Undersizing using 2.70.2.0

[apfraats]

I have done three DVD´s yet with 2.70.2.0 with CCEtargetsectors= 2276400.

This before always resulted in 4.35 GB

Now there is undersizing such as:

4.31 (one DVD)
4.35 (one DVD), this is correct
4.15 (one DVD)

Before 2.70.2.0 (2.67.0.10) it was always 4.35/4.36 GB

Now there is some undersizing.

I use MINBITRATE=0, but used that also with 2.67 and never resulted in undersizing.

Have more people experencied a bit of undersizing with 2.70.2.0 ????

It's not a disaster, but before the resuls were always a steady 4.35/4.36 GB.

4.15 I consider waste of space (300 MB !)

There were no errors and no segments with a avisynth error message.

[Mr. Monte]

I am averaging 4.32-4.35 consistantly with CCE 2.70.2.4

The only issue I have had is using the 1-pass VBR with analysis option. That yeilded a 3 gig file.

[apfraats]

Can't this be a 2.70.2.0 issue as you use 2.70.2.4 ???

Also the SPEED indication behaves like an idiot.....

Starts with 30+ and goes down towards the real value at the very very end.

Also a weird thing...

[DD51]

Also the SPEED indication behaves like an idiot.....

Starts with 30+ and goes down towards the real value at the very very end.

Also a weird thing...

CCE SP v2.70.2.4 has resolved the speed issue. It now behaves normally.

[apfraats]

Thanks a lot ! Although it's cosmetical, I cannot immagine how they test their software as someting like this should be immediately seen.....

But is undersizing also a version specific problem here ??

I know have running the same DVD at:
(4.35/4.15)*CCETRAGETSECTORS_I_USE (2256400)
and DVD-RB was complaining about SOURCE ALREADY FITS and adjusted it down to 100% (=number of sectors used by original)

It's not finished now, but sure it will be less then 4.35......

I don't think this is a DVD-RB-PRO issue, because it always worked PRECISELY using CCE 2.67.0.10.

So I wonder.....

Any additions are welcome.

[Cropsy]

I have always used 2.70.2.0 since it was released. I have the same ting with the speed level, but never gave it a thought. I asumed that it was supposed to be like this.
I'm guessing that I have made backup of about 800-900 movies and tvshows, and about 5 of those came out undersized from 3.9G to 4.2G (if 4.2 is considered undersized). All of those movies (wich I don't remember the titles of) was tried to do a second time with the same result. So I'm guessing that some movies just behaves like that for some reason I don't understand. I'm currently using CCETARGETSECTORS=2255000 and always hit 4.33G to 4.36G.

[apfraats]

That's precisely the point.

Using 2.66/2.67 did always deliver 4.35/4.36 and on ocassion 4.34 output.

This DVD, and I have wriiten a fault in it:

a) Came out originally at 4.11 GB

b) After 100% compression (CCETARGETSECTORS source <= CCETARGETSECTORS SET) it came out on 4.20 !!!!

c) I put ECLCCE back in place referring to my CCE 2.66 executable and YES, it was a nice 4.35 again !!!

So were 2.70.2.0 makes it 4.11, with the sme parameters 2.66 makes it 4.35 GB !!

Sure now this is a CCE version specific problem.

I just tried 3, and 2 were undersized.....

But then again, I'm the kind of person for which statistic won't work. If it's working 99.9% of the cases, I'll always get the 0,1% case it doesn't..., that's the way I live.

[jdobbs]

I use v2.70 for all my encodes... and they all come out exactly the same as v2.50 and v2.67 (for me that's the default size of 4.32GB). Are you modifying other parameters in CCE that may affect size? Are you using OPV?

The speed indicator in v2.70 is goofy... it seems to forget to reset its counter for the previous passes when it starts a new pass and you get ridiculously high scores...

[jptheripper]

since this is really a cce issue and not a rebuilder issue, shouldnt it be moved to the appropriate forum?

[apfraats]

Maybe, maybe not....

The use of CCE with DVD-RB-PRO seems to be in place here.

Otherwise you could move about 50% or more post to other forums....

All about Matrices for example.....
All about CCE 2.70 compatibility for example...
All about procoder for example...

And I can continue to add items to this list....

Is clearly about the WAY DVD-RB-PRO uses CCE as a part of whole.

Is not about CCE in special.

It's about CCE running under DVD-RB-PRO,

so finally, NO I suppose it belongs here.....

[apfraats]

@JDOBBS (sorry , missed youre message at first sight):

The only difference here is the use of 2.70.2.0 and the use 2.66.x.x.

Using 2.66/2.67 I have had NEVER a problem.

Using 2.70.2.0 gives me 2 undersized compressions out of 3 tried.

CROSPY dit about 900 and had 5 not explainavle undersized results.

Of course, me knowing me, i probably have 1 of those 5 in my first attemts :)

But seriously I do the normal job, no OPV, nothing about that with RB-OPT.

I have both CCE 2.66 and CCE 2.70.2.0 existing in the DVD-RB dir, of coursae renamed to the correct version so CCTSPT266 and CCTSPT2700200.

