Image "jumps" a couple pixels every second!?

[laserfan]

In trying to re-build "Quiz Show" R1 DVD, the output VTS has very noticeable "jumps" in the picture, at a consistent rate of about once each second. I'm using latest 1.04 PRO, and for this disc I selected "Convert LB to Anamorphic" option.

In looking at the Work files, I noticed two things:

1. I found when viewing some m2v files that the opening and closing credits and not only in English, but also in French. Sure enough, the RB log says "Angle/Interleaving is present".

2. The m2v files do not appear to "jump" at all; only the final re-built VOB files "jump"

Is there a way to re-build from my Work files that will stop the "jumping"? If not, and I want to re-do this from scratch, and assuming the 2nd set of images w/French titling are the problem, what is the right way to go about it?

THANKS!

[jdobbs]

Any other processing of any kind involved? Any non-default settings in the ripper?

What ripper did you use? I've noted in another thread some ILVU problems I found with DVDFab.

[laserfan]

Used DVD Decrypter in File mode:
By File
Multi-Angle Processing NOT checked
Remove IFO Structure Protection, RC Protection, RCE Protection ARE checked
Also only Patch m2v timecode is checked

Nothing else special except of course the LB to 16:9 conversion

Thanks jdobbs for any ideas...

P.S. I should add that the DVD is not the best transfer I've ever seen; the sprocket holes on the film used are probably just a little worn! But the "jumps" actually are steady, a pulsing effect.

[laserfan]

I used DVD Shrink to re-author the movie to a single angle. Then I made a short test VTS and ran DVD-RB Pro two more times...both times I still got the "jumpiness".

For grins I looked at the files using my media player--no jumps. :confused:

Then I looked at them with Media Player Classic and again, steady. So my normal "checking app", PowerDVD player is somehow not liking the output. Dunno what the heck problem PowerDVD 5.0 has, but it's a new one on me. Sorry for the distraction here.

[Boulder]

Have you tried disabling deinterlacing in PowerDVD?

[laserfan]

Have you tried disabling deinterlacing in PowerDVD?PowerDVD has no Disable function that I could find, but it was set to Auto-Select in the De-interlacing Mode dialog. If I set it to either "Force Bob" or "Force Weave", then the picture is steady.

Some days I think I am understanding this stuff better, but now today I don't think I know anything at all! I wonder why, after processing w/DVD-RB, this particular DVD might give PowerDVD this grief?

I assume this has something to do with the multi-angle nature of the disc. I did find anyway that the DVD-RB output of the multi-angled original did NOT play properly on my media players. So I've decided to re-do the whole thing from scratch after making a single-angle version using DVD Shrink.

[laserfan]

Ok right after my previous post I notice in one of the AVS files:

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\DVD-RB PRO\DGDecode.dll")
mpeg2source("D:\DVD REBUILDER WORK\D2VAVS\V01.D2V")
trim(185497,192230)
SeparateFields().LanczosResize(720,240,0,30,720,180).Weave()
ConvertToYV12(interlaced=true)

SeparateFields and Weave are unique to the end credit sequence--my sense is that these must be Video-over-Film for some reason. But I don't know why the whole video should be impacted.

In any case after re-authoring w/Shrink I successfully used DVD-RB to re-encode and re-make the program to an Anamorphic VTS. If anyone has comments or knowledge about this by all means pls post!

[magic144]

err, sorry
by "jumps" am I right in thinking the video is moving up and down Vertically??
(I thought you meant temporally at first, took me a while to twig)

if so, I've definitely seen PowerDVD do this before where it is incorrectly trying to process interlaced video - I think the last time I saw it it was set to choose deinterlacing by "bitstream analysis" (which I think is default) and getting it all wrong - forcing it to deinterlace (by whichever method - bob, weave, whatever) made all the difference

btw, burning the disc and playing it back on the TV was totally fine too (where deinterlacing happens at the hardware level!)

just PowerDVD making an incorrect assumption about the nature of the video I think...

it surprises me there are still interlaced sources out there!!! - March of the Penguins is a brand new example

[apfraats]

Interlaced souces ????

Yep about 95% of my collection and NEW dvd's...................

