Pre-processing causing problems with Sony DVD Player

[Sandman78]

I've used CloneDVD for forever to pre-process and it has and does work flawlessly. However recently I found that if I use the "scissors" in CloneDVD to remove the credits or "next episode preview" chapters (on episode DVD's)... then run thru DVDRB.... the end result will not play in my Sony DVP-NS315. The disc continuously jumps from what looks like chapter to chapter. However, the disc will play in my LG LDA-511 and all my other DVD players fine.

FWIW, if I were to go ahead and let CloneDVD transcode the movie after altering the chapters, and not run it thru DVDRB, the end result DOES play in my Sony.

Like I said above, you can use CloneDVD to remove titles, menu, audio tracks, etc.., then run thru DVDRB and the sony will play the disc fine. It's only when you use the "scissors" function to "trim" chapters from titles that my Sony has a problem with it after running thru DVDRB. The only reason I caught the problem was because one day last week I tested one of the discs in my Sony and discovered the problem. I don't know if it is the Sony's problem or what, but I do use Sony players sometimes... so I looked back at the discs I had backed up this way and it ended up only being about 10 that I had to redo. Luckily I had only recently started experimenting with trimming chapters.

I've since tested 5 other discs, because it would be great if I could trim chapters, and the problem always exists in the Sony if I trim chapters with CloneDVD. I know pre-processing isn't supported, but I just wanted to post my experience with this, because it might be something simple to fix. I'm a registered Pro user and the version I'm using now is Pro v1.04.(problem also existed when using DVDRB Pro v1.03) CloneDVD Version is 2.8.5.1

I have the DVDRB log and inf. files for a couple of these discs if they would help at all.

Thanks

[writersblock29]

This really isn't a DVD Rebuilder problem, though; it sounds as if the problem lies within the methods used by CloneDVD to trim sections off of VOBs. This is why Jdobbs has asked that one tries a problem disk without pre-processing in order to see if the "bug" (in quotation marks because not all errors are really bugs) is caused by Rebuilder. In this case, it doesn't sound like it is -- which ties Jdobbs' hands, since his ability to fix problems is limmited to his own program. It's cool that you've already considered this... but I can guarantee this point will pop up repeatedly in replies posted in answer to your post.

You might try running the trimmed projects through PGCEdit to see if you can detect any errors that can then be fixed before opening these files with Rebuilder, and maybe even notify the makers of CloneDVD (perhaps via customer support, which *should* be availible on their website) just in case there's something here that they can fix (it may wind up preventing another user from having similiar problems down the line... who knows?). Link for PGCEdit's below:

http://www.videohelp.com/~r0lZ/pgcedit/beta/PgcEdit_winexe_0.6.3beta4.zip

Good luck on this!

[Harrysmiith]

I agree that this is probably not a DVDRB problem. Also based upon my experience of SONY and your own reports I would say SONY is at fault.

Have you tried to do the same thing with Shrink ? It should be fairly easy to cut off bits are the begining and end and to then make an uncompressed ISO. load into Daemon tools and then to DVD Rebuilder.

[Sandman78]

writersblock29, I sent the above post (little different version) to CloneDVD's support a couple days ago. I actually edited that email for my post here. I'm also going to post something about it over in the CloneDVD forum at CDFreaks. Either way I know it's an issue that CloneDVD or Sony can easily say is caused by "the other guy", so I'm not going to attempt to fight that battle. Just going to send them what was happening for me and hope the right person reads it at some point and possibly fixes it. I posted my experience here mainly so other users who possibly are having this problem will know what was causing it for me and won't scratching their heads trying to figure it out.

As far as trying a disc without pre-processing to see if DVDRB has any problems with it.... if you see in my first post, the output from DVDRB works perfectly with pre-processed discs from CloneDVD as long as you don't "trim" chapters from Titles. Example--> take "Disc X" and use CloneDVD to remove titles (FBI screen, trailers, etc..), audio tracks, or subtitles... run thru DVDRB and output works perfect on Sony. But if you take "Disc X" and "trim" chapters from a title... run thru DVDRB... the output will not play on my Sony DVP-NS315, but WILL play in my other DVD Players fine.

Thanks for the PGCedit link. Could you tell me if that program will actually notify me of errors, or will I have to be able to recognize them? I ask this because I'm not the greatest with DVD Layouts, IFO files, etc..

Thanks

[Sandman78]

I agree that this is probably not a DVDRB problem. Also based upon my experience of SONY and your own reports I would say SONY is at fault.

Have you tried to do the same thing with Shrink ? It should be fairly easy to cut off bits are the begining and end and to then make an uncompressed ISO. load into Daemon tools and then to DVD Rebuilder.

From other posts I've read , it seems other users have also had problems with Sony dvd players and other issues. I guess the Sony's are picky?

I haven't tried Shrink yet because I like to keep the menu. DVDRemake and Vobblanker are other options I might try.