CCTSPT266 I use with ECLCCE and CCTSPT2700200 not, but with TRIAL CCE setup.

result:

CCE 2.66 = 4.34 GB
CCE 2.70.2.0 = 4.11 GB

That was the only variable factor in comparing.

a difference of .23 GB is really too m7uch, and probably:

1) An execptional case (always me)
2) Version dependent CCE behaviour.

All calculations done by DVD-RB-PRO including MAX/MIN/AVG bitrate and reduce % were exactly the same.

But after several hundereds of 2.66/2.67 compressed DVD's, that were always 4.34/4.35 GB, now suddenly with a trial of three with 2.70.2.0 I have more different restults up to wasting 230 MB of space.

I'm sure it is version specific and try other 2.70 subversions.

I sure can be the case that 2.70.2.4 is doing just fine.

I'm trying that now, with my laptop at my mothers place (lasting hours and hours.....) and will see the difference.

As far as I see know, 2.70.2.0 has more variation in target size than what I've ever seen from 2.66/2.67.

2.70.2.4 is on trial now....

[apfraats]

well well,

Same source, same setting, CCE version variable:

2.66 4.34 GB (1......X) repeatable.
2.70.2.0 4.11 GB (1.......X) repeatbale.
2.70.2.0 4.20 GB (1....X) repeatable. at MAX 100% compression !!!!!
2.70.2.1 4.13 GB (1....x) repeatable.


Well, even going for 100% at CCETARGETSECTORS>SOURCE SECTORS, only gives 4.20 GB !!! (source about 4.75 GB)

and now running 2.70.2.4, let's hope for better results....

Otherwise I'll try some other sources before returning to 2.67.......

[Cropsy]

If it matters.
I forgot to tell you that I always do 3 passes and always use the default CCE settings in DVD-RB. Except for the targetsectors settings that is.
But I always preprosess with Vobblanker first to delete everything I dont like, like trailers, FBI warnings, commercials and shit that starts before the movie itself starts. So my disc always starts in the main meny. Then I prosess it with menushrink and always keep the main menu in it's original size and the rest as stills.

Anyway HAPPY NEW YEAR TO EVERYBODY

And Jdobbs keep up the good work and lets hope that this DVDformat sticks with us for many many years :p

[jdobbs]

Happy New Year to all!!

[apfraats]

Of course to everubody : Happy Newyear !!

(and let the Blue Ray don't waste our pleasure, sure JDOBBS is already doing research on this :) :) :) )


@CROPSY:

I do much te same, even less complex.

I use DVDSHRINK to do a movie only backup, and the feed to DVD-RB-PRO is just 1 main movie, nothing else. Also always 3 passes set in DVD-RB-PRO.

And now the result with this annoying DVD of mine with 2.7.2.4:

4.13 GB.......

I give it up, 2.66 does ok, all 2.70 version I have tried not....

So I leave it here, and try other DVD's first.

Maybe it's a special case here......

Strange although that 2.66 does the job ok.....

As I do more DVD's first I'll see what happens....

[raquete]

i have the old cce2.50,266 trail,2700200 trial (with crazy speed indication) and 2700204 trial(seems that the speed indication was corrected).
i have the dvd-rb v0.96 free version and sometimes i use 2 passes and when the movie is cool,3 passes.all cce versions give me the same final size(few differences,when have)...i reencode one movie 5 times(crazy right?) to choose filters and his results.

now i'm curious apfraats:
can you post the rebuilder.ini from default instalation folder?
will be cool ! thanks.

:)

[apfraats]

Yep, I have to cut and paste.

You will notice a absurd CCETARGETSECTORS, because I had to 'force' DVD-RB-PRO ton 100% compression, and even then it's undersized, probably to about 4.23 GB.

So here it is:

[Options]
CCEtargetsectors=2400000 #2256400 #2277550 (4.30->4.34) #2255000
MIN_BITRATE=0
vts_min_size=0
Mode=1
OneClick=0
ReduceOpt=0
NoWarn=1
AdditionalOutput=1
LogFile=1
QuEncHQ=1
EncoderMinimized=1
RemoveDTS=0
HC_Quality=1
HC_Matrix=1
CCE=3
SkinVersion=10
Skin=Rebuilder Default
QuEncodeType=0
DVD_Label=THE SKELETON KEY_MO0140_[5.1]{2
DVD_Name=THE SKELETON KEY_MO0140_[5.1]{2.ISO
HalfD1=00
Convert_16_9=00
DisableInterlace=00
DCPrec=3
Completed=21
HalfExtras=0
MainMatrix=Encoder Default
AudioDub=1
iDCT=3
GOP=2
LowMatrix=Same as Main Feature
VLowMatrix=Same as Main Feature
ExtraMatrix=Same as Main Feature
ProCoder_Quality=4
MovieOnly=0
ConvertToYUY2=1
AVSFilter01=undot()
[Paths]
QuEnc=d:\DVD-RB PRO\Encoders\QuEnc\QuEnc.exe
ReJig=d:\DVD-RB PRO\Encoders\ReJig\ReJig.exe
HC=d:\DVD-RB PRO\Encoders\HC Encoder\HCbatch.EXE
ProCoder=d:\DVD-RB PRO\Encoders\EclPro\EclPro.exe
DECOMB=C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\Decomb521.dll
MPEG2DEC=d:\DVD-RB PRO\DGDecode.dll
Working=E:\DVDRB\
Output=E:\DVDRB\
CCENew=D:\DVD-RB PRO\cctspt2700204.exe
Source=M:\20051228\THE SKELETON KEY_MO0140_[5.1]{2}_WLB\
[CCEOptions]
VBR_bias=0
Quality_prec=32
eclPasses=3
[Audio]
Selected=11
Remapping=
[Subpictures]
Selected=1111


Now the CCETARGETSECTORS are set to a value higher than original, and sure despite that the DV'D comes out undersized.

