iPod Video with h.264 support

[giandrea]

Apple has just released the iPod Video, with a 2.5" 320x240 color screen, MPEG4 and H.264 playback support, and TV out.
More information to come at http://www.apple.com/
Videos will be available at the new iTunes Music store with iTunes 6.

We will see what kind of DRM Apple will use, if we will be able to upload our own videos to the iPod and what H.264 features it will support.

I'm going to buy one soon :)

[DigitalDeviant]

Damn, beat to it. But I found some stats.

* H.264 video, up to 768 kbps, 320 x 240, 30 frames per sec., Baseline Profile up to Level 1.3 with AAC-LC up to 160 kbps, 48 Khz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4 and .mov file formats. MPEG-4 video, up to 2.5 mbps, 480 x 480, 30 frames per sec., Simple Profile with AAC-LC up to 160 kbps, 48 Khz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4 and .mov file formats

Glad I didn't buy a PSP :cool:

edit: found better specs.

[LordRPI]

Hey,

I just downloaded "Lost" for $2 to satisfy my curiosity as to what format Apple is selling the videos in.

QuickTime Reports

AAC (protected), Stereo, 44,100 kHz
AVC0 Media, 320 X 240, Millions
FPS 24.00


I have also used QuickTime Pro to export "Movie to iPod (320X240)" and it is indeed AVC/H.264.

[giandrea]

I have also used QuickTime Pro to export "Movie to iPod (320X240)" and it is indeed AVC/H.264.

I've also done a couple of 30 seconds tests with export "Movie to iPod", there are no settings to choose from, either for audio or for video, so no 2-pass; the encoding took a while because I'm on an old CPU, but I've found some interesting things:
- the clip is not forced to 4:3 resolution of 320x240, instead it is resized to fit in the boundaries of a 320x240 rectangle. i.e. a 640x268 clip I had, was resized to 320x134.
-it supports non-mod16 resolutions like the one above or 317x240.
-the frame rate was kept to the original one
-the bitrate was around 700 kbps (128 kbps stereo AAC + 568.5 kbps H264) for the first clip, 720 kbps for the second clip (128 kbps AAC, 593 kbps H264).
-the file extension is not .mp4, it's .m4v .
-Is it me or there is a green line at the far right of the frame? :confused:
I would like to upload this samples somewhere (but I don't know where anyway they are few MBs) so someone can test the H264 features present, like B-frames, CABAC, multi-references frames, and perhaps compare them with the PSP ones.

And I'm curious of what "H264 Baseline Profile up to Level 1.3" means. Google is of no help. :p
Thank you,

giandrea

[Sgt_Strider]

Damn, beat to it. But I found some stats.

* H.264 video, up to 768 kbps, 320 x 240, 30 frames per sec., Baseline Profile up to Level 1.3 with AAC-LC up to 160 kbps, 48 Khz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4 and .mov file formats. MPEG-4 video, up to 2.5 mbps, 480 x 480, 30 frames per sec., Simple Profile with AAC-LC up to 160 kbps, 48 Khz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4 and .mov file formats

Glad I didn't buy a PSP :cool:

edit: found better specs.

Does this mean the Ipod can decode H.264 high profile? If not, can the PSP? I'm looking to buy the device that has the "best" h.264 decoder.

[akupenguin]

It says "Baseline Profile" right in your quote. Baseline is not High.

[LordRPI]

It says "Baseline Profile" right in your quote. Baseline is not High.

As such, Baseline does not include B-Frames or CABAC. However, the profiles not having a perfect "onion peel," baseline and extended include Arbitrary Slice Ordering and Redundant Slices which Main profile does not.

[hpn]

Avoid at all costs. 2.5-inch screen is a joke (plus smart double-charging marketing approach) and "new generations" with larger screens, 3.5" then 4.5" (vertical) are expected every few months in the future (at about the same price) and you'll be very unhappy then if you rush to the stores now. Sony PSP features a 4.3-inch LCD.

[dejected_is_me]

i plan on buying one, does anyone smarter then i know what the apple h264 settings are. as hinted at above it might be possiable to reproduce in x264 or nero. (well maybe not nero, although nero did just come out with a psp setting in it profile suite) The export file in quicktime is a joke. It cant encode something it cant decode. So if its not in mov already your sol. Ive also been missing around with some programs, 3vix suite with graphedit into a mov. THe most promising is a program called "digital media converter" It seems to have presets the mimic quicktimes and it will decode anything i throw at it. The last option i came up with was import the file into adobe premier pro 1.5 and use its built in support for quicktime.(although when i tried this, premier promtly crashed). IDeally it would be nice to use megui to make a raw file with x264 and mux it into a mp4 file. The specs say it will play a mp4 file.
AS for complaints about the screen size, bahh... even the biggest screen is 4 inches top, and it was never made to replace your tv just add to it. It would be pretty cool to break out anime in the middle of class.

