Trigun backup: need some feedback

[Chainmax]

I am currently trying to backup Trigun R1 to a single DVD-R with the original japanese AC3 (video will average ~555kbps) with a resolution of 640x480. I'm using the AE-MaxQuality profile, plus mp4_guy's_AVC_Low_Bitrate_matrix_V2 custom matrix and AQ set at strength=0.5 and sensitivity=15. The results, while good, aren't completely satisfactory yet, so I wanted you guys to give me some feedback on what to do. You can download the latest sample encode [link removed].

By the way, this is the current script:

TFM(d2v="X:\wherever\myd2v.d2v",mode=6,PP=7,slow=2,mChroma=false)
TDecimate(mode=1)
BiFrost(interlaced=false)
Deblock()
RemoveGrain(mode=5)
abcxyz()
Crop(10,0,704,480,align=true)
aWarpSharp(depth=16,cm=1)
BicubicResize(640,480,0,0.5)
LimitedSharpen()

[bond]

why do you use aq? did you get any blocks when NOT using it?

why do you use mp4guys matrix? are you sure it gives you better results than using no cqm?

[*.mp4 guy]

I can't think of any way to improve the X264 compression, except to maybe increase the ME Range from 16 to 32.

[Edit]

@ bond

He had blocks in a test encode he uploded, they weren't to bad, but AQ could help with them.

[ChronoCross]

well the correct filtering would help. even in my experiences with this source (it is one of the worst I've ever seen, if he showed you the opening sequence you would understand why.) even I don't have one that can properly deal with it. those blocks are unusual are they in the source chainmax? I don't remember any blocking like that.

[Chainmax]

bond: like *.mp4 guy said, initial encodes showed some blocking, for example when the camera moves up showing the boomerang giant and his gang. As for the cqm, as you can see even using this there is still some pixelation and AVC's characteristic lack of smoothness when not using enough bitrate.

ChronoCross: which blocks are you referring to? Would you want me to upload the source chunk corresponding to this sample? What would you change in the filterchain, maybe using BilinearResize and omiting LimitedSharpen?

[bond]

thx for the info!

btw if you want more smoothness you can try to use a higher deblocking

[Chainmax]

I don't want more smoothness, I just want this backup to look good. I'm already trying to make a new version without LimitedSharpen, AQ or a custom matrix and will post it once it's done.

[ChronoCross]

IMHO I think it looks too sharp. plus the lines are doing the dancing thing that I so love about this anime. It looks fine when played on a TV but the second you try to deinterlace and encode it poof it turns to crap. Plus your bitrate is too low. If your "backing up" then you should definitely raise the bitrate.

[Chainmax]

Maybe the next try will turn out better. Anyway, this is a backup, but it's also meant as a proof of concept of sorts, to see how far x264 can go. What do you mean by "the lines are doing the dancing thing", by the way?

[ChronoCross]

Maybe the next try will turn out better. Anyway, this is a backup, but it's also meant as a proof of concept of sorts, to see how far x264 can go. What do you mean by "the lines are doing the dancing thing", by the way?

Just watch the lines around their arms. and you'll see them jump from one spot to the next every second or so.

[Chainmax]

Are you sure it's one the source? I did use aWarpSharp...


Anyway, I made a new version which can be downloaded from [link removed]. I really like how it turned out.

[Chainmax]

I made another version with a higher average bitrate (774kbps) intended to use Vorbis @ q6 instead of the 384kbps AC3. You can download it from [link removed]. I'm torn between using NewTry2 with original AC3 or NewTry3 with Vorbis, what do you guys think?

[DryFire]

I'd go for try 3 with the vorbis. You get a lot less of the dancing lines chrono mentions I don't really see a reason to leave it in AC3.

[Chainmax]

You notice less dncing in the lines? That weird, the only difference between 2 and 3 other than the bitrate is that 3 has Lanczos4Resize and LimitedSharpen. Also, don't you see much more blocking in 3 (not that it's a problem, I can raise deblocking to 1/1)?

[Sirber]

Why not HE-AAC?

[Chainmax]

The source AC3 is stereo, and I find Vorbis preferable for stereo mainly because having crappy hearing I trust guruboolez's tests. Plus it does make playback a bit easier on the CPU.

[foxyshadis]

AVC and AAC/SBR is enough to make a processor cry. ;)

I didn't really notice any differences on a casual comparison, both seem very crisp with a bit of ringing, although the second put more load on my processor. Then again, I only really noticed the line problem in one scene and it was in both (the first image of the guns).

[Anonymouses]

With ffdshow's deblocking on, the third one looks pretty good. I can spot a couple of blocks in the sky at times, but nothing bad.

[Chainmax]

The third one was made with deblocking 0/0. I'm going to make a fourth version with deblocking 1/1 (although the blocks in the sky might need some AQ). Thanks for the feedback :).

[Sharktooth]

however the default flat quantization along with deblocking 1:1 or 2:2 is the best thing you can try for cartoons/anime.
ensure you clean all the mosquito noise with non aggressive temporal filters (deen is ok but try to not destroy details) and do not use sharpening filters (except limitedsharpen). If you want sharp looking edges use Lanczos.