The original size is 4.43 GB and at 100% it will be about 4.23 GB, 200 MB are gone forever...... at 100%.

The 'normal' setting I use is 2256400 having about 4.34-4.36 GB.

If I use 2.66 it will be ok, with all 2.70 versions I tried it's undersized.

I hope it's for this particulair DVD only, I'll see.

A job lasts about 7 hours on my laptop, so I need more time.

If more DVD's are getting uncersized I simply go back using 2.67 or so.

But seeing other user comments, I probably have a 'weird' DVD or so.

[archaeo]

The original size is 4.43 GB...

A job lasts about 7 hours on my laptop, so I need more time.


why don't you just make life easier on yourself and use dvdshrink? you're only looking at a very minor compression here.

[raquete]

apfraats,
can you test only one time changing the line CCEtargetsectors=2???? to TargetSectors=2264000 and encode with any cce version? this is what i use and give me the right final sizes as i posted.
my cce options are differents from yours:
[CCEOptions]
VBR_bias=25
Quality_prec=16
eclPasses=3

ot but is in topic:(how can i explain?) :p
i read your post about min_bitrate=0 and really works and it don't input any error in the size target.no matter what value choosed(from 0 to 500) ...was a cool hint.


HNY :)

[Cropsy]

@CROPSY:

I do much te same, even less complex.

I use DVDSHRINK to do a movie only backup, and the feed to DVD-RB-PRO is just 1 main movie, nothing else. Also always 3 passes set in DVD-RB-PRO.

.



I like to keep the menu. I also like to keep the blooper reel if it is available. I never use DVDSHRINK anymore, even if the original is very close to 4,35G. Don't ask me why, I just like it like that. :p
DVD-RB is the only way for me to make backups

[apfraats]

@CROSPY

Sorry that I forgot to mention that doing a movie only backup is always UNCOMPRESSED !!

So I use DVDSHRINK as a quick way to FILTER the main movie out of the other things I don´t need, even the menu.

I know REAUTRHORING to MOVIE ONLY in DVDSHRINK has a bug in VOB/COUNT, but I also know JDOBBS wisely checks for this in REBUILD stage, and let DVD-RB corrrect it.

@raquete
I tested everything possible, with all 2.70 version this particular DVD get's undersized.

Even using 100% compression by setting targetsector much too high, yields a result of 4.20 GB !!

Simple use of 2.66 was solving this problem.

Now I'm trying a next DVD to compress with 2.70.2.4 and see what comes out.

Probably this one is ok.

Don't ask me why that .... DVD I have gives these stranges results.....

I really won't know, but it looks that CCE 2.70 is being at fault here, in some way.

Well, I have to go on, and try 2.70.2.4 some more times. If it's undersizing becomes a structural problem, I'll try running on another CPU and see.

Seeing others commenting, chances are BIG that only a few DVD's are getting undersized and most go ok.

Let's wait some time and see....

[apfraats]

Ok, let's say this:

I had one difficult DVD, that's all.

Two others came out fine at 4.36 GB pretty towards max DVD5 space.

And some other observations:

2.70.2.4 is much more dynamic in bitrate distribution. Even in 1 second it can raise or lower bitrate by more then 5000 Kbps !!!

The graphs with bitrate veiwer are totally different regarding to those of 2.66/2.67. There is much much more dynamic.

I have to test before drawing futher conclusions, but that comes with time.

The new encoding engine seems hyper-sensitive and I hope this will show up in results with the always problematic lower average bitrate compressions.


As far as concerning undersizing: It's DVD specific, I think in most cases it's OK. In some other cases it's not.....

[winny]

Preprocessing with shrink seems unnecessary, especially with the added risk of compatibility issues you've already mentioned.

Why not use rebuilder's movie only mode if that's all you want?

[raquete]

Simple use of 2.66 was solving this problem. good to know.

i told you that i have 250(full),266 and the last 2 CCE 2.70.2.0xx(the last 3 are trials and this 4 versions give me seamless final sizes.

let me ask and understand my question from who really don't know the advanced adjusts in cce:
using RB free version,i have and use all default cce adjusts:
[CCEOptions]
VBR_bias=25
Quality_prec=16
eclPasses=3i only change the number of eclpasses(2 or 3 and will try 4).

now comparing with your :
[CCEOptions]
VBR_bias=0
Quality_prec=32
eclPasses=3why you adjust this values and what advantages you get? :confused:
this adjusts of VBR_bias=0 and Quality_prec=32 can't give issues in the final size?

thanks for any clarification.

[winny]

Have you reported it to Cinemacraft support as an encoder specific bug?