-dejected

[Sgt_Strider]

It says "Baseline Profile" right in your quote. Baseline is not High.

Thanks...I guess I should have read the "sticky" thread on the profile information. Damn baseline seems to be the first of the 4 profiles on AVC.

How about the PSP? Does anyone here know?

[SeeMoreDigital]

-the file extension is not .mp4, it's .m4v .I find this confusing!

I was of the logic that the .M4V file extention would denote an elementary stream.... As .M1V - does for MPEG-1 and .M2V does for MPEG-2.


Cheers

[Manao]

However, the profiles not having a perfect "onion peel," baseline and extended include Arbitrary Slice Ordering and Redundant Slices which Main profile does not.Which serve no purposes at all, at least for doom9 users.

[lexor]

ok here is a Link (http://diveintomark.org/howto/ipod-porn-conversion-guide/) to the guide on making a video for ipod using ffmpegX, shouldn't be hard to get the same settings going with x264 and all that jazz :) and as long as you stay with those settings you should also be able to have 2pass no problem.

I also think that the title of that guide is well fit for the video ipods main use in mass market.

[giandrea]

I was of the logic that the .M4V file extention would denote an elementary stream.... As .M1V - does for MPEG-1 and .M2V does for MPEG-2.

This way they have .m4a and .m4v assigned to .mp4 files which content is audio or video/audio, and they are opened by iTunes, while .mp4 is opened by QuickTime. If all those files were .mp4 there would be confusion about the content of the file (audio, audio/video, which player should open it).

[Sharktooth]

CrapTime has been updated to version 7.03. It's now able to make videos for iPod Video.

[SeeMoreDigital]

This way they have .m4a and .m4v assigned to .mp4 files which content is audio or video/audio, and they are opened by iTunes, while .mp4 is opened by QuickTime. If all those files were .mp4 there would be confusion about the content of the file (audio, audio/video, which player should open it). Eh........ It should be quite simple really!

.M4A should refer to the elementary audio only stream
.M4V should refer to the elementary MPEG-4/SP/ASP video only stream
.MP4 should refer to the combined audio and video stream

If not, what file extension actually refers to an elementary MPEG-4/SP/ASP video only stream?


Cheers

[giandrea]

If not, what file extension actually refers to an elementary MPEG-4/SP/ASP video only stream?

I understand your points, but go ask Apple... :p ;) They could have choosen other extensions like .mv4 and .ma4 ... :confused:

[Manao]

Actually, MP4 should refer to the container (having both audio and video isn't mandatory).

I've always considered .m4v to be raw mpeg4 part2 elementary stream, and it isn't apple that'll make me change.

[SeeMoreDigital]

I've always considered .m4v to be raw mpeg4 part2 elementary stream, and it isn't apple that'll make me change.Me neither ;)

And while we are on the subject of Apple product, here's an .MOV implementation I have not seen before: -

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/7986/timecodetrack1vp.jpg

Thankfully... it would seem the H.264 video and AAC audio streams in Apples latest trailers are much happier at being de-muxed and re-muxed.


Cheers

[AnimeTheme]

Thanks...I guess I should have read the "sticky" thread on the profile information. Damn baseline seems to be the first of the 4 profiles on AVC.

How about the PSP? Does anyone here know?

PSP supports AVC Main Profile Level 3.

In terms of specs and screen size, PSP is better than iPod.

And just in case you guys didn't notice, the new iPod's battery allows no more than 2 hours (1 hour more for 60GB model) of video playback. If you buy the new iPod for video, think again.

[LordRPI]

Actually, MP4 should refer to the container (having both audio and video isn't mandatory).

I've always considered .m4v to be raw mpeg4 part2 elementary stream, and it isn't apple that'll make me change.

Looking at one of their online offerings via iTMS in a Hex Editor, "MP42isom" is near the top.

[bond]

can anyone test if avc baseline profile files with the .mp4 extension play on the ipod? maybe by renaming the itunes/qt .m4v to .mp4

QuickTime Reports

AAC (protected), Stereo, 44,100 kHz
AVC0 Media, 320 X 240, Millions
FPS 24.00
what extension do these itunes bought (!) files have? .m4v or .mp4?

is the video stream protected too? (i guess so)

I have also used QuickTime Pro to export "Movie to iPod (320X240)" and it is indeed AVC/H.264. what extension do these quicktime encoded (!) ipod files have? .m4v or .mp4?

are these encoded files also reported as "AVC0"? are these qt encoded files playable in any non-apple software? eg with the haali, nero parsers in directshow or mplayer?


