Resample out sync 44 to 48

[Clearline]

I am using the ATI Rage 128 AGP tuner (All-In
Wonder), as my capture device.
So far video quality has been about the best of the different systems I have tried in this price range.

Unfortunately (and stupidly) although dvd resolutions for capture are offered (like 720x 480 and CVD 352x480) their programming and drivers will only permit audio sampling at 44hz or less (even though the chipset is rated for at least 48hz)

I am trying to capture video tapes.

The intention is to make DVDs and I use TDA for authoring. The files are usually variable video around 3500 and the audio is 224 16 bit at 44 hz.

TDA auto resamples to 48hz and the sync begins to go out within 3-4 minutes. Constant bitrate captures also go out of sink.

Audio is always Mpeg 1-2

The files play fine till the resample. I've tried many different programs and configurations to resample, including besweet, but the files always go out sync.

ATI has not been helpful, and act like they don't understand that their programs simply undersample the audio, making their hardware junk, as you are supposed to be able capture and burn to Dvd.

I read the SSRC is a good up sampler, but it only accepts pcm or wav files. The plugin for BeSweet goes out of sync.

I also tried changing the bitrate, to try and compensate for the speed difference (which did change things, but did not give me a predictable result, as the out sinc is progressive).


I also tried SVCD captures, but the audio still goes out, if I resample, and all the editor / convertors like Tmpenc and Nero say the stream is non-standard, and won't open the files.

3 questions:
1. Do all dvd vobs have to have 48 hz audio?

2. If not; how do you get TDA to NOT re-sample (TDA resample isn't worse then anyone elses, as they all go out of sync.)?

3. Finally what (free) program accuratley can upsample audio and not lose sync?

Clearline

PS: At this point I am also looking to by a decent capture and convertor system, and tear this ATI piece of c..p out of my computer. I have spent over 2 months trying to get around this problem.

Added to this problem, no other capture program can access the capture output pins for this device, not even WinDVR, let alone take advantage of the hardware encoding!

[mpucoder]

First of all, ATi is not responsible for capturing the audio. That is done by the audio card, and its drivers. Try using VirtualDub to capture. I use it with excellent results on Ati aiw and generic sound cards. The only time I had sync problems, either at 44 or 48KHz, was with a bad sound card. But even this can be corrected once the actual sample rate is determined (but I don't remember which audio resampling program I used).

I'm moving this to the audio forum so that you can get more help on the resampling.

[Clearline]

Actually, ATI is responsible for the audio, as only their program can access their card, especially during capture; and their program and drivers set the limits to 44hz sample. My sound card does handle 48, and I can capture 48hz with other devices. The AIW chipset that is used 'BT829' is speced to capture audio at 48hz ahd higher.

Also the AIW card is a hardware encoder, and the capture files are MP2.

I don't want to capture to AVI and then convert, which defeats the purpose of having a hardware encoder! ATI promotes capture and burn direct to DVD, but because of the audio sample, this can't be done.

Granted, the sound goes from their card, to my auxillary input, but their prgram is what encodes it to mpeg 1-2. I am not sure, but I believe the audio is encoded on the card as well, and what comes from their card is an output. The sound input is through the antenna connection.
Bypassing their card and going direct to audio line input is troublesome and tends to create a little out sync and delay (and it is still 44 hz when capturing at DVD or CVD resolutions).

As for Virtual Dub, it and every other capturing program I have tried (about a dozen) cannot access THIS AIW card, so they won't even capture to AVI. Even BtSpy could not access this card.


The sync for the audio at 44hz from the AIW is fine, but you still have to upsample to burn DVDs (or at least that what I think).

In the end, I don't believe anything can be done about this problem of capture, unless ATI were to rewrite its drivers and capture program; so the only handling left would be an audio resample.

SO moving my query to the audio section might appropriate, but the questions of capture workaround, DVD sample requirements, and TDA modifications did seem appropriate for this forum.

[mpucoder]

I have the same card, and it does not capture or encode the audio. Audio capturing is done with the audio card driver, and encoding is done via the PC's CPU. The BT829 is the Brooktree video decoder used for capture. That's right, ATi does not make the chipset used for capture, all they make is the graphics engine (Radeon).