[magic144]

hi guys

I've just noticed the movie you're talking about is THE SKELETON KEY

I had what I thought was an undersized RB backup of this a while back
(the backup was a coupla hundred MB shorter than usual)

in THIS PARTICULAR case, if I remember rightly, the quality was basically already at the maximum, hence the CCE output was smaller than the original!

please checkout my original posted thread here:-
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=102862

and aaron10's explanation here on CCE and Q values:-
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=102862

hope this helps

[apfraats]

@raquete:

Simple explanation:

VBR=0 gives MAXIMUM VBR.

As I never notice problems in low-demanding scenes, I want to create MAXIMUM HEADROOM for HIGH DEMANDING SCENS.

As you raise youre VBR_BIAS, bits are lost because CCE is tempered in dynamically assigment of BITRATE, so theoraticaaly bitrate is wasted.

The higher VBR_BIAS the more bitrate is wasted on places were it isn't needed and finally you even get FULL CBR, and then youre demanding scenes are lost for ever in blocking pictures.

To get the most OPTIMAL distrubution, I use FULL VBR, spending EVERY BIT on parts where they needed, and NOT wasting one on parts where they are NOT needed. That's to be short.

Towards QUALITY I have to say I have NOT NOTICED much difference between 0 or 64. Maybe it's visible at very LOW BITRATES, but I don't use very low bitrates, then I split the movie up.

So having not noticed differences, I simply set it between maximum and minimum setting in the middle, assuming it will be ok. Most of the time you see people use lower values, but as I even not see differences at my usual bitrates (depending on source, but usually split when movie is about 3 hours, keeping only 5.1 DD soundtrack), I set it at the middle value.

The only very important settings are VBR_BIAS=0 and MIN_BITRATE=0, as this will greatly improve movie quality as more difficult bitrates (lower onces) are to be used.

@MAGIC144

Thanks a lot, although this doens't explain why 2.66 does CORRECTLY finish the job. As long as there is no CBR at maximum bitrate, there is always room for extra bitrate.......

But I think it indeed has to do something with the encoder charisteristics as 2.70 has a new engine.

2.66 works fine, PROVING THERE IS ROOM FOR EXTRA BITRATE !!!!

(otherwise it won't result in the 4.35 GB).


There must be some strange fenomenia here, as all others DVD's (5 pieces) came out just fine using 2.70.2.4 .


So if youre not at FULL CBR MAXIMUM BITRATE, the encoder can always use the extra room for extra bits, but maybe I'm wrong. 2.66 is able to fill the CCETARGETSECTORS however.....
2.70.2.4 is not in this case, but glad to hear THE SKELETON KEY resulted in undersizing in youre case too.
Probably some weird circumstances together here.....

One thing to try is using a higher VBR_BIAS and see what happens......

Sure worth a try...

Thanks for the info, I feel a lot more assured now !

[Mr. Monte]

Every thing has it's plus and minus's...so my qurstion is this:

Whats the Pro and Cons of adjusting the VBR BIAS from the default (25) and the Qual Pre (16)?

You state above setting the VBR BIAS to ) is all VBR, less CBR and will allow more bits to demanding scenes..o.k..as a novice..I might believe that..but whats the drawback?

What about Qual Prec?

TIA

[jdobbs]

Adjusting the VBR bias down will create a higher likelihood of blockiness in black and fading scenes (disadvantage) while allocating more bandwidth to the high demand scenes (advantage). It also makes the stream more volatile (greater bitrate swings), which has been reported to cause problems on some players (although I can't name one).

Adjusting Qual_Prec decides whether to apply more of the available bandwidth toward complicated images (like say, the leaves on a tree) or flat areas (like the gradual color changes of a sunset). Reducing it also reduces mosquito noise on sharp edges -- but increases the "rainbow effect" in gradual color changes.

The default settings are set as they are because they have been tested and determined to have the best picture across the largest spectrum of picture types. They are a good balance.

As for minimum bitrate... the lower the setting, the better the use of available bits (advantage), but the higher the liklihood of creating a picture that may have problems on some players. The new default (300Kbs) is set at that amount because it is not know to cause problems on any players -- but keeps the bitrate for low demand scenes (like black or low motion pictures) at a reasonably low level.

[apfraats]

I don't get the low bitrate problem at all.....

Why not ???

Simple.

A lot of commercial DVD's have black parts in thier beginning or between fading scenes. And then I can PROVE the min_bitrate goes even down to below 200 bits/sec !!!!

Seen the fact these are commercial available DVD's, there should be NO reason not to lower MIN_BITRATE.

I have had NO trouble with these DVD's on whatever DVD-player I use, even not on Sony players :D

I will search for the lowest bitrate I can find on a commercial rip and report it.

Bitrate-viewer can be used for this, as far as I understood it, it can only give higher readings then the TRUE FACTS, and not lower readings.

Even POWERDVD goes down to below 200 Kbps at longer totally black images, but this is a very unpredictable way to measure.

Then I have a DVD-PLAYER that reports VIDEO-bitrate as POWER-DVD , but much more accurate (frequenter updates).

I'll see what I can find.


And for the demultiplexer there is ALWAYS an audio track, that's has a nominal bitrate depending on format. This will almost per definition solve a 0 bitrate problem.


ADDITION: I have a DVD KINSEY that has a black part 25-29 seconds and the bitrate here is 'just' 204. So this is already pretty low, from a commercial R2 PAL DVD.

THE GODFATHER I have done at 58% compression, the result has levels of 172 bits/sec. No problem on players I tried. One old Sony, one new Sony, one Philips, 1 Targa.