-it supports non-mod16 resolutions like the one above or 317x240.
-Is it me or there is a green line at the far right of the frame? :confused: i assume the greenline comes from the non-mod16 res

-the file extension is not .mp4, it's .m4v .f*ing damn apple idiots! to hell with them! i cant stand it that they dont give a damn about how extensions are handled in all other tools and what the mpeg-4 standard actually defines. i cant hear their "we support open standards" crap marketing talk anymore!

.m4v is the raw mpeg-4 part2 (sp/asp) stream
the ONE AND ONLY valid extension for the .mp4 container defined in the mpeg-4 standard is .mp4

the rest is only about idiotism, ignorance and the aim for trying to create incompatibilities with other mpeg-4 implementations (anyone remembering what sony does with .mp4 on their psp...)

all suckers!

And I'm curious of what "H264 Baseline Profile up to Level 1.3" meansthe level defines the resolution, framerate and the vbv limits (x264 can encode taking vbv into account) and surely other things too

[SeeMoreDigital]

fucking damn apple idiots! to hell with them! i cant stand it that they dont give a damn about how extensions are handled in all other tools and what the mpeg-4 standard actually defines. i cant hear their "we support open standards" crap marketing talk anymore!

.m4v is the raw mpeg-4 part2 (sp/asp) stream
the ONE AND ONLY valid extension for the .mp4 container defined in the mpeg-4 standard is .mp4

the rest is only about idiotism, ignorance and the aim for trying to create incompatibilities with other mpeg-4 implementations (anyone remembering what sony does with .mp4 on their psp...)I thought this might flip you out ;)

This is not a very bright step for Apple, as it's bound to generate even more confusion for MPEG-4 standard in general...


Cheers

[bond]

well on the other hand, who gives a damn about mini-resolution ipod video...

[SeeMoreDigital]

well on the other hand, who gives a damn about mini-resolution ipod video...Agreed....

Portable media devices are all well and good, but until they are able to support "standard-def" content (ie 720x480/576 pixels at the very minimum), they wont be making it onto my Xmas card list!

No way do I want to re-encode my media files "again" just to suit a portable device!


Cheers

[sunilraman]

hi everybody,

i respect all the intense research you all do into video encoding and i support the open source efforts in this area. personally, i enjoyed my experience compiling xine-lib and xine-ui on suse 9.3 32bit amd64 venice.

that said, i have been a mac user (as well) for a few years, and say what you will about apple, when they do something they may do it "in their own way" but they do it bloody good.

the "export movie to ipod (320x240)" feature in quicktime 7 pro works spectacularly in windows and mac.

on the mac recoding from divx or xvid is easy with the divx fusion beta2. for windows users, this may be trickier but try the 720p hidef trailers from apple's website and do the "export movie to ipod (320x240)" from quicktime7pro. tell me tthe h.264s that come out at 700+ kbps are simply fantastic. dvdrips to windows uncompressed (eg a short segment) and then via quicktime7pro to "ipod (320x240)" also look great for 700+kbps including sound.

well, just wanted to mention that. again, i respect things like nero digital and apple is only focusing on releasing simple transcoding for ipod(320x240) because, well, they want to sell ipods. but i do believe, if and when the time comes, if they want to offer say transcoding from 1080p to 480p, it will be done very very well and easily.

i prepare for "you're just an apple fanboy" flames but that's my two cents.

[Sharktooth]

quicktime is nothing special and not even nearly as good as other softwares (here's an example: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=723985#post723985 ). apple still push the .mov container and that's pure hypocrisy. Defining apple h.264 implementation "spectacular" is like saying DivX3 beats every other codec...
if apple ppl would have focused their attention on MPEG standards ONLY maybe quicktime would have been a much much better product.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Looks like another flagrant attempt by a manufacturer to re-brand a technology and claim it as their own.... While (like I said earlier) causing confusion in the process!

Maybe Doom9 forum members should get together and bombard Apple with e-mails pointing out their error in promoting/using the .M4V file extension to store audio and video.... before these new "video" iPod's hit the market in a big way!


Cheers

[bond]

dont waste a second trying to contact them

i once contacted them reporting some bugs in qt, one dev even sent me an answer. do you think they ever cared about fixing what i reported...

[SeeMoreDigital]

dont waste a second trying to contact them

i once contacted them reporting some bugs in qt, one dev even sent me an answer. do you think they ever cared about fixing what i reported...You're probably right.... I reported a few bugs regaring the beta versions of QT7. None of which I got an "recieved reply" acknowlegment for. And none of which were fixed....


Cheers

[akupenguin]

it supports non-mod16 resolutions like the one above or 317x240.
-Is it me or there is a green line at the far right of the frame?
Is that your example, or does quicktime actually allow you to encode something in 317x240?
There is no such thing as YV12 with odd resolutions. (And since they're Baseline only, that can't mean in 4:4:4). Not only is it impossible to represent such a resolution in the H.264 header, but even if you do manage to write it (e.g. in the container?) it's undefined what the playback device should do with it, and a green line should not be surprising.