[writersblock29]

@Sandman78

PGCEdit will chew on your material once you've loaded it, and most of the time comes up with error messages right off the bat (if it's going to find something wrong, that is). Most of my use of PGCEdit is limited to ripping ARccOS-protected disks via the plug-in/DVD Decrypter; DVD Remake is the program that I normally use to fix problems, since it points out the specific cell commands that can wind up screwing with a disk's playback (plus I've simply grown used to it). But I know that most of what can be fixed within DVD Remake can also be fixed within PGCEdit. Whether you feel you can fix them or not, the errors presented might prove useful to CloneDVD's support, if included in a follow-up Email.

*By the way, have they offered any help at all? I know bug-reporting is frustrating when you're dealing with larger outfits (most of my own attempts resulted in one-size-fits-all form replies in broken English that didn't even come CLOSE to addressing the problem I mentioned), but someone's gotta do it.

Thinking about it, another trick you can try is using IFOedit's "Get VTS Sectors" button: Just load your VIDEO_TS.IFO in that program, click "Get VTS Sectors," and see what it comes up with. I'd recommend making a copy of your original problem file first (Copy the folder to a new location), so you don't mess up your IFO files permanently -- IFOedit makes changes like that by modifying the original files; it only makes new ones if you're changing the video/audio content. Since the original problem was caused by modifying the length of the streams, it makes sense that doing so might have whacked these settings out-- but that's something IFOedit excells at fixing. It just might work! Link's below if you want to try it.

http://www.doom9.org/Soft21/Vobtools/Ifoedit0971.zip

[laserfan]

...I guess the Sony's are picky?...Yes, at least in the sense that they tend to adhere strictly to the DVD specs in re: their requirements. I don't know if more recent models are more "forgiving" of DVD structural anomalies or not...

[Sandman78]

@Sandman78

PGCEdit will chew on your material once you've....................


Thanks for all the information and instructions. I will try and do some of those things because it would be great if I could get a more technical explanation of what CloneDVD is doing to the files.

Another strange thing.. and I mentioned it in my first post... is that if I use CloneDVD to trim chapters from titles and then chose to transcode the disc(instead of chosing DVD+R DL for no compression and then running it thru DVDRB), the disc works fine in the Sony.

If I find anything out with those programs I will post it.

:thanks:

[jdobbs]

Yes, at least in the sense that they tend to adhere strictly to the DVD specs in re: their requirements. I don't know if more recent models are more "forgiving" of DVD structural anomalies or not...But, then, you are making the assumption there are anomalies... the problem is that I (or anyone else who's looked at it) can't find any anomalies.
Another strange thing.. and I mentioned it in my first post... is that if I use CloneDVD to trim chapters from titles and then chose to transcode the disc(instead of chosing DVD+R DL for no compression and then running it thru DVDRB), the disc works fine in the Sony. Unfortunately there are lots editing errors you can create in a source that will be ignored by a player -- but can't be ignored in reauthoring. So this really doesn't explain anything.

I'll fix any problem in DVD-RB... but I have to have at least some assurance it is a problem in DVD-RB before I start chasing it down rabbit holes. That's virtually impossible to do on preprocessed sources.

[Sandman78]

jdobbs, I completely understand and I think DVDRB is working perfectly in this situation. All my DVD players besides the Sony play the disc fine. What I was meaning to refer to with the statement you quoted was the overall "flakiness" of the Sony. The reason I started this thread was mainly becuase this is the DVDRB forum and if there was a place anywhere that had users who might have run into my situation or will run into my situation, it was this forum. Replies like the ones from writersblock29 are exactly what I was hoping for.

[jdobbs]

I suspect there is something to this Sony issue... either on the player or within DVD-RB... I just wish there was something that might provide a key to what that might be. Why just Sony, and only certain Sony Players?

I'll get to the bottom of this somehow... but right now I have no clues.

[writersblock29]

@Jdobbs

Qouted: "Why just Sony, and only certain Sony Players?"

Indeed. I've got three set top players, and two of them are Sony. Both the Sonys are different models... but I haven't had any issues with either. You're using a Sony yourself, aren't you?

@Sandman78

Glad I could help. I hope you'll find the answers you need within those programs. If you're able to fix it so that it flows through Rebuilder without trouble, give us a post and let us know what'cha did.

[jdobbs]

I have two Sony players that I test on, and I haven't had any issues on either.

[apfraats]

Oh no, Sony again.

People know about my DPV-NS405...... which looks very much like the model(s) discussed here.

Mine was able TO SHUTDOWN AT REVERSE PLAYBACK !!!

Talked to Sony: They said that that wasn't even possible, but it happens !!

If I use GOP=15 and the HC-encoder I DEFENITELY get these problems.

Also when using DBD-RB-PRO 1.02, there was a little bug that could you get over the MAX_BITRATE of 10.05 Mbps (IIRC!)