[magic144]

a good way of telling whether or not the source is interlaced is to look at it with dgmpgdec

[magic144]

well, all modern discs are authored to be displayed as interlaced fields, but they're usually flagged for original (film) frame reconstruction for pure progressive output right?! I mean the inherent 'film'-ness of the 'original film source' is not lost in the DVD encoding and can be faithfully reconstructed by the playback hardware (even if the frame output ordering is 'jiggered' somewhat by the 24-30Hz - for NTSC - mismatch)

whereas a pure interlaced source is just a stream of successive fields with no reference to film frames whatsoever

[manono]

Hi-

Couldn't help but notice:
March of the Penguins is a brand new example
That's an interesting example you chose. A major film, and the surprise hit of 2005, and it's not encoded progressively, even though the source is film (16mm film, converted to 35mm). They encoded already telecined film onto the DVD as interlaced 29.97fps. It's not interlaced in the sense of being shot with 30fps interlaced video cameras. It can and should be IVTC'd. Warner Home Video should be ashamed of themselves for putting out that badly encoded piece of garbage.
I mean the inherent 'film'-ness of the 'original film source' is not lost in the DVD encoding and can be faithfully reconstructed by the playback hardware
In most cases, no. You play it in PowerDVD, and it deinterlaces it. It's incapable of performing the "IVTC" on the fly. The same is true of other software players. Neither can most Progressive Scan DVD players perform the "IVTC" for playback to progressive displays, such as HDTVs. Since most are flag readers, and since the flagging on something like March Of The Penguins lacks the progressive flags, those players will also deinterlace it. You need a better "cadence" reading player, such as one with a Faroudja chipset, to get it to play correctly to a progressive display. Most people spend the big bucks for their HDTV, and then expect any old Progressive Scan DVD Player to play all their material correctly. Then they wonder why many of their TV Series DVDs, many of the extras on DVDs, and, yes, March Of The Penguins, look so lousy on their nice HDTV.

And DGIndex will only tell you how it was encoded, not what the source is like, often 2 different things.

[magic144]

hi manono
thanks for that info

I'm intruiged - are you suggesting a Faroudja-equipped player can somehow interpret original film frames from a field-only encoded interlaced stream?

video just seems to be wide open with problems as far as I can see! - if only we could all converge on one standard of PAL/NTSC/SECAM, interlaced/progressive 24/35/30/60fps and 480i/480p/720p/1080i/1080p blah blah blah

what is the point of all this stuff!!!! surely now some of it must be redundant??!!

[jdobbs]

A major film, and the surprise hit of 2005, and it's not encoded progressively, even though the source is film (16mm film, converted to 35mm). Interesting... I definitely noticed some film graininess in the DVD and also some "softening". Incredibly good documentary, though.

[manono]

Hi magic144-

If I'm understanding you correctly, then encoding individual field pictures is pretty rare these days. Usually the structure is frame based. But the answer to your question is yes. I just mentioned Faroudja because it's the best known of the quality chipsets. There are others also that can do the same thing. I've only been reading about the problems with March Of The Penguins so far. I'll have a look at it myself in a few days. As an example of a review critical of the DVD, read the comments about 1/4 of the way down the page:

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDReviews19/march_of_the_penguins_dvd_review.htm

To go into more detail: All NTSC DVD players (Progressive Scan or not) output 480i (59.94 fields per second, 240 pixels high). DVD was developed for standard tube based interlaced TV sets. Where a Progressive Scan DVD player differs is that it can "intercept" that interlaced field output and reassemble those fields into their proper frames. If it's a pure flag reader, it reads the progressive flags if they exist, tosses out the redundant fields and outputs the frames in a 3/2 pattern. Those 23.976 frames per second still have to be displayed at 59.94 Hz, or, for a progressive display, 59.94 frames per second. Cadence readers can go an extra step. Not only will they handle properly encoded 23.976fps progressive film material with the progressive flags applied (so-called "soft telecine"), but they can also "IVTC" film material that's been encoded as interlaced 29.97fps (aka "hard telecine") by spotting the 3/2 pattern (cadence), tossing the redundant fields and outputting the same progressive frames. Most flag reading players, seeing only video flags in hard telecined DVDs such as March Of The Penguins, can only deinterlace them. If they have decent motion adaptive deinterlacers, they may look passable. If they don't, they'll look worse. As encoders trying to compress a DVD9 down to a DVD5, doing the IVTC ourselves and getting rid of the hard-to-compress interlacing and the 25% unnecessary frames can greatly improve the resulting video quality, whether we intend to view it on an interlaced or a progressive TV set later on.

[laserfan]

I'm not gonna pretend that I understand your post manono, but it begs a question:

If many DVD players will have trouble with a disc like "March...", wouldn't it be possible then, with the many tools we have available, to dissect this-and-other-such discs and Rebuild ( ;) ) them to play perfectly in a majority of players?

[magic144]

btw

I didn't mean to imply there's anything "wrong" with March of the Penguins

I was just surprised it was encoded as interlaced and not progressive... it seems a bit old-fashioned in this day and age!

doing ivtc ourselves sounds like a good idea as long as we know a particular source is encoded in such a recoverable way and not some pure interlaced or some other weirdness I guess - from what I understand and from what you've said, storing the flag-based frames would cut down the size and allow for better (more efficient) compression

[manono]

laserfan-

If many DVD players will have trouble with a disc like "March...", wouldn't it be possible then, with the many tools we have available, to dissect this-and-other-such discs and Rebuild ( ) them to play perfectly in a majority of players?