[unmei]

via quicktime7pro to "ipod (320x240)" also look great for 700+kbps

..this doesn't sound spectacular at all..

[LordRPI]

@ bond

The iTMS and the iPod export from QuickTime Pro both use .m4v

I have not tried in other software, as of yet. Will do shortly.

[SeeMoreDigital]

@ bond

The iTMS and the iPod export from QuickTime Pro both use .m4v

I have not tried in other software, as of yet. Will do shortly.Regardless.... It's still a terrible idea ;)

[LordRPI]

Agreed for us. Though maybe internally this is for different strategy reasons. It's tough to tell, but we know that even insanely great companies make b0rked decisions more often than not =]

[giandrea]

Is that your example, or does quicktime actually allow you to encode something in 317x240?
There is no such thing as YV12 with odd resolutions. (And since they're Baseline only, that can't mean in 4:4:4). Not only is it impossible to represent such a resolution in the H.264 header, but even if you do manage to write it (e.g. in the container?) it's undefined what the playback device should do with it, and a green line should not be surprising.

QuickTime did the rescaling and encoding automatically, I just opened my clip with it (it was like 704x544pixels, but I can't tell you now) and selected the option to export to iPod. It kept the original aspectratio of the clip, with that non mod-16 resolution. So I suppose that QuickTime allows you to encode in any resolution.
But I can't get what you are saying. Doesn't x264 allow non mod-16 resolutions staying in YV12?

[akupenguin]

x264 allows non-mod16. But nothing allows non-mod2.

[giandrea]

OK, if you want to download an example with a non mod-2 resolution, you can get it from here: http://homepage.mac.com/settimio_perlini/.cv/settimio_perlini/Sites/.Public/iPodvideonew.m4v-zip.zip
The disclaimer says that you can redistribute the video and the link.

[Mgz]

so how about DivX/Xvid GMC, QPel and Xvid 3-warp point? subtitle, etc?

[akupenguin]

OK, if you want to download an example with a non mod-2 resolution, you can get it from here: http://homepage.mac.com/settimio_perlini/.cv/settimio_perlini/Sites/.Public/iPodvideonew.m4v-zip.zip

That video is 320x236, with an extra cropping rectangle in the MP4 header. The bottom row (which gets cropped off) is pure grey (= very bad for compression), and the 2nd row is luma only, no color.

[elbows]

My guess is that Apple decided to use .m4v as the default extension for ipod content for one reason - iTunes. Theyve set itunes to be the default app that opens .m4v files, to make it easy for the average user to just double-click .m4v files and have them handled by itunes. But in other ways its confusing to people.

I created a .m4v in quicktime 7.0.3 and changed the filename to .mp4 and stuck it on the web, it fast starts (progressive download) ok.

[bond]

the thing is its the user who should decide what he wants to open his standard compliant files with...
modifying a standard to get the user to do something specific in your interest only sucks

[elbows]

I agree. Still at least they didnt stick to .mov only and dont have silly filename & atom issues like the PSP.

[Hyper Shinchan]

the thing is its the user who should decide what he wants to open his standard compliant files with...
modifying a standard to get the user to do something specific in your interest only sucks
I agree too! *m4a, DRM protection, they don't know the word "standard", and they are still try to use *mov to spread AVC and AAC contents.
And also the features are nothing of significative, PSP beat them easily.
And we must not forget about the slow and ugly encoding of QT, it really sucks....
But maybe someone is still thinking that I-Pod is cool.......

[giandrea]

agree too! *m4a, DRM protection, they don't know the word "standard", and they are still try to use *mov to spread AVC and AAC contents.
And also the features are nothing of significative, PSP beat them easily.
And we must not forget about the slow and ugly encoding of QT, it really sucks....
But maybe someone is still thinking that I-Pod is cool.......
You don't have to forget that Apple is one of the major (if not THE major) industry players supporting standards: H264 now and MPEG-4 before it.

Just look at what Real or Microsoft do with their proprietary formats and then if Apple just decides to change an extension from .mp4 to .m4v without any change to the standard, just the extension, I don't think this disqualifies Apple as supporting standards! I think that debating on this is ridiculous!

And about FairPlay, the DRM system Apple uses on the iTunes Music Store contents, I don't recall any online Music Store not using a DRM system, and Apple decided to wrap it in the MP4 container with a different extension, m4a. I don't see what's wrong with this, do you know of any online Music Store using standard file formats apart from the iTunes Music Store??

And yes, I like my iPod, am I a fanboy?

[elbows]

they are still try to use *mov to spread AVC and AAC contents. And also the features are nothing of significative, PSP beat them easily. And we must not forget about the slow and ugly encoding of QT, it really sucks....
But maybe someone is still thinking that I-Pod is cool.......