No problem for all my other players, but the Sony went stuttering on these places and using DTS playback when bitrate exceeded OFFICIAL specs, just a little !!

On the other hand I NEVER HAD A PROBLEM WITH WHATEVER ORIGINAL DVD !!

So yep Sony is picky, but with IN SPEC DVD's there is no propblem whatsoever.......

Also using CCE gives no problem whatsoever....

But both Procoder and HC were able to get it switching off when playing in slow or fast reverse direction......

I guess if just 1 little thing is not DVD-compliant, the Sony get's into trouble.....

This could be everything, I have noticed that HC generates GOP's only consisting of one I-frame, and never see this happen with CCE and I even don't know if this is in spec.

Also in the past HC generates motion vectors that pointed to area's out of the picture partly......

But it plays all original dvd's fine !!!

I suppose that if a DVD runs perfectly on a Sony , it will on other players too.

So, perfect piece of test-material !!!

I generally have NO PROBLEMS when I use CCE.......

I can have problems using Procoder and HC however.

So it looks even the MPEG stream is of importance.

If thier are weird things happening there, whatever it is, the Sony goes into the blue....

[laserfan]

...I guess if just 1 little thing is not DVD-compliant, the Sony get's into trouble....That's what I was saying as well. Of course, to a software programmer "one little thing" can mean the difference between working beautifully, or not at all!

I have two Sonys, the great DVP-S7000 (which sits idle right now), and a newer carousel unit (still, at 3 years old it is ancient by today's standards). I originally got the new unit because the old one wouldn't play my homebrew Tivo DVDs in any way-shape-form (only DVD-Rs were available at the time). The new one WOULD play DVD-Rs, but only after I got the things built right (audio sampling rate and video resolution are two problems that come to mind right now--I know these are not little things, these are major things).

Anyway my point earlier was simply that it seemed, at least back then, that Sony engineers were more interested in pounding-home the "compliance" aspect of their products, than to try to make them more "forgiving" as, for example, some of the Chinese players that will play bagels with cream cheese on them! ;) I'm not thrilled w/my NC-655 but will likely not replace it again until generation 2 of an HD player.

Sandman you might be fighting a losing battle with your Sony, but you may take some comfort in the fact that you will be very much more educated about your hobby after you've worked this for a while!

"The beat way to learn something is to solve a problem that is meaningful to you." --laserfan

[jdobbs]

@apfraats

If you force GOP=15 and run it against a source with pulldown flags set, you can definitely cause it to go out of spec.

[hank315]

But both Procoder and HC were able to get it switching off when playing in slow or fast reverse direction......Now it seems HC isn't the only encoder that generates non DVD-compliant (Sony) streams, even a well established encoder as Procoder is able to do that :D

I guess if just 1 little thing is not DVD-compliant, the Sony get's into trouble.....Hm, it can even run into trouble when the stream is compliant:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=634406#post634406

The issue discussed is about the use of the sequence end code, using it is DVD-compliant.
There's just one brand which can't handle it right...

[jdobbs]

Just so everyone knows (on an associated note)... DVD Rebuilder removes sequence end codes from M2V files for that very reason (I know Hank315 knows this -- but I couldn't remember whether it is mentioned in the forum anywhere).

[hank315]

DVD Rebuilder removes sequence end codes from M2V files for that very reason....but I couldn't remember whether it is mentioned in the forum anywhere Yes, it was better I mentioned that also, AFAIK it was in that same thread.
But the fact remains it was needed to keep Sony owners happy.

[jdobbs]

Interesting turn of events. The same people who make what appears to be the world's most sensitive player are also the ones who purposefully put error sectors on DVD titles they publish.

Curiouser and curiouser.

[feedback]

Interesting turn of events. The same people who make what appears to be the world's most sensitive player are also the ones who purposefully put error sectors on DVD titles they publish.

Curiouser and curiouser.
If Sony can't stop people from ripping a backup copy of their personally owned commercial DVD's, then it appears they are going to try and stop people from playing their backup copies by having Sony dvd players reject anything but a commercially pressed DVD.

If it looks like a dog and barks like a dog and smells like a dog then it must be a dog, right?
Just something to think about and of course this is just my opinion. :D

Regards,:)

[setarip_old]

it appears they are going to try and stop people from playing their backup copies by having Sony dvd players reject anything but a commercially pressed DVD.
I believe you're overstating the situation. Although I've many times stated that SONY standalones are "finicky", I have literally hundreds of DVD-R, DVD+R, and D/L DVD+R backups of my original DVDs that play perfectly on the two SONY standalone DVD players I have (as well as three other non-SONYs). I suspect that it's most likely, as has been suggested in several of the other posts in this thread, that some ripping and/or compressing programs "don't follow all the rules"...

[jdobbs]

But then, Hank315 has just given us an example of where Sony won't play a disc that does follow the rules. Like I said earlier, though, the Sony players I use for testing have no problem with backups. The only knowledge I have of this problem is as has been posted here on the forums.