h.264 hardware

[QuadraQ]

I was just wondering if anyone has any news on what's happening on the h.264 hardware front. Specifically if there are any players (DVD, hard-drive, portable, etc.) out there that can play h.264 mp4 files? If not is there anything in the works?

[unmei]

there are sister threads of this one discussing AVC on the Sony PSP and Apple iPod Video :)

[QuadraQ]

That's true, those two do play h.264 video of a certain format. I guess I'm more interested in set-top boxes, like DVD players. Both of those are portable devices, with limited support for h.264. I'm hoping that there is (or soon will be) a set-top box that I can use to play h.264 mp4 files. Right now I can use my modded xbox, but even it has limited support.

[DarkZell666]

I've come across a DVD player that handles the "NeroDigital format" (call this the "public" substitute name for H.264/AAC lol).

I think it was the top notch model DP-1100 from KISS (really expensive though)
have a look at it : http://www.kiss-technology.com/?p=1100&v=users
Others exist, I'm pretty sure of it, but at what price ? :/
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Edit : DP-1100 found on amazon.fr for 129€
http://www.divx-compare.com/lecteur-KISDP1100-KISS-DP-1100.htm?refptn=8

[QuadraQ]

Could you tell me the specific model number? Thanks.

[DarkZell666]

just edited previous post for u :p

[QuadraQ]

Well $150 isn't THAT bad. Still it doesn't say anything about MPEG-4 AVC support. Since I don't use Nero Recode (yet) I don't know if the mp4 files it makes are ASP or AVC level. Also what kind of support are we talking about? Baseline, Main Profile, etc.

[charleski]

Nero Digital doesn't necessarily mean AVC... The whole standard is really poorly formulated, and Ahead's web site offers no help on the matter either. I'm pretty sure that 'Nero Digital Certification' just means it can decode the Nero Digital ASP variant in an mp4 container along with their proprietary chapter/subtitle systems.

TBH, I doubt we'll see hardware AVC decoders until the Bluray/HDDVD specs finally get published and the chip manufacturers know what to make.

[DarkZell666]

Actually what nero digital refers to here is AVC & AAC in MP4 I guess. (since this is what nero recode outputs by default now and I couldn't find a way of creating any ASP file with it).

Dunno if it is High or Main Profile (and I can't really tell u since I formated my PC and haven't reinstalled Nero yet =))

But, considering what charlesky has just posted ... (grr you've made me doubt now :p *still searching*)
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Just sent them a mail to ask ^^
Waiting for reply

[QuadraQ]

TBH, I doubt we'll see hardware AVC decoders until the Bluray/HDDVD specs finally get published and the chip manufacturers know what to make.

Well that's actually part of the reason that myself (and probably others) are so interested in h.264. It's basically a lock for the future of digital video in consumer hardware (Blu-Ray (yahhh!) or HD-DVD (Boooh!)) and in portable video (PSP, iPod, and more on the way) plus internet distribution (already legit using iTunes - (Shouldn't that me iMedia now?)).

[bond]

I've come across a DVD player that handles the "NeroDigital format" (call this the "public" substitute name for H.264/AAC lol).its wrong that "nerodigital" is the public substitute for h.264/aac and your own link to the kiss player is the proove, cause this player supports asp only and not avc

[DarkZell666]

Well, since nero recode outputs AVC, I find rather stupid on their behalf to write "nerodigital" in their list of supported formats :/ Especially knowing that Nero Recode only outputs AVC now (if it can output ASP I'll shoot my head coz I've been looking for such an option for ages) oO

[bond]

it outputs asp ;)

simply dont use a profile that has "avc" attached to its name

[charleski]

Well that's actually part of the reason that myself (and probably others) are so interested in h.264. It's basically a lock for the future of digital video in consumer hardware
The history of hardware ASP decoders is an example of the problems in pinning down Mpeg-4 definitions - all the difficulties with packed bitstreams, qpel and GMC are a major headache (I'm still not sure if there's a set-top box out there that can handle packed bitstreams with 2 or more b-frames).

AVC is similar with different profiles and various encoding features that may or may not actually get used in the final BR/HDDVD definition. Any chip-maker that produces an AVC-decoder right now is taking a major risk. They're certainly not going to make a chip aimed simply at Nero's Cinema-AVC profile, as the market for that is tiny and they may find themselves having invested in a chip that isn't fully BR/HDDVD compliant.

