About standalone compatibility

[AL5030]

Can you tell me what differents between ESS and MTK standalone compatibility. And how DivX and XviD working with that compatibilities?

[manono]

Welcome to the forum-

I don't guess you've read the Tutorial (http://www.autogk.me.uk/modules.php?name=TutorialEN) that came with your copy of AutoGK. If you had, you might have come across this:

A note for those with standalone DVD/MPEG4 players. There are two standalone compatibility options available for you during installation of AutoGK (note they also available after you installed AutoGK in its hidden options):

ESS-based standalones. MPEG4 players with ESS chipsets don't work with the matrices that AutoGK uses with the XviD Codec (you don't have to understand what a matrix is, just follow the instructions). Please choose this option if you have such player. Perhaps the problem will be fixed with a firmware upgrade, and perhaps not. But you won't be losing anything, or getting a movie inferior in any way by choosing that option. If you have such a standalone player, and your XviD videos play with corruption and/or smearing, try this setting. For both XviD and DivX codecs this option also enables Home Theatre profile which is a part of DivX certification for hardware devices and which enables control over VBV buffer. Most standalones have issues with high bitrate spikes that cause internal memory of the player to be full and do not accept more data for a short period of time. This causes pauses, skips and and shuttering. Both DivX and XviD support intelligent control of output buffer overflows so that this problem can be eliminated. Make sure to turn this option on if you experiencing such symptoms during playback on your standalone. Note that its not the only possible reason for having pauses and skips - users reported that by burning movies onto DVDRs instead of CDRs playback can be dramatically improved. Also quality of DVD reader in standalone players varies a lot and cheap reader can be a reason behind your problems as well (check out Doom9's hardware forum for related discussions)

MTK/Sigma based standalones. The difference to the previous option is only usage of custom matrices for XviD. VBV buffer control (in the form of HT profiles) is enabled as well by this setting.

If you are not sure which standalone you have its safer to activate ESS support which is the most universal at the moment.

To sum up. The ESS option uses more standard matrices and also VBV buffer control to prevent bitrate spikes. The MTK/Sigma option only implements VBV buffer control.

[laserfan]

I wonder if there is a tool that can show me how this option has changed the video. I made two files, one w/Standalone support enabled (Sigma) and the other w/no Standalone support checked, and they appear exactly the same. I opened them with MPEG4 Modifier and used the "Video Info" button to look at the matrices, and the matrices are the same regardless of the AGK "standalone" option. In fact the VOP info is also the same, and Write Frame List is the same (doesn't tell me anything).

How to verify the "Standalone support" is doing anything???

p.s. even DRF Analyzer shows the files to be (at least statistically) identical.

[manono]

Hi-

Don't know for sure how you'd tell. However, the Sigma option implements VBV buffer control to limit bitrate spikes. About the only way to tell that I know of would be to find a very complex scene of explosions, fire, fog, crowd scene, leaves waving in the wind, etc. The Sigma one might be blocky, or be more blocky, than the one with no standalone support.

One of the problems with standalones is that they will stutter or freeze temporarily when they come to high bitrate complex scenes. VBV buffer control tries to keep this from happening by limiting the max bitrate possible, but at the expense of lower quality during complex scenes.

And yes, they both would use the same matrix, as the Sigma/MTK option doesn't change the matrices used by the AutoGK default. Only the ESS option does that, as ESS chipset based players can't really play much other than the H.263/MPEG matrices. I would think that the quant breakdown in DRF Analyzer would be at least slightly different. But maybe not.

And by the way, if your AVI doesn't have any complex scenes, or if it's at a low enough of a resolution that it never has to push to the 4000 (I think) bitrate limit before VBV buffer control kicks in, then there really won't be any difference between the 2. If that's the case, maybe redo the same test with a high resolution and a larger file size (2 CDs instead of 1, for example), and this time use a movie with a lot of fast action and explosions.

[laserfan]

Thanks manono for your reply--I think you've said more in your post here than I've found in all the searching I've done. For some reason there's very little info available, or discussion on this subject.

I wonder if you know Where the VBV control is actually implemented? It must be in AGK's exe I suppose.

I have never seen blockiness out of AGK I'm afraid (! :D seen a boatload out of Divx though! yuk! hate it!). I do have a wonderful test video, one scene of grass cutting (blades spinning & cuttings swirling) and another of a huge flock of white birds taking-off at once. Wreaks holy havoc on my standalone Sigma player if the AGK/Xvid size/bitrate isn't set low. But the video will stutter/freeze on those scenes if my size selection isn't "just right"--I think honestly that blockiness would be preferable but... well I think in the end that "standalone support" just doesn't work very well. :(

[CWR03]

The problem with the "standalone support" is that it can't know the bitrate limitations of your player. If its limit is low, you won't be able to completely remove the blockiness without exceeding the player's ability. As manono said, it's only limiting spikes in bitrate during complex scenes to help prevent your player from stuttering. If that works, the "standalone support" is doing its job.

