Apply AviSynth filter to DVD9 using Rebuilder

[Aquilonious]

Is there any way I can use DVD Rebuilder Pro to apply a filter without encoding?

What I want to do is apply the Dustv5 filter to a DVD9 disc but without compression.

[robot1]

It's not possible.
With or without DVD-RB, if you apply a filter, you have to encode to a new mpeg2 stream.

[jptheripper]

yeah, avisynth applies the filter during an encode, so it is impossible to filter without.

[Rockas]

Well... you can write a script and preview it on Media Player... the filter will be applied on the preview you get "played" :)

[Aquilonious]

Bummer. :)

I tried the No Compression mode in Rebuilder but it doesn't apply the filter to the out put.

@Rockas - when do you anticipate the next release of RME?


@jdobbs - is there any way a feature like this could be added to RB-PRO?

[jptheripper]

@aquilonious - you missed my post. Avisynth applies the filter during the encode. If you dont encode, you cant filter

It has nothing to do with rebuilder

[Aquilonious]

@aquilonious - you missed my post. Avisynth applies the filter during the encode. If you dont encode, you cant filter

It has nothing to do with rebuilder
I was just stating what I had already tried. I understand where you're coming from.

Do you know of any other software that might do the job?

[ilpippo80]

@Aquilonious
Video data is encoded so it needs a very small space to be stored, but while the data is encoded there's no possibility to apply filters. Avisynth or VirtualDub apply every filter after decoding, that's the only way to do it, and you can't directly modify a movie without decoding it. But when you decide to decode and apply some filters, you will need to reencode it afterwards to put it back in a small space in your hard disk.

[Aquilonious]

@Aquilonious
Video data is encoded so it needs a very small space to be stored, but while the data is encoded there's no possibility to apply filters. Avisynth or VirtualDub apply every filter after decoding, that's the only way to do it, and you can't directly modify a movie without decoding it. But when you decide to decode and apply some filters, you will need to reencode it afterwards to put it back in a small space in your hard disk.

I have some old movies on DVD9 and was wondering what I could do to clean them up without compressing them. For example, even though I own Aliens, I'd like to make a "clean" backup without dropping the bitrate. There's some parts of the movie which are quite grainy.

This may be a redundant/stupid question, but does CCE, HC, or QuEnc have an option to back up to DVD9?

I looked in CCE's manual but didn't see anything.

[jptheripper]

you can absolutely reencode to dvd9, you just need to change the target sectors

however as has been said many times, filters are applied to decoded output. It must then be encoded

you can not, under any circumstance, apply a filter without reencoding using cce

if you reencode to the same bitrate as the source the result will be very similar (although filtered) but bitrate distribution may be different.

[Rockas]

@Rockas - when do you anticipate the next release of RME?

I don't know yet :)
I'm working on it but I'm having some trouble to find the 'working path not valid' bug... I just can't reproduce the problem but I still have 100 DVDs to test :D

After that... I have to take a look to the Extract Matrix feature... I found it doesn't extract the correct matrices on some special cases.

Then I'll try to implement some new filters manipulation.

I'll try to make it until the end of the week... it's not a promise... but I'll try :)

[laserfan]

you can absolutely reencode to dvd9, you just need to change the target sectors...if you reencode to the same bitrate as the source the result will be very similar (although filtered) but bitrate distribution may be different.But what happens to the layer break if you do this?

Does DVD-RB remember the original layer-break position somehow, or...what?

[Aquilonious]

I don't know yet :)
I'm working on it but I'm having some trouble to find the 'working path not valid' bug... I just can't reproduce the problem but I still have 100 DVDs to test :D

After that... I have to take a look to the Extract Matrix feature... I found it doesn't extract the correct matrices on some special cases.

Then I'll try to implement some new filters manipulation.

I'll try to make it until the end of the week... it's not a promise... but I'll try :)

@Rockas - If you want to duplicate the "Working Path is not Valid!" error, do the following:

1. Exit both Rebuilder & RME.
2. Change the working path in REBUILDER.INI to a different folder.
3. Run RME and try the Preview/Test. This should trigger the error.

Also, Rebuilder's "Prepare Mode" must be run before running RME's Preview/Test. Otherwise there are no scripts for RME to reference for video playback & testing. In other words, if the working folder is empty the error will also be triggered.

I think what's happening is that some people have re-installed Rebuilder and specified a different working path. Or maybe they have re-installed Rebuilder and deleted the old REBUILDER.INI file and did not specify the same working path in the new file as the old one.

Perhaps there's a way you can code a condition to check Rebuilder's working folder every time Preview/Test is run. First check the REBUILDER.INI and grab the "new" working folder if it's different than the old one. Once the working folder has been verified, run a secondary/nested condition and check if the working folder is empty. If it is, that can be specified as a prompt to the user to run Rebuilder's Prepare mode first.

Just an idea. I hope this helps!

@jptheripper - Pardon my ignorance, but how can I specify the target sectors?