As Bond said, the Nero Digital profiles without AVC in the name are actually ASP. It's a poorly-formulated standard and Ahead needs to get their act together in defining exactly what they're talking about.

[bond]

- some devs say that packed bitstream is breaking the mpeg-4 standard because you cant decode it with a decoder not knowing packed bitstream
also it was introduced because of the useage of avi, and you cant really blame mpeg for people being so dumb using a container not handling the standard (and not for example containers which handle asp, eg mp4 or mpg which mpeg defines)
- qpel dct mismatch was indeed a flaw in the asp standard but its defacto not a problem because all of the big asp encoders use the same
- the useage of different numbers of used warppoints of gmc is spec compliant. the mismatch problems here are more a "labelling/naming issue" imho

also the asp hardware decoders are dominated by crappy private profiles (namely divx's), which lead to more confusion than they helped (from an multiple asp codecs interoperability point of view)
also something you cant blame mpeg for


on the avc side i am sure that hd-dvd/bluray will set the standard of avc-in-dvdlike players, something asp lacked

[QuadraQ]

The history of hardware ASP decoders is an example of the problems in pinning down Mpeg-4 definitions - all the difficulties with packed bitstreams, qpel and GMC are a major headache (I'm still not sure if there's a set-top box out there that can handle packed bitstreams with 2 or more b-frames).

AVC is similar with different profiles and various encoding features that may or may not actually get used in the final BR/HDDVD definition. Any chip-maker that produces an AVC-decoder right now is taking a major risk. They're certainly not going to make a chip aimed simply at Nero's Cinema-AVC profile, as the market for that is tiny and they may find themselves having invested in a chip that isn't fully BR/HDDVD compliant.

Thanks for the insightful info. I agree they would be taking a risk, so we'll probably have to wait. Still I see a growing momentum behind the AVC level of MPEG-4. Besides the Blu-Ray, HD-DVD formats ahead, we can see support from Sony in the PSP and Apple in the new iPod (plus support in Quicktime and in their professional video apps). Also I know that DirecTV is moving to MPEG-4 AVC for their HD content (and as I understand, ALL of their content eventually - test runs begin in November) and DishNetwork is also going to switch to MPEG-4, although it might not be the h.264 level. I believe it's also being used to stream content to some of the latest mobile phones.

The hope is that with all this support (MUCH more than the ASP level of MPEG-4) that many compatible devices will eventually exist.

[DarkZell666]

Well guess what ?

KISS answered me today. Such an answer ... mwahaha
-------------------------------
Me to KISS :

Hello KISS hotline,

Just one question concerning the DP-1100 :
Does NeroDigital stand for MPEG4 AVC or MPEG4 ASP in your product description ?

Since NeroRecode actually outputs MPEG4 AVC, I think your description could be confusing.

Tell me all about it.

Regards,
Etienne, FRANCE.
--------------------------
Answer from KISS :

Dear Sir,

We are supporting the Nero Recode Standard.
Thanks

Best regards / Cordialement / Atentamente / Med venlig hilsen
--------------------------------------------

well well well .... reading this means that KISS DP-1100 supports AVC doesn't it ? ;)

[stephanV]

I'm not sure why people have to look for the hard way when the answer is right in front of their nose.

Nero didn't put up this page (http://www.nero.com/nerodigital/eng/AVC_profiles.html) and the main profile page for nothing. So just look for the logo on kiss site, compare it with the logos on the Nero site and you know what the player can do.

links were broken

[SeeMoreDigital]

Yep.... NeroDigital does not just mean MPEG-4/AVC.

Simply taking a good look at all of NeroDigital's logo's, should set "the bells ringing": -

http://img480.imageshack.us/img480/7674/nerodigitallogos3fm.png


As for (std-def and/or high-def) MPEG-4/AVC playback in stand-alones..... There are no players yet.

And please don't get yourselves too excited about the KiSS DP-700 series of MPEG-4 SP/ASP/AVC players..... because Sigma still have some work to do on the chip-sets. And without fully AVC capable chip-sets, KiSS can't release anything :eek:


Cheers