[setarip_old]

@Clearline

Hi!

Have you tried using TMPGEnc or GoldWave to up-convert the audio from 44,100Hz to 48,000Hz?

[hartford]

It seems to me that the programs that you are using are resampling _only_; they are not doing a "timestretch."

Sound Forge will do both at the same time.

Here is a link with comparison of timestretch applications:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=76376

(I hate this new board)

[hartford]

I should add that there is a free version of an application to do resample-timestretch:

http://www.dspdimension.com/data/html/dirac.html

I've not used it.

[setarip_old]

@hartford

Hi!

Per "Clearline",[Quote]The sync for the audio at 44hz from the AIW is fine, but you still have to upsample to burn DVDs (or at least that what I think)."

Therefore, I'm of the opinion that the only thing required is resampling at 48Khz.

Why do you feel "timestretching" would be required?

[Clearline]

Setarip: You got my gist correctly. I would love a simple resample solution, but as hartford pointed out, the problem with the sync seems to be related to a progressive out timestretch (the longer the clip, the wider the gap)
BTW: Sorry for my delays in response, but I live in Miami and am having some hurricane related issues.

I have tried many programs to re-sample, sometimes using a demuxed copy of the audio, and different combinations of programs resampling with and without the video, like Tempenc. I was hoping that resampling with the attached video, that some programs would properly 'timestretch but so far none have.

In reviewing the beSweet commands for soundtouch and another plugin, there are some timestretch commands, but they all have some change in either pitch or tempo. These commands also seem to be hard to estimate for this problem, which is progressive in nature.

Goldwave does not produce mp2 files, so it converts (save as) to a .wav; I am testing Goldwave resamp to 48 and then Besweet back to MP2 now (which is really to many steps for a file that you should be able to just capture and burn). So far though, BS can't recognize the GW file, and is giving me error 58 Unknown Input-File Format.

I just tried a GW > Save As to Mp3, with no change in bitrate, then BeSweet to mp2. In testing, audio is out sync with the video, but not as bad, but still progressive. If you jump in the video, the sync can get way off.
On occassion sync would fall in, but then the video would change speed every now and then.
I took these files and let TDA create .vobs, but it did not correct the problem.

Capture specs for the video is CVD resolution 352x480, at about 4500 bit rate. I use this resolution, as the capture is very good (720x480 is a bit jerky) and the conversion to 720x480 is pretty smooth and fast.
The audio is captured to 224 CBR as a default. Video as a constant or variable bitrate suffers the same problem.

My tests for audio sync @48000 is done with the CVD resolution, so nothing else is changed or has to be accounted for. Tests at 720x480, and converted CVD to DVD resolutions, all experienced the same out sync.

Surprisingly, tests on SVCD captures, where I resample to 48hz tends to stay in sync, even at the end of a 2 hour capture.

As for hartford suggestions on the programs he mentioned, I haven't had a chance to see or try them yet, but will later, when I get home from cutting ups some trees.

mpucoder: You seem to keep missing the point!
btw the BT829 chipset DOES have the capacity to record audio and at 48hz, per their specs (conexant), but ATI chooses not to implement it in their drivers. As for the capture and encoding, it is still done by the ATI programs, either soft or hard and the defaults they use can't be changed or bypassed by other programs. It is just pitiful programming on their part.

In addition, this is an older card, so they have had plenty of time to correct the audio capture specs to include 48hz for CVD & DVD resolutions.
If you know of another program, that can access and capture from their (this) card, besides their proprietory one, then just say so. At best some dshow programs like amcap can preview, but can't hook into its capture pins.

The audio stream is put out through their output (not input) lines and appears to already be in mp2 format, before it gets to the soundcard. Being the capture file is directly written with the audio stream in it (and encoding takes time) is why I think it actually may be hardware encoded BUT none of that matters as the end result is still a 44hz in sync audio stream, that has to be converted.

Have your ever actually used this card to capture and burn DVD or CVD?