[ChronoCross]

I find that limitedsharpen messes too much with the way the lines look: Makes them darker and wider. and emphasizes other black parts of the video that is some cases gives a good looking effect and in other cases looks like crap. As for details and deen i think that most animes barely ave any fine detail that one is used to messing with in live action movies, it's best to filter the crap out of cause any detail loss almost looks natural to the eyes when done correctly. Else you end up with blocks in flat areas of color which worsens the problems with blocking(such as the blue sky) that will be even worse than just the codec blocking.

[Chainmax]

however the default flat quantization along with deblocking 1:1 or 2:2 is the best thing you can try for cartoons/anime.
ensure you clean all the mosquito noise with non aggressive temporal filters (deen is ok but try to not destroy details) and do not use sharpening filters (except limitedsharpen). If you want sharp looking edges use Lanczos.

What is this "flat quantization" you speak of? Try3 was made with the default matrix if that's what you mean. About removing mosquito noise, I think Deblock and DDeHalo (or Didée's DeHalo, the name I invented for his abcxyz function) remove enough detail already. By the way, the filterchain for Try3 and the upcoming Try4 is this one:

TFM(d2v="X:\wherever\myd2v.d2v",mode=6,PP=7,slow=2,mChroma=false)
TDecimate(mode=1)
BiFrost(interlaced=false)
Deblock()
DDeHalo()
aWarpSharp(depth=16,cm=1)
Crop(10,0,704,480,align=true)
Lanczos4Resize(640,480)
LimitedSharpen()

ChronoCross: if by "wider" you mean "thicker", then that effect is countered by aWarpSharp. Besides, I really like the sharp look of Try3. What part of the sample do you feel LimitedSharpen is crapping up? About detail removal, if you take a look at my SmartSSIQ+Bifrost thread on Avisynth usage, you'll see that I already went that way using LRemoveDust_YV12, but the end result was way too flat-looking. I really prefer this way.


Everyone: I think that with Try4 all blocking will be eliminated. I then will ask you to compare and tell me what you think is a better idea: Try2 with japanese 384kbps stereo AC3 or Try4 with Vorbis aoTuVb4 @ q6.

[bond]

the flat matrix is the matrix avc uses when you dont use a custom quant matrix

[Chainmax]

Well, Try3 and Try4 use the default matrix.

[Anonymouses]

As for details and deen i think that most animes barely ave any fine detail that one is used to messing with in live action movies, it's best to filter the crap out of cause any detail loss almost looks natural to the eyes when done correctly.

And it's for this reason that I usually avoid most fansubs because they are so overfiltered that at times it looks like you're watching a flash animation.

[nm]

Everyone: I think that with Try4 all blocking will be eliminated. I then will ask you to compare and tell me what you think is a better idea: Try2 with japanese 384kbps stereo AC3 or Try4 with Vorbis aoTuVb4 @ q6.
I still don't see any reason for such a high quality level for Vorbis. If the video is not archival quality, why should the audio be? I very much doubt many here could hear the difference between Vorbis @ q2 and the original, and even if they did, it would not be irritating.

[Chainmax]

The reason is quite simple: if the source was uncompressed or lossless WAV, I'd just pull the old "placebo effect" and "not everyone has bad hearing" arguments. Seeing that the source is already compressed to a lossy format, I just have to pull the old "photocopy of a photocopy" argument.

[DryFire]

If you're archiving it for yourself and you have bad hearing why scuh high quality audio?

Though i have a feeling if you add more bits to the video it won't get drastically better even though after looking at the filtering thread I may be wrong.

[nm]

Not everybody has a bad sight as well. The difference between q6 and q2 may be about 80 kbit/s, which is 10% of your video bitrate. That is quite a lot considering that the lesser audio quality is more than good enough to accompany the video. I'm just saying that the ratio between your audio and video bitrate is a bit skewed to favor audio.

[Chainmax]

DryFire: there are two reasons. Placebo effect, and the fact that other people will watch this with me.

nm: I see your point, and that is why I'm considering going from AC3 to Vorbis in the first place. For the audio, I gathered advice from reading threads in HydrogenAudio, where they state that q6 is where lossless stereo coupling kicks in. For the video, I'm asking here for feedback. The 774kbps encode seems to please more people, and it already has ~2X the average bitrate of Sirber's Naruto encodes. Going with higher bitrate would probably be overkill.

[ChronoCross]

And it's for this reason that I usually avoid most fansubs because they are so overfiltered that at times it looks like you're watching a flash animation.

Hence the reason you should stop downloading crap. If done right you shouldn't notice the filtering and it should look perfect. Generally when you talk about fansubs your talking about raw video that has been put through a capture card(which smooths the hell out of it) then put into mpeg4 divx which smooths it some more and then into it's final format with subs(smoothed again to remove blocking fromt he raw.), which is why it is best not to download those things. Buy the DVD and the master it yourself.

[Anonymouses]

Hence the reason you should stop downloading crap.

