WMV 9 advanced profile streams

[kiranrao]

does anyone have an ideawhere i can get wmv9 advanced profile streams?

[diogen]

Advanced Profile is an option in Windows Media Encoding.
I think all the clips at http://www.wmvhd.com/ were encoded using
Advanced Profile (this is why they are CBR, AP is not supported in VBR).
And so are the DVDs: T2, Coral Reef, Amazon, Liquid to name a few.

Diogen.

[bond]

I think all the clips at http://www.wmvhd.com/ were encoded using
Advanced Profile (this is why they are CBR, AP is not supported in VBR).
any link to information backing this wild claim, that ap doesnt do vbr, up?

[diogen]

any link to information backing this wild claim, that ap doesnt do vbr, up?
Sorry, bond, my bad.
I meant to say 2-pass VBR does not support AP.

I remember reading on AVS, while doing WMV version of T2 they needed both AP and bitrate control
(the later - for reliable playback on PCs). That couldn't be done using VBR (at least at that time).

Diogen.

[bond]

we again have to differentiate between vc-1, the video standard, and wmv9, the m$ implementation of vc-1, here

i seriously doubt that the vc-1 standard doesnt include vbr for advanced profile, so its surely possible to write a 2pass vc-1 advanced profile encoder

a different story is of course if the wmv9 ap encoder supports 2pass. Last time i tested it m$ wmv9 encoder was pretty slow, obviously 2pass makes it even more slower and m$ might have thought its not worth yet another slowdown
just guessing tough (i have no clue what m$ wmv9 ap encoder supports and what not)

[diogen]

...i seriously doubt that the vc-1 standard doesnt include vbr for advanced profile, so its surely possible to write a 2pass vc-1 advanced profile encoder...
I'd think so.
But while doing T2 they didn't have it (VC-1 as we know it today didn't exist).
The latest x64 version of WME does do VC-1 "compliant" encodes, but I could never make it work.
...Last time i tested it m$ wmv9 encoder was pretty slow, obviously 2pass makes it even more slower and m$ might have thought its not worth yet another slowdown...
I use the Performance<->Quality slider in the first position to the left off center.
Encoding only satellite HD movies (~12Mbps -> ~5Mbps) CBR AP with some denoise and B-frames,
I end up around 1/10th real time on AMD64 3700+ and 1GB RAM.
Haven't tried AVIVO (have a NV6600 now).

Diogen.

[Rash]

Diogen, T2 wasn't encoded using the Advanced Profile. It was a 2-pass VBR encoding. ;) Now, as far as VC-1 supporting AP + VBR I really don't know.

I have a question too, a very stupid one. When I encode using WMEncoder the framerate on the final file is the same framerate acheived by the encoder during the encoding process. It seems like the encoder is writing a real-time wmv file. So if I'm using my computer during the encoding process and the encoding fps drops, the fps in the file drops as well.

Is there a way of encoding like x264, XviD and any other codec? I mean, the encoded final file has a fixed fps (and not dependent on the encoding fps)? Thank you very much.

[bond]

Diogen, T2 wasn't encoded using the Advanced Profile. It was a 2-pass VBR encoding. ;) Now, as far as VC-1 supporting AP + VBR I really don't know.vc-1 surely supports vbr in advanced profile

[Rash]

Alright. I guessed it does. ;)

[diogen]

Diogen, T2 wasn't encoded using the Advanced Profile. It was a 2-pass VBR encoding. ;)
It was a long time ago and I could be wrong, but I think Amir claimed that T2 is done in CBR with AP. But I wouldn't bet more than $1 ;)
vc-1 surely supports vbr in advanced profile
doom9 should know for sure.
Although vc-1 didn't make through the latest codec comparison, I think he had an early copy of the encoder.
He's most probably under NDA.

Diogen.