[manono]

Yeah, you're right that each player is different. After changing the loader in my Sigma Based player, scenes that used to cause it to freeze, suddenly played fine, and upon doing further testing, I found it could handle sustained bitrates of up to around 7000. I had this old noisy cartoon that I had made with an extremely high bitrate average of 7000. Before changing the loader it would stop a few frames into the cartoon, completely freeze up for about a minute, play a frame or 2 a minute more into the cartoon, freeze again, and so on. After changing the loader, it rarely froze. Suprised the heck out of me. Searching on an old post of one of the DivX guys, I find that for DivX certification the player is required to handle sustained bitrates of 4000, and spikes of up to 10000 for 3 seconds. Of course not all DVD/MPEG-4 players are DivX certified:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=329951#post329951

The guy to ask about exactly how VBV buffer control works would be celtic_druid in the XviD forum, as it's his XviD build that AutoGK uses. Maybe a search in that forum would turn up some answers. len0x should know as well.

The reason you don't get blocks with 2-pass encoding if you leave AutoGK at default settings is that it does the compression test, and then adjusts such things as the resolution, resizer, and matrix to insure decent compression. If you were to force, for example, 640x480, where AutoGK might otherwise have chosen 512x384, you'll get them for sure.

[laserfan]

...The reason you don't get blocks with 2-pass encoding if you leave AutoGK at default settings is that it does the compression test, and then adjusts...Thanks guys for helping out. I'm breathing a little better now, anyway.

Mahalo!

[shadell]

Is this VBV buffer control behaviour available somewhere in the standard XviD codec settings, for those of us that don't use AutoGK? I can't see it anywhere.

[BigDid]

Is this VBV buffer control behaviour available somewhere in the standard XviD codec settings, for those of us that don't use AutoGK? I can't see it anywhere.
Yes but via profiles only.
Open Xvid encoder, click on the box right of Profile@level, level,
Most compatible is Home theatre, if you have Celtic_Druid build you will have access to MTK and MTK 6000, biggest VBV seems HDTV :)

Did

[shadell]

Thanks.

That's a strange design IMHO. I would have thought that the VBV buffer control ought be accessibly by other means. I wouldn't have known it existed if I hadn't read the AutoGK website.

While on the subject of the AutoGK website, I couldn't make sense of some of the things it said in that section:

ESS-based standalones. MPEG4 players with ESS chipsets don't work with the matrices that AutoGK uses with the XviD Codec...... Please choose this option if you have such player [sic]. .....you won't be losing anything, or getting a movie inferior in any way by choosing that option.

The question that comes immediately to mind here is: if you're not getting an encode that's inferior in any way by choosing this option, why does AutoGK use the non-standard matrices?

The mystery deepens having discovered that I prefer the results with the standard H.264 matrix anyway. In comparison, the custom one that AutoGK used introduced constant, low level, mpeg style artifact noise.

MTK/Sigma based standalones. The difference to the previous option is only usage of custom matrices for XviD.
This doesn't say what the usage difference is. Does this option not use custom matrices at all, or just use them differently?

[manono]

Hi-
Quote:
ESS-based standalones. MPEG4 players with ESS chipsets don't work with the matrices that AutoGK uses with the XviD Codec...... Please choose this option if you have such player [sic]. .....you won't be losing anything, or getting a movie inferior in any way by choosing that option.

The question that comes immediately to mind here is: if you're not getting an encode that's inferior in any way by choosing this option, why does AutoGK use the non-standard matrices?

Many believe that you can do better than the default matrices. Or at least different. In the early days of standalones, the Sigma Designs chipsets were king, and players using them played (and play) just about everything. With the rise of the cheap and inferior ESS chipsets (Philips DVP-642), came standalones that played nothing but the 2 standard matrices. Players using the Mediatek chipsets are somewhere in between as far as what they can play. My first player with a Sigma Designs chipset played just about every XviD I made using a variety of custom matrices. After it broke and I got one with a Mediatek chipset, it played many, but not all, of my earlier encodes. Depending on the player, the custom matrices may provide a "look" which you may or may not prefer to the standard matrices.
The mystery deepens having discovered that I prefer the results with the standard H.264 [sic right back atcha] matrix anyway. In comparison, the custom one that AutoGK used introduced constant, low level, mpeg style artifact noise.
There you go. Not inferior in any way. To your eyes anyway. I find the H.263 matrix unbearably soft and would rather use just about any other matrix. To each his own.
This doesn't say what the usage difference is. Does this option not use custom matrices at all, or just use them differently?
The MTK option uses the 2 custom matrices and VBV buffer control.

[jesus2099]

Hello,
Thank you for all those explanations they are very usefull. I think I am now going to use the ESS option.
Is there a way to know which chipset one's DVD player is built on ? I tried to look up mine in Videohelp's device list (http://www.videohelp.com/dvdrecorders) but there isn't this kind of information.
Tristan.

[manono]

Is there a way to know which chipset one's DVD player is built on ?
If it doesn't say over at Videohelp.com, and if it doesn't say at the company website or in your owner's manual, then short of taking the cover off to have a look inside, I'm not sure there is a way to know. Maybe if you post the brand name and model number someone reading this will know.

[setarip_old]

@jesus2099

Hi!

You mioght try sending a PM to member "SeeMoreDigital". He seems to possess a great deal of information regarding which standalone players use which chipsets...

[Chetwood]

Does this info on matrices (and their repercussions) still apply in 2008? Just wondering cause I'm looking for a standalone with USB support and the Philips DVP 5990 (MTK 1389 S chipset) I was thinking of purchasing seems to have trouble with AutoGK made xvids (lockups during playback) as I've read on a german forum. An explanation offered there is that AutoGK uses old custom matrices that don't work well on current Mediatek chipsets. Any way to verify this?