Its not a question of cool, its that no amount of ranting by any of us or silly decisions by Apple is going to change the fact that lots of people have ipods and will no doubt get the video ipod.

In some respects the PSP spec is better, but it lacks TV out which I am especially interested in. And Sony's atom and filename issues are more of a pain than the .m4v issue, to me at least.

As you point out, Apple has in the past pushed the .mov format whenever possible. m4v is at least some progress on this front. The quicktime 7.0.3 ipod export option, which no doubt is what many mac users at least will end up using, could so easily have been set by apple to make .mov's. They got it half right, it makes .mp4's really, just doesnt call em that.

Anyway its the h264 baseline profile only issue thats been confusing & catching out people most so far.

[Hyper Shinchan]

You don't have to forget that Apple is one of the major (if not THE major) industry players supporting standards: H264 now and MPEG-4 before it.
Yes, you're right, probably also because the mp4 file format is mov based.
But introducing something like a new extension (tha was already used for raw mpeg 4 sp,asp) it's no so good. Especially because their player probably don't want to play file with the official extension (am I rigth? I-pod does the same for the m4a). And other company like Nero that are supporting MP4 don't take this freedom. Of course you can always change the extension of the file, but I don't see the difference with the psp's filename (the problem with the atoms and exc. is stupid like the limitation of the resolution, but I'm not saying that Sony is perfect ;-))
I don't need TV out because what are we talkin' about is a portable device, and the resolution of the video is "pretty" low.
And yes, I like my iPod, am I a fanboy?
Maybe.
And about FairPlay, the DRM system Apple uses on the iTunes Music Store contents, I don't recall any online Music Store not using a DRM system, and Apple decided to wrap it in the MP4 container with a different extension, m4a. I don't see what's wrong with this, do you know of any online Music Store using standard file formats apart from the iTunes Music Store??
1. I was talking about the introduction of something of no definited in the standard and (I'm not sure, i don't have this stupid drm m4a on my pc) and no compatible with other mp4 devices. From this point o
f view I prefer M$ and their wma, at least is proprietary standard.
P.S.: giandrea are you Italian right?

[elbows]

Especially because their player probably don't want to play file with the official extension (am I rigth? I-pod does the same for the m4a).

I don't need TV out because what are we talkin' about is a portable device, and the resolution of the video is "pretty" low.

Maybe.

Luckily you are wrong. Files ending in .mp4 and .mov can be dragged to the new ipods via itunes, without any problem, just so long as they are the right res,bitrate etc.

So this issue is really only relevant in the sense that the simple quicktime ipod export option makes files ending in .m4v, it doesnt affect compatibility with the ipod or prevent 3rd party encoders being used.

Anyway Ive got the PSP and the ipod and I expected Id much prefer the portable experience of the PSP due to the much larger screen. But the smaller size of the ipod makes the experience of holding it quite different, its too early for me to say which I really prefer. The TV out is better than I expected though, and when coupled with the apple remote control its not a bad experience, though they need to add on-tv-screen menus and better nagigation/use of remote buttons.

The Sony filename issue is a pain because it makes it hard for me to remember which file is which when looking at them on computer, and also a big pain for people looking to publish videos on the net. If Im making content for an ipod, its pretty easy to use a unique filename. Not so with the PSP, its a potential nightmare.

[Hyper Shinchan]

Yes, luckily i'm wrong! About the filename, why don't you just use plain filename on your pc and then change it on the psp? Or why don't you use pspvideo9 navigation menu? Of course PSP's playback is better (also if I don't have the ipod, and i'm not intentioned to purchase it) but so ipod become only a "cool", small device able to handle videos, like a 3gp compatible mobile phone, instead PSP is a portable console with audio and video great ability.
Anyway I will stop with criticism, it's just off topic.

[QuadraQ]

I've been wondering if I could use the new version of iTunes to collect and manage my h.264 mp4 files. Anyone have any experience with this?

[MuTeK]

http://elecard.com/download/ipod_clips.php

[bond]

http://elecard.com/download/ipod_clips.phpwhy do you use the .m4v extension? as people said .mp4 works on the ipod too

[Elias]

fucking damn apple idiots! to hell with them! i cant stand it that they dont give a damn about how extensions are handled in all other tools and what the mpeg-4 standard actually defines. i cant hear their "we support open standards" crap marketing talk anymore!

.m4v is the raw mpeg-4 part2 (sp/asp) stream
the ONE AND ONLY valid extension for the .mp4 container defined in the mpeg-4 standard is .mp4

the rest is only about idiotism, ignorance and the aim for trying to create incompatibilities with other mpeg-4 implementations (anyone remembering what sony does with .mp4 on their psp...)Hahahah! Nice outburst there :) But yeah, I understand your point, and I agree completely. That's why more and more people need to encode to standard compliant mp4 files playable everywhere (MP4Box!), except PSP and iPod video, so that Apple and Sony somehow will be inevitably forced to pull out software updates out of their asses for their mp4 players to handle normal mp4 files, (which ought to be mandatory if support for mp4 exists in your hardware) when they recognise the high demand for standard mp4 files.