[bond]

It was a long time ago and I could be wrong, but I think Amir claimed that T2 is done in CBR with AP. But I wouldn't bet more than $1 ;) better not bet, at the time that dvd was released m$ didnt have an advanced profile encoder

doom9 should know for sure.
Although vc-1 didn't make through the latest codec comparison, I think he had an early copy of the encoder.let me make one thing clear:
vc-1 is the standard. wmv9 is just one implementation of the standard.
vc-1 advanced profile for sure includes vbr. whether m$' wmv9 does vbr with ap, no idea. i would be really surprised if not, cause its harder to implement cbr than vbr video coding

[diogen]

Is there a way of encoding like x264, XviD and any other codec? I mean, the encoded final file has a fixed fps (and not dependent on the encoding fps)? Thank you very much.
From WME help:
"Frame rate. Type the number of frames per second (fps) for the video content. The amount that you adjust this value to depends on the speed of your computer processor and whether you are encoding high-motion or low-motion video. High-motion video generally looks smoother if you use a higher frame rate, but a higher frame rate increases the amount of work the processor must perform. The setting you specify represents the maximum fps. Depending on factors such as the video size and codec quality setting, the actual fps you achieve might be lower."

I guess you don't have _complete_ control over it.

Diogen.

[CruNcher]

Tomb Raider 2 the Concorde encode was done in CBR Mode and i think AP

[diogen]

better not bet, at the time that dvd was released m$ didnt have an advanced profile encoder
You are right. It showed up in SDK 9.5 (or WMP10).
I take back my bet offer :D

Diogen.

[Rash]

I guess you don't have _complete_ control over it.
:eek: It could only be "where do you want to go today" company. :( Are your encodes smooth Diogen? Thanks a lot for the info.

vc-1 is the standard. wmv9 is just one implementation of the standard.
Well, but since we know history, the right sequence would be: wmv9 is a codec, VC-1 is the standard created from this codec. ;) :D

[diogen]

Are your encodes smooth Diogen?
I can't complain, really.
Aside from taking quite a bit of computer time, I'm quite happy with WME.
As I wrote above, I mainly encode satellite hidef (720p most of the time, on occasion inverse telecine 1080i).
VideoReDo usually shows 10 to 50 resync errors while I check the recording (if it's more, I discard it). I can't see those errors after encodes are done.
I use CBR/AP except for action movies, where I use 2-pass VBR/MP.
Playback is on a PC using AC3Filter with DD output to receiver and video through ZoomPlayer to a projector.
I'm using a NV6600GT video card with PureVideo codecs. I think this pair is one of the best at the moment for PC playback.
Would really like to try an ATI X1600 for H.264 playback. Some claim the X1K is the new video quality king.

Diogen.

[Rash]

Cool then! ;)

[bond]

Well, but since we know history, the right sequence would be: wmv9 is a codec, VC-1 is the standard created from this codec. ;) :Dwell thats incomplete. correct would be: there was the mpeg-4 standard. m$ created wmv9 from it by modifying it a bit. after that vc-1 was created from wmv9 ;)

[Sagittaire]

Rate Control is not standard problem ... VC-1 can use all the possible RC type like :

- N pass CBR -> streaming
- N pass ABR -> hardware restricted vbv
- N pass VBR -> constant quality

In fact Rate Control is like an "external plugin" ... all codec in the world (audio and video codec) can use all RC type.

WM9Encoder don't use these RC but it's simply a developper choice ...

[HookedOnTV]

I can't complain, really.
Aside from taking quite a bit of computer time, I'm quite happy with WME.
As I wrote above, I mainly encode satellite hidef (720p most of the time, on occasion inverse telecine 1080i).
VideoReDo usually shows 10 to 50 resync errors while I check the recording (if it's more, I discard it). I can't see those errors after encodes are done.
I use CBR/AP except for action movies, where I use 2-pass VBR/MP.
Playback is on a PC using AC3Filter with DD output to receiver and video through ZoomPlayer to a projector.
I'm using a NV6600GT video card with PureVideo codecs. I think this pair is one of the best at the moment for PC playback.
Would really like to try an ATI X1600 for H.264 playback. Some claim the X1K is the new video quality king.

Diogen.

What container are you using for wmv+ac3?

[Rash]

well thats incomplete. correct would be: there was the mpeg-4 standard. m$ created wmv9 from it by modifying it a bit. after that vc-1 was created from wmv9 ;)
Haha, perfect! :D

[diogen]

What container are you using for wmv+ac3?
I don't keep AC3 soundtracks anymore.
When I used to do it with DVDs, I used VDM to create AVI with WMV+AC3.
I think WMA Pro does as good a job as AC3 and AC3Filter makes this soundtrack look like DD to the receiver.

Diogen.