It really looks that there is no problem here otherwise than the use maybe of specific versions of encoders that produce 'dirt' at very low bitrate. As HC doesn't honor minimum bitrate it would be nice to hear from hank what the minimum produced bitrate theoratically could be........

[raquete]

i tend to agree with you in your last post and here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=761180#post761180) where you posted Never had this issue.
some old members here can remeber the problems with low "min-bitrate" because it happens when you're doing....mix this low resolutions :
vcds,cvds,svcds and some X(tranges)??cds (with low/limited max bitrate)...mix this together with old and bad matrices,old encoders versions and too much filters to get compression.don't forget mix with the (some bad)quality of the old standalones that don't like low bitrates....old avisynth versions and some more.(bad english,can't find words to explain better)
compression and perfect final size was the target in the past and not cool quality(we still read posts where some members want to put 3, 4 or more movies in one single media :scared: they will always get one economic trash imo)

i'm doing slow tests using min_bitate from 500 to zero (now with 200) for more than a week(or 2) and i don't have problems.(in my old standalone that don't like svcds with less than 300 in min_bitrate,run perfectly dvds with 200...still testing ;) )

i can't trust that dvd-rb can give this issues because the whole programs running new versions of all(filters,avisynth,encoders,etc) and rb use everything new as possible for dvds targets!

the issues with low min_bitrate is now history,are in our old encodes and "still alive" for who expect crazy miracles like 3 or 4 big movies in one single dvd media.

:thanks: (excuse poor english)

HNY for all!

[dragongodz]

Never had this issue
tend to agree with you
how nice. so now its "i dont have the problem so its no longer real or true". so you guys can guarentee that will be so for everyone and on all dvd players current and future can you ?

Bitrate-viewer can be used for this, as far as I understood it, it can only give higher readings then the TRUE FACTS, and not lower readings.
actually bitrateviewer constantly gives me lower than real values so i nolonger use it.

apfraats - may i suggest to completely read threads you start before saying the same things.

And for the demultiplexer there is ALWAYS an audio track, that's has a nominal bitrate depending on format. This will almost per definition solve a 0 bitrate problem.
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=755541#post755541

As HC doesn't honor minimum bitrate it would be nice to hear from hank what the minimum produced bitrate theoratically could be
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=755603#post755603

both answers taken from http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=104178&page=1&pp=20
which you started.

[jdobbs]

I'd just comment that if anyone is having good luck with any setting -- feel free to stick to it. The reason the settings are there is so you can use them.

You have to realize, though, that the product defaults have to be conservative so they work for the widest audience and with the widest range of sources. If you individually set it low and it has no problem -- that's the end of it -- you're happy, and if you have a problem or run into a source that looks bad -- you'll just change it back.

If the default is set too low, though -- and a few thousand people try it... I guarantee someone will have problems with it -- and I'm the one who will get the e-mails with the complaints.

The defaults are the best settings for most people, on most discs, under most circumstances.

[dragongodz]

If you individually set it low and it has no problem -- that's the end of it -- you're happy, and if you have a problem or run into a source that looks bad -- you'll just change it back.
and may i add - you wont complain about DVD-RB if you do have a problem by changing it to a non default value. :sly:

If the default is set too low, though -- and a few thousand people try it... I guarantee someone will have problems with it -- and I'm the one who will get the e-mails with the complaints.
very true and what people tend to forget. i am sure you get frustrated enough reading emails and posts where people are using everything default without adding ones where people have been playing with things aswell. ;)

[Mr. Monte]

Dragon,

While I respect you and jdobbs and MANY others here..for me anyway...I am just not content with if it works and looks good..leave it. I aspire to learn and make things the best I can..even if I can;t "see" the result difference...but it can be proved with tools.

Isn't that why some of the defaults have changed since DVD-RB 0.01 (joke..first ever release)?

Isn't that why Rockas and Feedback, Shark and many others have like 50 or more Matrices for different bitrates and different material?

Our backup's might look fine now on this TV..but what if we get a 500 inch SED super-duper-out-of-this-world Monitor..(another joke)..IOW is there anything wrong with asking what these different settings would do if you di this?..or that..and what would be the downfall?

No I know...some would say..well move that slider and try it yourself...O.k..and it might look fine to me..but a more authoritve figure with a better grasp on the subject coudl look at my "clips" with whatever tools they use and say..but your I_Frames are low and the B-Frames are unstable and the bitrates are this..etc..etc..

I hope you understand some of what I am trying to get across to everyone in this thread..I love DVD-RB...matter of fact I has donated more than once..it awesome and I feel I have progressed from the "one-click" world of only using DVDShrink..alot because of this forum...but I want to continue to progress...without having a masters in A/V.

Thanks to jdobbs for his great explaination of the two sliders.

Thanks to all

[raquete]

how nice and still.newbys can't joke with advanced users but....i read your signature. :p
why that big resistence for new ideas and tests?!?!? if and when someone get problems with this "adjusts" will post it faster i can trust!
quoting your own words (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=755541#post755541) as i remember it was mentioned long ago that when the minimum video bitrate was below about 300....
now myself: the issues with low min_bitrate is now history,are in our old encodes... if you search i'm right that you always will get issues with low min_bitrates in old threads doing svcds,vcds,etc(i posted the reasons)
:thanks:

I'd just comment that if anyone is having good luck with any setting -- feel free to stick to it. The reason the settings are there is so you can use them. great developer create great program and is open to news. :thanks:

...your last post... :thanks:
great post!