Why does MPEG allow developers to completely screw up their standard anyway (wmv, divx, psp mp4 etc)?

[Randall]

Eh........ It should be quite simple really!

.M4A should refer to the elementary audio only stream
.M4V should refer to the elementary MPEG-4/SP/ASP video only stream
.MP4 should refer to the combined audio and video stream

If not, what file extension actually refers to an elementary MPEG-4/SP/ASP video only stream?


Cheers
Not that I don't agree with you, but I think I know exactly why Apple is referring to .M4V as the audio/video combined stream. It is because when somebody who doesn't know anything about MPEG looks at a .mp4 extension, they would probably think it is an audio file and say something like "Ohh the next generation of .MP3!" .M4A is clearly audio only, and .M4V should clearly mean video only...but we all know that it won't mean that, it will just mean that the stream definately has video but not necessarily just video, and in fact probably both audio and video.

.MP4 should be thought of as the MPEG-4 container format that can have either audio, or video, or both inside of it. Simple as that. The .M4V and .MVA make it clearer about what is contained inside the file, or what should be inside the file. The bottom line is we all know that not everyone will follow this convention. Nobody ever does. I'm supprised that it is Apple that is the guilty party this time and not Microsoft.

That said, I think that .M4V should be the Video Only naming converntion for obvious reasons. As a final thought, it just doesn't matter what the call it, as long as it works.

[Randall]

I've been wondering if I could use the new version of iTunes to collect and manage my h.264 mp4 files. Anyone have any experience with this?

Yes you can! and you can tag them with information inside of iTMS. It is slow as h3ll on my Pentium III 866 MHz box though. :p

[SeeMoreDigital]

Hi Randall,

At the end of the day I could not give a toss about any of the possible explanations Apple could come up with for doing the above..... It is clearly wrong and anybody who has any issues with this should read/follow the ISO specs.... This is "core" spec stuff :angry:


Cheers

[Randall]

Hi Randall,

At the end of the day I could not give a toss about any of the possible explanations Apple could come up with for doing the above..... It is clearly wrong and anybody who has any issues with this should read/follow the ISO specs.... This is "core" spec stuff :angry:


Cheers
I couldn't agree with you more SeeMoreDigital,
But this is just one example of how MPEG-4 complient software and hardware aren't always going to follow the standard (Sony's PSP is another example). We as end users are just going to have to accept this. As a Microsoft user I have come to terms with this a long time ago. In the meantime, we as encoders can choose to follow the standards perfectly, and hope that others will join us. That is all we can really do. :scared:

[SeeMoreDigital]

As someone who has been able to play MPEG-4 with AAC audio files in MP4, using hardware (an Xcard) and software players for around three years, it really makes no sense for Apple to start cocking things up now!

When it comes to MPEG-4 with AAC audio files, they should use either the (ISO approved) MP4 container or their own MOV container.... period!


Cheers

[Randall]

Could somebody explain why all of the tutorials about encoding video to your iPod at 320x240 @ 768 Kbps on H.264 talk about deinterlacing the source?? When the video is that small a size, it has the same effect as "Blending" fields to deinterlace. You simply don't need to deinterlace if the video is going to be at 320x240. It's just an unnecessary step that waists your time and could actually reduce quality. If you're importing video to your iPod, you DON'T NEED TO DEINTERLACE IT!!!

[bond]

the mpeg-4 standard defines only one extension for the mp4 container no matter what you place in it and thats .mp4

nuff said ;)

[elbows]

That's why more and more people need to encode to standard compliant mp4 files playable everywhere (MP4Box!), except PSP and iPod video, so that Apple and Sony somehow will be inevitably forced to pull out software updates out of their asses for their mp4 players to handle normal mp4 files, (which ought to be mandatory if support for mp4 exists in your hardware) when they recognise the high demand for standard mp4 files.

But the ipod already handles 'normal' mp4 files. I quite agree that the m4v stuff is wrong, but its only a quicktime ipod encoding filename issue, not really a format issue. The ipod happily plays .mp4 files that were created long before anybody at apple dreamed up m4v, just so long as they meet the rest of the relevant specifications.