Hence why I said I don't download fansubs anymore, and haven't for quite some time, because they have that same mentality of filtering the crap out of them.

If done right you shouldn't notice the filtering and it should look perfect.

Not when its had the crap filtered out of it.

Generally when you talk about fansubs your talking about raw video that has been put through a capture card(which smooths the hell out of it) then put into mpeg4 divx which smooths it some more and then into it's final format with subs(smoothed again to remove blocking fromt he raw.), which is why it is best not to download those things.

Which is why I don't.

Buy the DVD and the master it yourself.

I do, and I don't filter the crap out of them because that looks like crap. :)

[DryFire]

Chainmax - I haven't seen sirber's 368kbps naruto encode but I've tried some 400kbps encodes (though some more filtering could help), they are watchable but I don't think the smaller filesize is that important. 500-600 seems to be a better spot for anime.

[Sharktooth]

why dont you use REALAnime LE for anime encoding?

[DryFire]

I don't know if that question was aimed at.

However, i don't use REALAnime LE because it doesn't show me all the profile options I have, nor does it allow manual insertion of commands (x264 updates and seems to add features pretty quickly). Also the highest audio setting is 64kbps AAC, but I don't like using less then ~86kbps.

That said I like REALAnime as far as ease of use goes and the filtering thing it has (for people who don't know how to do avi synth scripts). It's just not for me. Though I'm happy sirber's doing it, I'd reccomend it for people who want to get their feet wet with x264 and don't know how to do a simple avisynth script.

[ChronoCross]

I do, and I don't filter the crap out of them because that looks like crap. :)

like I said...only if you do it incorrectly.

[Chainmax]

ChronoCross, Anonymouses: please take this to PM.

Dryfire: I haven't seen those Naruto encodes either, but they probably look very nice. In any case, take into account that using AC3 would yield an average video bitrate of ~555kbps and using Vorbis @ q6 would yield an average video bitrate of ~774kbps.

Sharktooth: i never used it, but if DryFire is correct then those are the exact same reasons I wouldn't.

[ChronoCross]

I still don't understand why your shooting for such a low bitrate with backups. you could fit the entire series on 2 DVD's if you had a target filesize of 320MB. Trying to fit the entire series on 1 DVD for backups is just beyond me.

When you look at the file before compression in lets say virtualdub do you see the blocking? or is it something that only appears after you encode it?

[Sirber]

However, i don't use REALAnime LE because it doesn't show me all the profile options I have, nor does it allow manual insertion of commands (x264 updates and seems to add features pretty quickly). Also the highest audio setting is 64kbps AAC, but I don't like using less then ~86kbps.RealAnime LE is pretty updated with new x264 builds, but nre features makes the encoding pretty slow and I don't recommend using them. Bellow 64kbps you can use "Parametric Stereo". It sounds pretty cool on voice and most kind of music.

That said I like REALAnime as far as ease of use goes and the filtering thing it has (for people who don't know how to do avi synth scripts). It's just not for me. Though I'm happy sirber's doing it, I'd reccomend it for people who want to get their feet wet with x264 and don't know how to do a simple avisynth script.Thanks! :D

[Chainmax]

Everyone: as it turns out, MeGUI has a bug in which doing automated 3-pass with turbo enabled would results in lower quality. After finishing Try4 manually queueing each pass, I redid Try2 as well and it looks much better. Please download both clips and tell me if you'd prefer Try2 (http://www.31012.com/~azulftp/NewTry2.mp4) with AC3 or Try4 (http://www.31012.com/~azulftp/NewTry4.mp4) with Vorbis @ q6.

Chronocross: I just do. I could do a 2 DVD-R (or 1 DL DVD) backup with both AC3 soundtracks but that's not what I'm aiming for. Besides, either of the two tries look better than the source in my opinion, even Try2 with its slight lack of sharpness. The source itself is fairly blocky on some spots and mostly on Vash's costume and some rare sky scenes, but what you see in the samples are from the encoding. I repeat my offer of uploading the vob sample corresponding to these encodes.

[Sharktooth]

Please, dont spread false rumors. x264 has no bug with 3 passes. It's a MeGUI bug.

[Chainmax]

I'm sorry, I misunderstood you. Mistake corrected :o.

[DryFire]

I like Try 4 better, the door in the intro and vash's suit have less of a flickering blur then in try 2. I would like to see teh .vob file for the clip, though I'm sure I have teh dvd or my friend does somewhere...

I still don't see a reason to keep the audio in AC3 as opposed to q6 vorbis. If there is an audbile difference I doubt most people have the proper setup to hear it. Unless decreasing cpu usage is also part of it.

[Chainmax]

DryFire: I'll upload the source vob sample corresponding to this scene soon. By the way, Try4 is intended to be used with q6 Vorbis which is why it looks better (774kbps vs 555kbps). So Vorbis @ q6 is indeed one of the two options :).

[Chainmax]

The vob sample can now be downloaded from [deleted]

[bond]

The vob sample can now be downloaded from [deleted]rule 6:
Links to content of a questionable nature, asking for, offering, or asking for help/helping to process such content in any way or form is not tolerated.