Rotk See

[mezzanine]

What settings do you guys recommend for backing-up LOTR ROTK SEE PAL? (Bitrate is around 4100 on dual-layer DVD-R)
I was thinking:
quantizer characteristics 24
vbr bias 30
fox home entertainment matrix
4-pass
max bitrate:8500

[random asshat]

I'm currently doing the R1 of that to two single layers:

I think I might be doing a bit more pre-processing than you, as
my D1 is ~4290 , and D2 seems to only need the fan credits & regular
credits re-encoded with the rest kept from original vobs.

I used slighty lower vbr bias & Q. Char than you, but those look fine to me.
The max bitrate in cells varied from 5500 -> 7900, but again this is the R1.

I extracted the matrix used in the original vobs to do my encoding with, it is
a few shades "looser" than the Fox/Warner matrixes.

LOTR - ROTK EE R1 . MTX

08 08 10 11 13 14 15 17
08 08 11 12 14 15 17 19
10 11 13 14 15 17 17 19
11 11 13 14 15 17 19 20
11 13 14 15 16 18 20 24
13 14 15 16 18 20 24 29
13 14 15 17 19 23 28 35
14 15 18 19 23 28 35 42
08 09 09 10 10 11 11 12
09 09 10 10 11 11 12 12
09 10 10 11 11 12 12 13
10 10 11 11 12 12 13 14
10 11 11 12 13 13 14 14
11 11 12 12 13 14 14 15
11 12 12 13 14 14 15 16
12 12 13 14 14 15 16 17


Cheers.

[mezzanine]

Thanks for posting. How did you extract the matrix from the movie ?

[manono]

Hi-

LOTR-ROTK uses the Standard Matrix with AQ turned on. It uses 3 different matrices, the Standard Matrix, the Standard Matrix with the numbers cut in half (the one random asshat posted, perhaps gotten by checking a vob in ReStream), and the Standard Matrix with the numbers quartered. This is the R1 EE version.

One way to get the matrices used is to open a Vob in DGIndex. If you don't want to check the whole thing, then use [ and ] to isolate a portion of the Vob. In Options, check Log Quant Matrices, and then File->Save Project. It'll create a quants.txt file with them inside. It doesn't use the Standard matrix very often, so a small sample may not show it, especially if that sample has very little action.

[mezzanine]

Thanks for the info manono. Is there an encoder that supports AQ ?

[manono]

Yes, recent versions of CCE.

Edit: Had to check my manual. You have to uncheck the box that says "Disable Adaptive Q-Matrix Switching" in the Advanced Video Settings area. I'm using some version of CCE 2.70.

[random asshat]

Thanks for posting. How did you extract the matrix from the movie ?

One way to get the matrices used is to open a Vob in DGIndex..

Exact-a-mundo, open a few of the middle vobs ie: (VTS_01_2, VTS_01_3)
in DGindex and log those Q.'s :)

[mezzanine]

Yes, recent versions of CCE.

Edit: Had to check my manual. You have to uncheck the box that says "Disable Adaptive Q-Matrix Switching" in the Advanced Video Settings area. I'm using some version of CCE 2.70.

So when uncheking that option what matrix should i use, the best one(*) and it will automatically scale the values depending on bitrate, motion ?


Would an avisynth script with conditional filtering help, i was thinking something like:
slow motion: idct=4
medium motion: idct=5
high motion: idct=6, cpu=4

Thanks for the info


(*)
Intra Luma and Chroma Matrix:
8 8 8 8 9 9 10 10
8 8 8 9 9 10 10 12
8 8 8 9 10 10 12 12
8 9 9 9 10 12 12 14
9 9 9 10 11 12 14 16
9 10 10 11 12 14 16 19
10 10 12 12 14 16 19 23
10 12 12 14 16 19 23 25

NonIntra Luma and Chroma Matrix:
8 8 8 8 8 9 9 9
8 8 8 8 9 9 9 9
8 8 8 9 9 9 9 10
8 8 9 9 9 9 10 10
8 9 9 9 9 10 10 10
9 9 9 9 10 10 10 11
9 9 9 10 10 10 11 11
9 9 10 10 10 11 11 11

[mezzanine]

Ok these are the three matrices used in LOTR - ROTK EE PAL (for archiving)

Intra Luma and Chroma Matrix:
8 8 8 8 9 9 10 10
8 8 8 9 9 10 10 12
8 8 8 9 10 10 12 12
8 9 9 9 10 12 12 14
9 9 9 10 11 12 14 16
9 10 10 11 12 14 16 19
10 10 12 12 14 16 19 23
10 12 12 14 16 19 23 25