[Elias]

But the ipod already handles 'normal' mp4 files. I quite agree that the m4v stuff is wrong, but its only a quicktime ipod encoding filename issue, not really a format issue. The ipod happily plays .mp4 files that were created long before anybody at apple dreamed up m4v, just so long as they meet the rest of the relevant specifications.No, it's not cool that they can break the standard as long as they meet the rest. If they keep on breaking standards one way or the other, sooner or later we will get mp4 files that really don't work in many players (Apple's DRM e.g.) at all. This is in direct contrast to the entire point with mp4: interoperability, compatibility and above all, usability. And that goes all the way, not just for audio and video, and subs/chapters limited to Nero's players. It's not supposed to be locked. That's why we who can follow the standards should do so, because we're the ones that have to preserve the existing standards as best we can. Whether it's developing software that conform to the standards, or using them to encode/generate material with them, it's very important to stick with the existing standards.

There's no point in following a standard if you're going to do a half assed job with it. Seriously, why continue using vobsubs when it's fully possible to do MPEG-4 Timed Text? Apple has ttxt in QTPro, and it's been there for a very long time now, even before Nero came out with vobsubs in mp4. And don't give me lame excuses like "vobsubs could be played in hardware players in mp4 before ttxt could, so we had to go with vobsubs over ttxt." Or even a more lame excuse: "avi is so incredibly popular that we have to put MPEG-4 SP/ASP in avi so that MPEG-4 stands a chance." The only reason why avi is so popular to begin with is because every video/audio codec developer is wasting a lot of time on hacks and modifications by breaking the codecs' standards in order to squeeze them down into an outdated container that limits the power of the codecs. If DivX/XviD had been in mp4 from the get-go, no one would use avi today. As a result of this standard specs breaking, users of MPEG-4 codecs have learned to love avi and depend on it and consider it awesome. That is not the case because it is not a suitable container for MPEG-4 codecs. Nothing bad about avi, it can be okay, but for MPEG-4, it completely sucks.

Hardware players have to adjust themselves to standards, not vice versa.

[Manao]

Why do you blame hardware players ?

The reason for avi being used for mpeg4 doesn't come from hardware player. If you have to go this way, blame nandub & virtualdub, not the players, because they made avi the (alas) popular standard it is nowaday.

Back on the subject : it's good that apple supports mp4. I still wonder why they had to change the extension. It must be a good reason :rolleyes:

[acidsex]

Elias, I couldnt agree with more with your stance. It just baffles the mind that companies these days take a standard and then make changes to it. If Apple isnt going to comply with the standard entirely, then why even bother? Furthermore, I think companies like Apple are just looking to use the standards and their changes to lock customers in to their products thus limiting their choices.

I wonder why so many companies bother wasting time developing standards that arent strcitly adhered to when companies like Apple or M$ just adhere to what they feel like and screw the rest of it.

The average customer doesnt know any better and continues to gulp down whatever shit these companies throw at them which in turns hurts those that actually understand what the heck is going on. I just saw today where Apple has sold 1M videos in 20 days and if it increases which I am sure it will, then we will have more non-compliant files to deal with.

I guess we just have to accept that those in power in technology dont understand Joe consumer especially when it comes to locking Joe into their product lines and profit margins.

[Elias]

Why do you blame hardware players ?Because they (the companies producing the hardware players) are the ones conforming to broken standards like avi when they've got the money to avoid doing so.

The reason for avi being used for mpeg4 doesn't come from hardware player. If you have to go this way, blame nandub & virtualdub, not the players, because they made avi the (alas) popular standard it is nowaday.It's not Avery's fault that DivX/XviD is made for avi encoding, it's the software developers' fault (i.e. DivX Networks).

Back on the subject : it's good that apple supports mp4. I still wonder why they had to change the extension. It must be a good reason :rolleyes:Yes, it's very good. And let's stick on topic. My guess is that they want to make it easier for people to differentiate what's inside the mp4 files (as mentioned before). It's a benevolent idea, but really not needed.

[acidsex]

Back on the subject : it's good that apple supports mp4. I still wonder why they had to change the extension. It must be a good reason :rolleyes:

IMO, its so they can dupe their customers in remaining locked into their product. I do video editing and gave a friend an avi file to composite with and he flipped out because it wasnt QT mov. I think companies like Apple & M$ are looking to make things difficult for the consumers to understand just so the consumer will remain with their product.

[giandrea]

IMO, its so they can dupe their customers in remaining locked into their product. I do video editing and gave a friend an avi file to composite with and he flipped out because it wasnt QT mov. I think companies like Apple & M$ are looking to make things difficult for the consumers to understand just so the consumer will remain with their product.

How can you say this? Apple adopted open standards! MP4 is an ISO standard, as is AAC and H.264, independently from the extension. If I give you an MP4 file with a .xyz extension and you drop it on MPlayer, it will recognize it and play it, if you want to play it with QuickTime, just change the extension back to .mp4! It's not that hard!