[dragongodz]

I am just not content with if it works and looks good..leave it. I aspire to learn and make things the best I can.
and you have the ability to do that already. however suggestions that it(min bitrate) should be changed to 0 since most people dont have a problem is a different thing. especially where there have been cases of both players and certain versions of CCE(for example) that have had a problem with it.

if you search i'm right that you always will get issues with low min_bitrates in old threads doing svcds,vcds,etc(i posted the reasons)
and it has been a problem with dvds aswell not just vcd/svcd. ever think that maybe its older threads may be because we know about the problem so try to avoid it ? for example hank315's min bitrate hard coded etc.

so to end from me, as said several times now - you can already change settings such as min bitrate so go ahead if you wish. however please do not say just because you dont have a problem others wont either and dont complain there is a problem with DVD-RB from any problems caused by changing such settings that cant be reproduced with the default settings aswell.

[HKT3020_1]

@Jdobbs

I just recently encoded Toy Story R1 10th Anniversary Edition DVD and the output was smaller than usual. At times I would get 4.31-4.33GB but today for some odd reason it came at 3.73GB. I had backed up a season disc prior to backing up Toy Story and that came out fine at 4.33GB. Any suggestions, I have DVD-RB at thier default settings. The only setting that was altered was the VBR Bias set to 20. :rolleyes:

Here is the log, if it'll help. :D

[10:05:37] Phase I, PREPARATION started.
- CCE SP 2.70.2.4 encoder selected.
- VTS_01: 2,285,486 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V & .AVS files
-- Processed 116,027 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- Reduction Level for DVD-5: 92.4%
- Overall Bitrate : 8,304/6,643Kbs
- Space for Video : 3,924,190KB
- HIGH/LOW/TYPICAL Bitrates: 6,926/1,864/6,643 Kbs
[10:09:00] Phase I, PREPARATION completed in 4 minutes.
[10:09:00] Phase II ENCODING started
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 0
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 1
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 2
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 3
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 4
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 5
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 6
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 7
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 8
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 9
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 10
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 11
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 12
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 13
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 14
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 15
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 16
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 17
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 18
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 19
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 20
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 21
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 22
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 23
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 24
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 25
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 26
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 27
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 28
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 29
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 30
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 31
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 32
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 33
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 34
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 35
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 36
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 37
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 38
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 39
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 40
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 41
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 42
[11:02:12] Phase II ENCODING completed in 53 minutes.
[11:02:12] Phase III, REBUILD started.
- Copying IFO, BUP, and unaltered files...
- Processing VTS_01
- Reading/processing TMAP table...
- Rebuilding seg 0 VOBID 1 CELLID 1
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_01
- Rebuilding seg 1 VOBID 2 CELLID 1
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_02
- Rebuilding seg 2 VOBID 3 CELLID 1
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_03
- Rebuilding seg 3 VOBID 4 CELLID 1
- Rebuilding seg 4 VOBID 4 CELLID 2
- Rebuilding seg 5 VOBID 4 CELLID 3
- Rebuilding seg 6 VOBID 4 CELLID 4
- Rebuilding seg 7 VOBID 4 CELLID 5
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_04
- Rebuilding seg 8 VOBID 5 CELLID 1
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_05
- Rebuilding seg 9 VOBID 6 CELLID 1
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_06
- Rebuilding seg 10 VOBID 7 CELLID 1
- Rebuilding seg 11 VOBID 7 CELLID 2
- Rebuilding seg 12 VOBID 7 CELLID 3
- Rebuilding seg 13 VOBID 7 CELLID 4
- Rebuilding seg 14 VOBID 7 CELLID 5
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_07
- Rebuilding seg 15 VOBID 8 CELLID 1
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_08
- Rebuilding seg 16 VOBID 9 CELLID 1
- Rebuilding seg 17 VOBID 9 CELLID 2
- Rebuilding seg 18 VOBID 9 CELLID 3
- Rebuilding seg 19 VOBID 9 CELLID 4
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_09
- Rebuilding seg 20 VOBID 10 CELLID 1
- Rebuilding seg 21 VOBID 10 CELLID 2
- Rebuilding seg 22 VOBID 10 CELLID 3
- Rebuilding seg 23 VOBID 10 CELLID 4
- Rebuilding seg 24 VOBID 10 CELLID 5
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_10
- Rebuilding seg 25 VOBID 11 CELLID 1
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_11
- Rebuilding seg 26 VOBID 12 CELLID 1
- Rebuilding seg 27 VOBID 12 CELLID 2
- Rebuilding seg 28 VOBID 12 CELLID 3
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_12
- Rebuilding seg 29 VOBID 13 CELLID 1
- Rebuilding seg 30 VOBID 13 CELLID 2
- Rebuilding seg 31 VOBID 13 CELLID 3
- Rebuilding seg 32 VOBID 13 CELLID 4
- Rebuilding seg 33 VOBID 13 CELLID 5
- Rebuilding seg 34 VOBID 13 CELLID 6
- Rebuilding seg 35 VOBID 13 CELLID 7
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_13
- Rebuilding seg 36 VOBID 14 CELLID 1
- Rebuilding seg 37 VOBID 14 CELLID 2
- Rebuilding seg 38 VOBID 14 CELLID 3
- Rebuilding seg 39 VOBID 14 CELLID 4
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_14
- Rebuilding seg 40 VOBID 15 CELLID 1
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_15
- Rebuilding seg 41 VOBID 16 CELLID 1
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_16
- Rebuilding seg 42 VOBID 17 CELLID 1
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_17
- Updated VTS_C_ADT.
- Updated VTS_VOBU_ADMAP.
- Updated IFO: VTS_01_0.IFO
- Updating TMAP table...
- Correcting VTS Sectors...
[11:11:52] Phase III, REBUILD completed in 9 minutes.