[Valeron]

What container are you using for wmv+ac3?

To use AC3 with WMV9 make no sense, when you decide to go with WMV9, you've already given up compatibility, then there's so many options to encode audio which is far superior to AC3, such as WMA 9.1 Pro.

[gaekwad2]

But maybe you don't want to recompress the audio to preserve its quality?

[zambelli]

Some clarifications:

WMV-HD discs are encoded using WMV9 (fourCC: WMV3, not WMVA).

VC-1 spec covers 2-pass VBR encoding. Microsoft's early implementation of WMV Advanced Profile (as released with WME9) did not support 2-pass encoding. Future implementations will.

Re-encoding AC3 to WMA Pro, only to re-encode it back to AC3 again (especially using the mediocre encoder implementation in AC3Filter) seems like a huge waste of audio quality. You should check out the SolveigMM ASF Muxer tool - http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=92136 - and see if you can use it to store the original AC3 streams in your WMV file.

[HookedOnTV]

I use the Matroska muxer to put wmv+ac3 into mkv. Works wonderfully.

[acidsex]

Some clarifications:

WMV-HD discs are encoded using WMV9 (fourCC: WMV3, not WMVA).

VC-1 spec covers 2-pass VBR encoding. Microsoft's early implementation of WMV Advanced Profile (as released with WME9) did not support 2-pass encoding. Future implementations will.


So does the x64 encoder that is supposed to be VC-1 compliant support 2-pass VBR? I still cant seem to get it to do 2 passes using VBR. (not talking about the VBR quality mode)

[zambelli]

So does the x64 encoder that is supposed to be VC-1 compliant support 2-pass VBR? I still cant seem to get it to do 2 passes using VBR. (not talking about the VBR quality mode)
The Adv Profile encoder DMO that shipped with it does not support 2-pass VBR. That will be improved in future releases.

[diogen]

While talking about x64 encoding - how do you guys do that?
My understanding is, you need 64-bit codecs but I can't find any.

Thanks.
Diogen.

[zambelli]

While talking about x64 encoding - how do you guys do that?
My understanding is, you need 64-bit codecs but I can't find any.
That's my understanding too. A 32-bit DLL can't run in a 64-bit process space as far as I know.
Can you encode uncompressed video? You could try frameserving with a 64-bit version of Avisynth as a workaround.

[diogen]

...You could try frameserving with a 64-bit version of Avisynth as a workaround.
Thanks, zambelli.
Will try that.

Diogen.

[saad]

can someone exactly tell me from where can i get wmv stream with B-frames ..or any video with B-frames (i will encode it into wmv)

[bond]

can someone exactly tell me from where can i get wmv stream with B-frames ..or any video with B-frames (i will encode it into wmv)definitely not from m$' vfw codec, cause in contrary to many people, m$ is smart enough to know that vfw and b-frames dont fit :D

[zambelli]

can someone exactly tell me from where can i get wmv stream with B-frames ..or any video with B-frames (i will encode it into wmv)
Most MPEG-2 DVD encodes have B-frames.
You can create WMV files with B-frames using the WMV Advanced Profile codec in either 32-bit or 64-bit versions of WM Encoder 9. The NumBFrames setting for WMVA codec is documented in:
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/howto/articles/codecadvancedsettings.aspx

[saad]

i want wmv stream with B frames ...from where can i get it ?????????

[bond]

man, cool down, noone owes you anything here

create some yourself as zambelli said...

edit: striked for rule 12, you are one strike away from being banned
edit2: ok now he started crossposting:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=108071
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=108072
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...089#post793089

have a nice month...

[diogen]

Most MPEG-2 DVD encodes have B-frames.
You can create WMV files with B-frames using the WMV Advanced Profile codec...
I asked Ben on AVS about the number of B-frames to use while encoding hidef using WMV9. His answer was - two (NumBFrames=2).
Is there any rationale behind choosing this number? Can it be used in a certain range? Or is this just experience?
The sat hidef movies I've seen use the IBBPBBPBBPBBPBBI pattern for 720p60 -two B-frames as well (checked using VideoReDo).

Thanks.
Diogen.

[bond]

a smart encoder should be able to decide when to best use what amount of b-frames (eg like xvid and x264 can do), no idea if wmv9 also supports this adaptiveness