P.S. Hyper Shinchan: yes I'm Italian. ;)

[acidsex]

How can you say this? Apple adopted open standards! MP4 is an ISO standard, as is AAC and H.264, independently from the extension. If I give you an MP4 file with a .xyz extension and you drop it on MPlayer, it will recognize it and play it, if you want to play it with QuickTime, just change the extension back to .mp4! It's not that hard!

P.S. Hyper Shinchan: yes I'm Italian. ;)


It may not be hard but it is an unecessary step that god forbid someone has a ton of files to change. The whole point of a standard is to have just that. A standard that everyone abides by that helps to guarrantee compability and reliability for the consumer NOT the company.

[Randall]

How can you say this? Apple adopted open standards! MP4 is an ISO standard, as is AAC and H.264, independently from the extension. If I give you an MP4 file with a .xyz extension and you drop it on MPlayer, it will recognize it and play it, if you want to play it with QuickTime, just change the extension back to .mp4! It's not that hard!

P.S. Hyper Shinchan: yes I'm Italian. ;)

It would have been nice if Apple adopted the WHOLE stanard for AVC/H.264 and not just part of it. QuickTime only supports up to Main Profile. None of the High Profile settings such as 8x8 intra are supported by Apple. If you try to encode your x264 video with these settings, it will NOT play on QuickTime.


AVC/H.264 Profiles

The AVC/H.264 standard defines four different Profiles: Baseline, Main, Extended and High Profile (which themselves are subdivided into Levels):

- Baseline Profile offers I/P-Frames, supports progressive and CAVLC only
- Extended Profile offers I/P/B/SP/SI-Frames, supports progressive and CAVLC only
- Main Profile offers I/P/B-Frames, supports progressive and interlaced, and offers CAVLC or CABAC
- High Profile (aka FRExt) adds to Main Profile: 8x8 intra prediction, custom quants, lossless video coding, more yuv formats (4:4:4...)

[Randall]

Apple fux0rd everything up by putting audio/videdo interleave in an .m4v extension. An extension that is clearly for video ONLY. It's not the end of the world people. UNIX systems don't even use file extensions... at least not in the way that Mac and Windows do. So my point is who cares!! Microsoft has been screwing the standard for years now! You would think that everyone would be used to this sort of thing by now. :rolleyes:

See my above post for a more vaild rant against Apple.

[elbows]

Hardware players have to adjust themselves to standards, not vice versa.

Well my point wasnt to defend Apple, it was that this .m4v stuff is not a hardware issue.

As far as Im aware, the ipod meets the standards people would reasonably expect of it. I can create old mpeg4 and h264 using a variety of encoders that have nothing to do with Apple, and they work. I dont have to rename them to see them in itunes or get them onto the ipod. If I didnt own quicktime pro or read the silly apple guides then I would not even know .m4v exists in the way Apple are using it.

The .m4v stuff is a quicktime issue, its a silly choice they made, Im not trying to defend it. I only keep responding because occasionally someone says something that isnt true, that suggests the .m4v stuff is a limitation of the hardware or something, wheras it isnt, or that people need to rename .mp4s to .m4v, when they dont.

[lebsniper]

:confused: Im probably just a big newb and this may already be known by everyone...but not me.
i want to know, is there any any way, for me to get MY dvds that I OWN. onto my 30 gb ipod video. I wanna know if maybe i can use some program to rip it to the comp and then change the format and send it to my ipod. i figured itd be nice to watch a movie on it here and there, i could care less about music vids and disney tv shows as itunes offers.
please let me know i would really appreciate it!

[Elias]

:confused: Im probably just a big newb and this may already be known by everyone...but not me.
i want to know, is there any any way, for me to get MY dvds that I OWN. onto my 30 gb ipod video. I wanna know if maybe i can use some program to rip it to the comp and then change the format and send it to my ipod. i figured itd be nice to watch a movie on it here and there, i could care less about music vids and disney tv shows as itunes offers.
please let me know i would really appreciate it!Yes. There are lots of ways. My best recommendation is to use Gordian Knot, then when you got the avs file, load it manually in VirtualDub, encode to simple profile, then encode the audio to aac by using the Nero 6 dll files, and then mux the aac and avi into one mp4 file with MP4Box. Best way to do it imho. I'm considering of putting up a guide of how I do this. Will do it in a couple of days perhaps.

[hpn]

Avoid at all costs. 2.5-inch screen is a joke (plus smart double-charging marketing approach) and "new generations" with larger screens, 3.5" then 4.5" (vertical) are expected every few months in the future (at about the same price) and you'll be very unhappy then if you rush to the stores now. Sony PSP features a 4.3-inch LCD.

Seems Apple is about to introduce the "real" (whatever that means) video iPod in April, featuring a 3.5-inch diagonal display, touch-screen etc. They also "admit" that the current video iPod is not exactly capable of displaying video :)

more here
http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0602videoipod.html
and
http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=1522