than for crappy standalones.

So if it is true that XviD now supports N-VOP's with bframes, then there is no way to disable them.

[kentar]

When I asked the DivX question I was thinking that maybe DivX works on your player.
Until the artefacts came up in my encodings I always use to think Xvid is the only real codec (best compression, open source, etc.)
Now, I don't know... as I still love Xvid, maybe I'll just go for GKnot, DivX still doesn't appeal to me.

:o

[chilled]

OK lets asume it cant be disabled then.

kentar divx would maybe work on my standalone but my encodings are also intended for backup purposes (and sometimes I want to play them from my pc -connected to The Crap) and I dont want to change my encoding procedure because of my lo-fi technology...

[kentar]

...my encodings are also intended for backup purposes
...and I dont want to change my encoding procedure because of my lo-fi technology...

What you said, it's pretty much the same way I think.
As AutoGK doesn't encode using QPEL and GMC you will not achieve the best quality possible.
What's worst in my opinion is the fact that you don't have any options to set GMC/QPEL.
You see, different standalones have different support for these.
My player knows about packed bitstream, QPEL and even GMC (up to 2 warp poins) so I would love being able to set that.
Yet, it has a MTK chipset.

I love AutoGK for it's so easy to use, too bad is no longer developed.

[laserfan]

...You see, different standalones have different support for these...This whole subject absolutely makes my head pound!

I have Sigma Designs media players; the older ones use OTTOMH the EM8551 and the new HD one uses the EM8620L, and I just noticed last night that the NEWER one plays my XviDs LESS WELL (less smoothly) than the older players with the "inferior" chip. I have no idea what that's about!

I typically use AGK w/MTK-Sigma NTSC profile/standalone support enabled which of course means no packed bitstream & no nvops.

I also use Fairuse Wizard 2 to make Xvids from DVDs, and when I use FUW I use the XviD from AGK (w/MTK NTSC profile and matrix) except I select packed bitstream and it actually seems to work BETTER on my standalones.

I wish I could say that I've come to some conclusions about what-is-best but now that I see my newer player stumbling over some "easy" encodes, I must admit I'm back almost to "square one" on this subject.

Someday, someone (smarter than I no doubt) will build a spreadsheet showing chipsets vs. Xvid settings for optimal playback...

[kentar]

Someday, someone will build a spreadsheet showing chipsets vs. Xvid settings for optimal playback...

Awesome idea ! :thanks:

[laserfan]

This is an old thread but I was just PM'ed by a member about it, and thought I would follow-up with at least my now year-old Sigma-chip experience:

The Pinnacle Showcenters do not like "unpacked bitstream" Xvids, nor do they like AT ALL VBR MP3 audio tracks (which AGK defaults to).

As a result of the above I now use StaxRip and Fairuse Wizard 2.5 (celtic_druid's build) for my Xvid encodes, where I can customize all the Xvid settings therein.

If anyone cares, I can come-back here sometime and list all the settings I use--my Xvids play beautifully on both my player types...

[jdlk]

laserfan,

I'm the bloke who PM'd you (thanks again for the help), and I'd really appreciate it if you would post your settings. At the moment mine are as follows (I use Mencoder, as I'm trying to fully automate the TV recording/encoding process - once I have my scripts right, I want to forget about them!

I use these options for encoding UK Freeview TV recordings (720x576 PAL anamorphic). I find that my (Sigma 8551) Showcenter can't play Xvid files smoothly unless I resize down to 640x512. These settings seem to get me a nice balance between filesize and quality, but I'm sure I can probably do better.


-sws 9 (this option uses the lanczos scaler)
-vf scale=640:512,harddup
-ovc xvid
-xvidencopts
fixed_quant=3.5
overflow_control_strength=0 max_overflow_improvement=8 max_overflow_degradation=4
vhq=1 max_bframes=1 packed par=pal169
-oac mp3lame
-lameopts
vbr=0 br=128 (i.e. CBR 128 - Showcenter doesn't like VBR, as laserfan confirmed)
-o "%%~dpi%%~ni".avi