I'm not sure what "target sectors" are. :confused:

[laserfan]

...Pardon my ignorance, but how can I specify the target sectors? I'm not sure what "target sectors" are.
This refers to specifying the target output size for your DVD. See this post in the Settings sticky:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=482090#post482090

In theory if you change this to a DVD-9 disc (i.e. a DVD+R Dual Layer) then your filtered re-encode shouldn't lose any bitrate in the process.

But I keep asking folks here about how DVD-RB handles the layer break, and have gotten no definitive responses about it.

[jptheripper]

as for layer breaks, i have seen disks with as many as 3.

i believe rebuilder keeps them where they are.

[Rockas]

@Rockas - If you want to duplicate the "Working Path is not Valid!" error, do the following:

1. Exit both Rebuilder & RME.
2. Change the working path in REBUILDER.INI to a different folder.
3. Run RME and try the Preview/Test. This should trigger the error.

But that's a situation where the error message must appear... I made it that way :)
What's buggin' me is when you have everything alright and the Error message still pops up.

[Boulder]

In theory if you change this to a DVD-9 disc (i.e. a DVD+R Dual Layer) then your filtered re-encode shouldn't lose any bitrate in the process.

You can use the same average bitrate as the original, of course, but you'll re-encode anyway. Though with DL capacity, you most likely won't notice any difference at all.

[laserfan]

I understood that, which I thought was clear enough in what I said.

What is still NOT clear to me, is what if anything DVD-RB does about the layer break.

Apparently it does nothing--I would like to see something in DVD-RB on this, so if for example I re-encode material from two DL discs into ONE DL disc I have some control over the layer break.

[robot1]

DVD-RB doesn't control layer break.
If you author a DVD9, i suggest to output to Video_TS folder, and use PGCEdit to set the layer break and create the iso.

Anyway, DVD-RB is made for DVD5 backups...

[writersblock29]

@laserfan

If you're using the Pro version, here's the scoop from Jdobbs:

Version 1.00 Release Candidate 5

Below is a summary of the changes/updates associated with this version (Pro release, freeware (without the Pro Version Enhancements, of course) expected for release in mid September, 2005):

CHANGES MADE TO PRO VERSION ONLY

- Modified the "Layer Break" recognition code to make it more aggressively find and remove layer-break related pauses.


I believe the free version also removes layer breaks, just not as aggressively as the Pro version. Neither allows you to control where a layer break should occur in the event that you're building a DVD9 project.

[jdobbs]

@Aquilonious

I've never tried it, but you should be able to do what you want...

1. Add the following line to the [Options] area of REBUILDER.INI

LAYER_BREAK_REMOVAL=0

2. Change the target size so it will be aimed at DVD-9. I would suggest adding the following line to the [Options] area of REBUILDER.INI:

TargetSectors=4050000

Then reencode with CCE (or whatever encoder) and your filters, and burn. The bitrate/size may vary slightly, but not enough to make a detectable difference. Don't forget to remove the settings after you're done or you'll have a helluva' oversize on your next DVD-5 job.

Using it on an ILVU disc that has ILVU sections near the middle of the disc might be a problem -- as there is a rule that ILVU can't cross a layer break... but as I said, I haven't tried it.

Let me know how it comes out.

[Edit] Changed the target sectors setting above to a more correct value

[Aquilonious]

@jdobbs

Trying the settings you gave me worked for a non-ILVU DVD-9 backup, the movie Labyrinth. I also applied Undot. When I started the backup, I received the prompt:

"Warning: The input directory is already small enough to fit on a DVD-5. No compression is necessary. Continue anyway?"

Of course this message is expected, as I'm sure you know, because the target sectors allow more than enough room for the source. If you were to implement DVD-9 backup as a feature, you'd have to change the message to read DVD-9 instead DVD-5. Minor point, but thought I'd let ya know. :D

Next, I will be backing up Aliens which is interleaved at several points across the disc. I will post the results when I'm finished.

Boy, I gotta love those high bitrates! :)

BTW, Here's the log from the Labyrinth backup:

[22:54:36] One Click encoding activated...
-----------------
[22:54:38] Phase I, PREPARATION started.
- CCE SP 2.70.2.1 encoder selected.
- AVS Filters are enabled.
- VTS_01: 2,009,364 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V & .AVS files
-- Processed 145,385 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- VTS_02: 29,069 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V & .AVS files
-- Processed 2,760 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- VTS_03: 1,198,897 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V & .AVS files
-- Processed 101,520 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- VTS_04: 43,697 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V & .AVS files
-- Processed 4,110 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- Reduction Level for DVD-5: 137.1%
- Overall Bitrate : 8,149/6,519Kbs
- Space for Video : 8,423,384KB
- HIGH/LOW/TYPICAL Bitrates: 8,414/600/6,519 Kbs
[22:58:28] Phase I, PREPARATION completed in 4 minutes.
[22:58:29] Phase II ENCODING started
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 0
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 1
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 2
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 3
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 4
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 5
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 6
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 7
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 8
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 9
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 10
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 11
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 12
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 13
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 14
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 15
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 16
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 17
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 18
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 19
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 20
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 21
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 22
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 23
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 24
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 25
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 26
- Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 27
- Creating M2V for VTS_02 segment 0
- Creating M2V for VTS_02 segment 1
- Creating M2V for VTS_03 segment 0
- Creating M2V for VTS_03 segment 1
- Creating M2V for VTS_03 segment 2
- Creating M2V for VTS_04 segment 0
- Creating M2V for VTS_04 segment 1
[01:42:19] Phase II ENCODING completed in 164 minutes.
[01:42:19] Phase III, REBUILD started.
- Copying IFO, BUP, and unaltered files...
- Processing VTS_01
- Reading/processing TMAP table...
- Rebuilding seg 0 VOBID 1 CELLID 1
- Rebuilding seg 1 VOBID 1 CELLID 2
- Rebuilding seg 2 VOBID 1 CELLID 3
- Rebuilding seg 3 VOBID 1 CELLID 4
- Rebuilding seg 4 VOBID 1 CELLID 5
- Rebuilding seg 5 VOBID 1 CELLID 6
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- Rebuilding seg 8 VOBID 1 CELLID 9
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- Rebuilding seg 24 VOBID 1 CELLID 25
- Rebuilding seg 25 VOBID 1 CELLID 26
- Rebuilding seg 26 VOBID 1 CELLID 27
- Rebuilding seg 27 VOBID 1 CELLID 28
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_01
- Updated VTS_C_ADT.
- Updated VTS_VOBU_ADMAP.
- Updated IFO: VTS_01_0.IFO
- Updating TMAP table...
- Processing VTS_02
- Reading/processing TMAP table...
- Rebuilding seg 0 VOBID 1 CELLID 1
- Rebuilding seg 1 VOBID 1 CELLID 2
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_01
- Updated VTS_C_ADT.
- Updated VTS_VOBU_ADMAP.
- Updated IFO: VTS_02_0.IFO
- Updating TMAP table...
- Processing VTS_03
- Reading/processing TMAP table...
- Rebuilding seg 0 VOBID 1 CELLID 1
- Rebuilding seg 1 VOBID 1 CELLID 1
- Rebuilding seg 2 VOBID 1 CELLID 2
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_01
- Updated VTS_C_ADT.
- Updated VTS_VOBU_ADMAP.
- Updated IFO: VTS_03_0.IFO
- Updating TMAP table...
- Processing VTS_04
- Reading/processing TMAP table...
- Rebuilding seg 0 VOBID 1 CELLID 1
- Rebuilding seg 1 VOBID 1 CELLID 2
- Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_01
- Updated VTS_C_ADT.
- Updated VTS_VOBU_ADMAP.
- Updated IFO: VTS_04_0.IFO
- Updating TMAP table...
- Correcting VTS Sectors...
[01:56:16] Phase III, REBUILD completed in 14 minutes.

Done.
[01:56:16] PREPARE/ENCODE/REBUILD completed in 182 min.

[Aquilonious]

@jdobbs -

Update - I've encoded Aliens with Undot to DVD-9 and it plays back fine, at least on my hdd. The real test will be to burn it to one of my DVD+R DL discs and play it back on my home player. But before I do this I want to clean up source a bit. Will keep you posted.

[Aquilonious]

@Aquilonious

I've never tried it, but you should be able to do what you want...

1. Add the following line to the [Options] area of REBUILDER.INI

LAYER_BREAK_REMOVAL=0

2. Change the target size so it will be aimed at DVD-9. I would suggest adding the following line to the [Options] area of REBUILDER.INI:

TargetSectors=4472800

Then reencode with CCE (or whatever encoder) and your filters, and burn. The bitrate/size may vary slightly, but not enough to make a detectable difference. Don't forget to remove the settings after you're done or you'll have a helluva' oversize on your next DVD-5 job.

Using it on an ILVU disc that has ILVU sections near the middle of the disc might be a problem -- as there is a rule that ILVU can't cross a layer break... but as I said, I haven't tried it.

Let me know how it comes out.


I know this is a little late in coming, but I've had a lot to do.

I tried what you mentioned with an Aliens backup and applied Deen as a filter. The DVD-9 plays back fine on my PC but on my Philips DVD642 home player it plays ok but after about half way through, there's a little white "-" that appears just to the lower left of the movie in the bottom black area (I'm using an NTSC 4x3 TV). I don't know if it's the Philips player or what. I don't have the time right now to check it out on another player.

I'm not exactly sure why you don't remove the layer break for a DVD-9 because it's automatically inserted by the burn software--Nero in my case. I'm on a limited budget right now so I can't experiemnt more (DVD-9 discs are very expensive).

While RB Pro apparently can do DVD-9 backups, I still don't feel fully confident in its abilities to do so. Perhaps others can experiment some more because it is very useful to have the ability to apply a filter to a DVD-9 without compressing to DVD-5, especially on long movies that have a lot of grain (and there's more like that than I care to think).