[setarip_old]

If, as you said earlier in this thread, "The sync for the audio at 44hz from the AIW is fine", I can see no reason why the following procedure using "TMPGEnc" (Different than "TMPGEnc DVD Author") would then create an asynchronous situation:

1) TMPGEnc>>File>>MPEGTools>>Simple Demultiplex
2) Save separate video and audiostreams
3) Set TMPGEnc's main window to "Audio only" - and "drag&drop" the (44,100Hz) audiostream onto it
4) Click on "System" radiobutton, then click on "Audio" tab and set for 48,000Hz
5) Save with a new filename
6) TMPGEnc>>File>>MPEGTools>>Simple Multiplex
7) Load original videostream and NEW (48,000Hz) audiostream
8) Save with a new filename

[Clearline]

You would think that would be all that is needed, but all programs used - so far - including Tempenc Plus, with mp2 & dvd plugin go out of sync when audio is resampled. It has made no difference whether the audio was muxed in or taken from the original file or whether it was resampled before or during the mux.

In the womble mpeg editor, you can see how the time of the audio is longer after a resample.

It actually surprises me that problems with upsampling are rarely discussed on the forum. Before I posted my question, I did a lot of searching and reading.

I'm going to the site hartford mentioned and see if there solution works. If not, I will try to see if the soundtouch plugin for BS works.

I am also considering ordering a Plextor usb capture device ($119 on Tiger Direct) which is a hardware encoder for the full stream, handles 48hz and also hard encodes Divx. This ATI device will then be on the garbage heap.
---------
Setarip: I haven't mentioned it, but I also have problems with TE (Tempenc), in that when I change the settings they are ignored and it seems that TE just uses the settings in its profile, even though I have saved different custom profiles. Advanced setting I make are never used by TE, except when working with AVI files.

Also TE tools does not permit me to preview Mp2 files, only avi. Is this usual for TE?

[setarip_old]

Setarip: I haven't mentioned it, but I also have problems with TE (Tempenc), in that when I change the settings they are ignored and it seems that TE just uses the settings in its profile, even though I have saved different custom profiles. Advanced setting I make are never used by TE, except when working with AVI files.

Also TE tools does not permit me to preview Mp2 files, only avi. Is this usual for TE?

You are using TMPGEncPlus. I continue use older 9TMPGEnc v.2.5) and most often, MUCH older (TMPGEnc v.1.2c) versions - and have never encountered ANY of the problems you've described.

As a matter of fact, based on your postings, using the procedure I detailed, I obtained perfectly synchronized results "upsampling" the 44.1KHz audio of an MPEG2 file to 48KHz...

I've got to ask - Have you purchased TMPGEncPlus, or did you "obtain it by other means"?

[Clearline]

One computer has the freeware v.2.521.58.169, the other computer has Plus 2.5 v2.59.47.155. The 2nd computer came with a registered install, with a valid serial number (I got the computer 3rd hand for doing multimedia crunching), which is where the ATI capture card is too.
I very rarley used either TE, as converting AVIs to MP2 was too slow. (My standalone can play mpeg, avi, and xvid direct from disk)

Recently, I've used Plus to clean up mildly corrupted streams on some vob edits and so hadn't noticed that it wasn't taking advanced settings, except for AVI files.

So are your referencing your experience to AVI or MP2. In other words do you work with mp2 to mp2, and are you getting preview and advanced settings on mp2 re-encodes.

I just ran another test, and a 10 minute captured clip, where I reset the sample audio 44 > 48 and video resolution - and none of the changes were in the out file (per G-Spot), but the sync went out.

Are the later versions of TE buggy, and should I use an earlier version? which one?, where?

I appreciate your test, but I question your result, being that when I upsampled SVCD 480x480, I did not get the out sync. So what video resolution of an mp2 did you up sample.

I also found in my testing, that in 80% of the cases, just playing the new file, showed the out sync, but occassionally the out sync did not show till after the TDA conversion to vob files and DVD format.

[Clearline]

I checked out and downloaded the free encoder that Hartford mentioned, and it looks very good, per their website.
The proplem is that it is not a ready to run program, and needs to be called from other programs, which at the moment is all over my head.
I still have to work up to writing a avysnth script.