Done.
[11:11:52] PREPARE/ENCODE/REBUILD completed in 66 min.

[jptheripper]

since it only took 66 minutes, would you mind doing the exact same thing without changing the bias? that way we could rule it out.

also, was this a 1pass or 2

[apfraats]

I started this thread because I had the same problem ESPECIALLY USING 2.7.2.X encoder version. Of course, as usual (I'm used to that now :) ), some said it was me and just me again.....and did 80000+ DVD's without problems...

Sure if you try a 2.66/2.67.0.10 release, it is fixed again.

Hower since I started the post, more reports of undersizing using 2.7x.xx.xx were comming in in special cases.

I already said that in the same environment, the use of the 'older' version solves the undersizing problem seen and lukely noticed by others using 2.70.X.X versions.

That's weird isn't it ???

Sure DVD-RB does do the right calculations, because I suspect them NOT TO BE VERSION DEPENDENT as far as it concerns encoder versions.

It's just a sign CCE 2.70.x.x probably has a glitch somewhere somehow.

What I call now 'the CCE 2.70 undersizing bug' seems to happen in cicumstances were following two basic facts are true:

1) Compression level is pretty low, so percentage is high => 90%.
2) Average bitrate is high >= 5000 kbps.


Just try 2.66/2.67 and the problem will be gone (pleasse don't kill me if it doesn't :) !)

I set up different encoder versions in one directory such as:

CCTSPT2670010.EXE (for CCE 2.67.0.10)
CCTSPT2700204.EXE (for CCE 2.70.2.4)

and you can easily compare the version specific behaviour.

I have already tried a full 100% cpmpression and a problem discs, and it even came out significantly smaller in size...... (adjusting CCETARGETSECTOR to very high oversized value, forcing DVD-RB to run at 100% compression).

Even setting MAX_BITRATE to 9000 didn't solve the problem.

So, I think it's CCE 2.70x specific and NOT DVD-RB's fault.

But maybe, just maybe, JDOBBS can find an answer for this problem, studying it at low level with the same source input.

I did a already MOVIE ONLY prepared disk (prepared with DVDSHRINK) from THE SKELETON KEY R2 PAL , and have experienced the precise same problem.

If you have signifivcant udersizing, you can raise youre CCETARGETSECTORS, but you risk at comming to a 100% compression level and DVD-RB is going to adjust it's TARGETSECTORS downwards to get same size as input size, but this will result in undersizing again.....

So there are two alternatives as far as I've seen:

1) Use 2.67.0.10 or so to do the backup, it will prob. come out ok in size.
2) Live with the undersizing you get at 100% compression level by raising CCETARGETSECTORS temporarely for that DVD.

Nothing else seems to work untill now....

[jptheripper]

"prepared with DVDSHRINK"

why are people doing this? is dvd-rb's movie only mode not working?

[HKT3020_1]

Well jptheripper, I went ahead and took your suggestion and ran it again (2-Passes) with DVD-RB's default values and once again it came out exactly as before 3.73GB. :confused: The picture quality looks good and I'll burn it regardless but was just wondering why this was happening.