What they did with that DVD is perfectly "legal", and it will play fine in the vast majority of DVD players since most people still have interlaced CRT televisions. It's those NTSC people watching on progressive displays of some sort (computer monitors, HTPCs feeding a progressive display, plasma screens, LCD, DLP, projectors, etc.) with the wrong DVD player that may have problems. Those of us trying to back up this DVD and compress to a DVD5 will have greater problems, because without an IVTC you're wasting precious bits trying to compress 25% more frames than necessary. If you decide, for example, to back it up with that 50 minute "Making Of" docu, the resulting quality won't be nearly as good as if it had been originally encoded progressively, or if we had the ability to IVTC from within DVD-RB. As it stands now, your best bet is to reencode it manually.

I should say at this point that I have an agenda. This issue of being able to IVTC from within DVD-RB has already been discussed ad nauseum with jdobbs by me and others, most recently by FredThompson, I think. Since DVD-RB is such a newb-friendly program, and since many beginners haven't the slightest idea when and when not to IVTC, inevitably there will be people trying to IVTC a pure interlaced stream, and then whining to jdobbs about DVD-RB making their video play jerky. It's a very difficult problem, first to incorporate the possibility to IVTC into DVD-RB, and then to keep it from being used wrongly. My own opinion is that it would make a very good program even better. I believe jdobbs is either looking into it, or already has plans to incorporate IVTC into a future version. Not really sure.

magic144-

it seems a bit old-fashioned in this day and age!

For a major studio to release something like this, yes. For small, low-budget production companies, unfortunately it's still all too common.

...storing the flag-based frames would cut down the size and allow for better (more efficient) compression

Exactly, more efficient compression.

[magic144]

first of all, let me reemphasize that I agree with manono - there is nothing technically at fault with this DVD - it's just not the best way it could have been produced - but hey, we live in an imperfect world - some DVD causing a minor inconvenience really is just a minor inconvenience!

I must say, when I first saw the size of this film vs the length of it, I was shocked it was so big on the disc - I mean it's only about 80 minutes long and it takes up more than a single sided disc - something is awry!

anyway, hopefully if an algorithm to detect the possibility of IVTC can be worked out and executed in the background so as not to bemuse noobs (of which, in many aspects of video tech, I am a proud member), I think we should all send jdobbs another donation!

and maybe one day, after everyone transitions to digital players and digital displays, all of this will be moot! (but don't hold your breath for about 10 years+ - probably when 'they' turn off the analog transmissions, the chaos will be deafening enough!!!)

and anyway, by then we won't be able to backup discs (or whatever media they are using by then) because big business will have humbled their consumer slaves (and put the rest in prison)

[manono]

Darn, I have to eat my words. I hate when that happens.

That review of March Of The Penguins to which I linked earlier? It's for the Canadian version of the DVD. I wasn't reading carefully enough, and even if I had, who would think the US R1 and Canadian R1 DVDs would be so different? I got the US R1 yesterday, had a look, and it's 100% Film. I e-mailed him (he's a friend of mine) and he's edited the review to say that the US version is progressively encoded.

So, the Canadian version has English audio with French subs. The US version has English and Spanish (?) audio with English, French, and Spanish subs. The Canadian version has only the one (very good) "Making Of" documentary as an extra while the US version has that plus another National Geographic "Crittercam" docu, a good bugs Bunny cartoon, and a bunch of trailers. Plus the Canadian version is encoded as interlaced 29.97fps, while the US version is 23.976fps progressively encoded. Amazing how different they are. Anyway, sorry for the mistake.

I watched the whole thing earlier today and thoroughly enjoyed it. Having Morgan Freeman doing the narration certainly helps give it a depth and authority it wouldn't have with anyone else doing it. And that 16mm photography looks about as good as I've ever seen 16mm look. Grainy sometimes, slightly soft most of the time, but still very nice looking, especially considering the conditions under which they were working.

[wmansir]

Thanks for the update manono. I will probably be getting the US R1 in a couple of days, glad to hear it hasn't been butchered.

[laserfan]

Thanks for following-up!

:goodpost:

[jdobbs]

The backup I made (R1, NTSC, U.S.) was film (except the extras).

[magic144]

Blame Canada!

well that just sucks - why do we get the March of the Turkeys???

tongue in cheek there - I'm sure it will look unnoticeably different to my eyes when I watch it (though it's still very much near the bottom of my in-tray right now...)

after all, in the end it's only how it looks that matters, so I'm sure it will be visually stunning no matter what!