NonIntra Luma and Chroma Matrix:
8 8 8 8 8 9 9 9
8 8 8 8 9 9 9 9
8 8 8 9 9 9 9 10
8 8 9 9 9 9 10 10
8 9 9 9 9 10 10 10
9 9 9 9 10 10 10 11
9 9 9 10 10 10 11 11
9 9 10 10 10 11 11 11

Intra Luma and Chroma Matrix:
8 8 9 11 13 13 14 17
8 8 11 12 13 14 17 18
9 11 13 13 14 17 17 16
11 11 13 13 13 17 18 20
11 13 13 13 16 17 20 24
13 13 13 16 17 20 24 29
13 14 15 17 19 23 28 34
13 15 17 19 23 28 34 41

NonIntra Luma and Chroma Matrix:
8 8 8 9 9 9 9 10
8 8 9 9 9 9 10 10
8 9 9 9 9 10 10 10
9 9 9 9 10 10 10 10
9 9 9 10 10 10 10 11
9 9 10 10 10 10 11 11
9 10 10 10 10 11 11 11
10 10 10 10 11 11 11 12

Intra Luma and Chroma Matrix:
10 10 10 10 11 11 12 12
10 10 10 11 11 12 12 20
10 10 11 11 12 12 20 23
10 11 11 12 12 20 23 24
11 11 12 12 23 23 24 24
11 12 19 22 23 25 24 26
12 19 22 23 24 24 30 35
18 22 23 24 24 26 35 45

NonIntra Luma and Chroma Matrix:
10 10 10 14 14 16 16 16
10 10 12 14 16 16 16 17
10 12 12 14 16 16 17 17
14 14 14 16 16 17 17 18
14 16 16 16 16 17 18 20
16 16 16 16 17 18 20 20
16 16 17 17 17 18 20 20
16 17 17 17 18 20 20 23


Now according to cce 2.70 "Cinema Craft Encoder SP automati-
cally creates other matrices cutting the value of each element in the
matrices by half, quarter and so on, and applies another one to pro-
duce a much lower distortion for much higher bitrate." So selecting the third matrix should do the job.

[manono]

Oh, your PAL version has completely different matrices than does the R1 NTSC.

So when uncheking that option what matrix should i use, the best one(*) and it will automatically scale the values depending on bitrate, motion ?
As I understand it, you start with an average matrix (the worst one, not the best one), such as the Standard Matrix. Depending on how well the film compresses, and how much you're compressing compared to the original retail version, the "worst" matrix will get used during complex scenes, and it will allow their compression without the "distortion" as mentioned in the manual, or put another way, without the artifacting that might occur when the bitrate bumps up against the max bitrate you set, and the average quant might skyrocket otherwise. Then the 2 better matrices (the ones with the numbers halved and quartered) will be used in the medium complex and static scenes. This will give the low motion scenes the best, most detailed quality, and the complex scenes somewhat worse quality, when it's difficult for the eye to tell that they might not look as good as the other less complex scenes. That's my take on it anyway.

You can use AQ with any matrix as the "base", but you don't want that "base" matrix to be too good. Also, when using AQ, I wouldn't try and get away with too few passes. It takes some extra passes for the matrix optimizations to take place, I think. Using Adaptive Q-Matrix Switching makes it unnecessary for you to use conditional filtering, as that's pretty much what it does anyway. Using AQ can be quite a good idea I think, if you don't want to go through the hassle of trying to figure out the best single matrix for a movie. Beginning about a year ago (the R1 LOTR-ROTK-EE is the oldest DVD I've seen it used), many Hollywood movie DVDs have started to use the Standard Matrix with AQ.

By the way, although all DVD players are supposed to handle AQ with no problems, not all of them do. You might test with a movie, and check it thoroughly in your player before switching permanently, if that's your plan.

[mezzanine]

You might test with a movie, and check it thoroughly in your player before switching permanently, if that's your plan.

Thanks for your help manono, i suppose since the player has no problems with the original dvd that uses aq it shouldn't have with the back-up either.

For my avisynth script I'll be using the reference-ieee dct with no deblocking and cropping - and adding black borders for best compression (does this really make a difference?).

I'll get back to you with the results.

[omega6666]

I know DVD-RB Pro has the possibility to link specific matrices to segments which have an avg. bitrate between 2000-3000 and <2000. I believe it is also possible to link specific matrices to the main movie and to the extra's (as long as they don't fall within the named avg. bitrates, I guess?). But is this what you would refer to as being some type of AQ?

If not, do any of you guys know if it is possible to activate AQ in DVD-RB [edit:] Pro?