[17:01:35] Phase I, PREPARATION started.
- CCE SP 2.70.2.4 encoder selected.
- VTS_01: 2,285,486 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V & .AVS files
-- Processed 116,027 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- Reduction Level for DVD-5: 92.4%
- Overall Bitrate : 8,304/6,643Kbs
- Space for Video : 3,924,190KB
- HIGH/LOW/TYPICAL Bitrates: 6,926/1,864/6,643 Kbs
[17:05:11] Phase I, PREPARATION completed in 4 minutes.
[17:05:11] Phase II ENCODING started
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 0
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 1
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 2
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 3
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 4
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 5
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 6
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 7
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 8
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 9
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 10
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 11
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 12
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 13
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 14
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 15
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 16
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 17
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 18
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 19
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 20
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 21
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 22
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 23
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 24
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 25
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 26
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 27
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 28
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 29
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 30
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 31
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 32
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 33
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 34
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 35
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 36
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 37
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 38
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 39
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 40
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 41
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 42
[18:00:29] Phase II ENCODING completed in 55 minutes.
[18:00:29] Phase III, REBUILD started.
- Copying IFO, BUP, and unaltered files...
- Processing VTS_01
- Reading/processing TMAP table...
- Rebuilding seg 0 VOBID 1 CELLID 1
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_01
- Rebuilding seg 1 VOBID 2 CELLID 1
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_02
- Rebuilding seg 2 VOBID 3 CELLID 1
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_03
- Rebuilding seg 3 VOBID 4 CELLID 1
- Rebuilding seg 4 VOBID 4 CELLID 2
- Rebuilding seg 5 VOBID 4 CELLID 3
- Rebuilding seg 6 VOBID 4 CELLID 4
- Rebuilding seg 7 VOBID 4 CELLID 5
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_04
- Rebuilding seg 8 VOBID 5 CELLID 1
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_05
- Rebuilding seg 9 VOBID 6 CELLID 1
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_06
- Rebuilding seg 10 VOBID 7 CELLID 1
- Rebuilding seg 11 VOBID 7 CELLID 2
- Rebuilding seg 12 VOBID 7 CELLID 3
- Rebuilding seg 13 VOBID 7 CELLID 4
- Rebuilding seg 14 VOBID 7 CELLID 5
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_07
- Rebuilding seg 15 VOBID 8 CELLID 1
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_08
- Rebuilding seg 16 VOBID 9 CELLID 1
- Rebuilding seg 17 VOBID 9 CELLID 2
- Rebuilding seg 18 VOBID 9 CELLID 3
- Rebuilding seg 19 VOBID 9 CELLID 4
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_09
- Rebuilding seg 20 VOBID 10 CELLID 1
- Rebuilding seg 21 VOBID 10 CELLID 2
- Rebuilding seg 22 VOBID 10 CELLID 3
- Rebuilding seg 23 VOBID 10 CELLID 4
- Rebuilding seg 24 VOBID 10 CELLID 5
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_10
- Rebuilding seg 25 VOBID 11 CELLID 1
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_11
- Rebuilding seg 26 VOBID 12 CELLID 1
- Rebuilding seg 27 VOBID 12 CELLID 2
- Rebuilding seg 28 VOBID 12 CELLID 3
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_12
- Rebuilding seg 29 VOBID 13 CELLID 1
- Rebuilding seg 30 VOBID 13 CELLID 2
- Rebuilding seg 31 VOBID 13 CELLID 3
- Rebuilding seg 32 VOBID 13 CELLID 4
- Rebuilding seg 33 VOBID 13 CELLID 5
- Rebuilding seg 34 VOBID 13 CELLID 6
- Rebuilding seg 35 VOBID 13 CELLID 7
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_13
- Rebuilding seg 36 VOBID 14 CELLID 1
- Rebuilding seg 37 VOBID 14 CELLID 2
- Rebuilding seg 38 VOBID 14 CELLID 3
- Rebuilding seg 39 VOBID 14 CELLID 4
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_14
- Rebuilding seg 40 VOBID 15 CELLID 1
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_15
- Rebuilding seg 41 VOBID 16 CELLID 1
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_16
- Rebuilding seg 42 VOBID 17 CELLID 1
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_17
- Updated VTS_C_ADT.
- Updated VTS_VOBU_ADMAP.
- Updated IFO: VTS_01_0.IFO
- Updating TMAP table...
- Correcting VTS Sectors...
[18:10:21] Phase III, REBUILD completed in 10 minutes.

Done.
[18:10:21] PREPARE/ENCODE/REBUILD completed in 69 min.

[jptheripper]

for two passes it just seems so fast.. but since you video looks good (so it isnt an avisynth error) something else is going on.

the only other thing i noticed is the bitrates are very very high, the video must be very short. You may have maxed out your q value

[therat]

Maybe the undersizing has to do with the particular DVD. I am using DVDRB 1.05.2 with CCE 2.70.2.0 and i just finished backing up a dvd I created of a TV concert.

The original DVD was created by DVDAuthor and was 5.5gigs in sze. DVD-RB created a nice backup 4.31 gigs in size.

I have all settings set to default

[jdobbs]

Unfortunately if it undersizes the problem would have to be within CCE, which is out of my control.

[raquete]

"prepared with DVDSHRINK"

why are people doing this? is dvd-rb's movie only mode not working?

for RB free version users.

[Cropsy]

I started this thread because I had the same problem ESPECIALLY USING 2.7.2.X encoder version. Of course, as usual (I'm used to that now :) ), some said it was me and just me again.....and did 80000+ DVD's without problems...



If this is ment for me I just have to say that I was not hostile nor did I brag about my 800-900 encodes. I just said that I believe that some discs may come out undersized for some reason I don't understand. Maybe that's just the way it is. I have never said anything about "it is only you".

Just wanted to clear the air:D

[Boulder]

Would it be possible that the encoder actually saturated and couldn't use more bits?

[winny]

For the Toy Story example above which audio tracks are being kept? I'm intrigued why the available size for video is so high.

- Reduction Level for DVD-5: 92.4%
- Overall Bitrate : 8,304/6,643Kbs
- Space for Video : 3,924,190KB
- HIGH/LOW/TYPICAL Bitrates: 6,926/1,864/6,643 Kbs

Reducing 3,924,190 by 92.4% is not far off your final output size if there were no audio tracks.

[jdobbs]

Would it be possible that the encoder actually saturated and couldn't use more bits?Not only possible -- but highly probable. 6,600Kbs is a LOT of bandwidth. CCE will not add bitrate for the sake of bitrate. When it maxes out you have to assume that the Q is so low that adding more won't help.