The near Future ARccOS and copy protection.

[apfraats]

The days of DVD-DECRYPTER are counted. DVD's are comming up , especially in Region 2 (thats me concerning) that have more intelligent copy protection.

It's all based on read-errors that are recorded on the master in areas where the logical playback of a original DVD doesn't come and don't cause problems. These were called 'protected areas' by DVD-DECRYPTER.

The problem is that the new schemes are more intelligent and circumvent the detected protected area as seen bij DVD-DECRYPTER. So you get 'REAL' READ ERROS.

The problem is, you can get youre copy of the disc (use Anydvd for that matter, but it's NOT free) but the contents of the sectors with READ ERRORS is very unknown and not defined.

So even when preprocessed and bad arreas are 'hidden' bij DVDREMAKE-PRO, I still see that with these discs DBD-RB-PRO has problems.

I've seen that it prepares a disc, giving final results of the prepare fase and then go to 100% CPU and doing nothing, just to mention one.

Also some rotten sectors can cause DVD-RB-PRO to behave strange, which of course isn't the fault of DVD-RB-PRO, because it is build to comply to standards.

Only these 'problem' discs can cause strange things in DVD-RB to happen.

So I have seen that in the VTS_SET were the main movie was, DVD-RB-PRO suddenly was extracting STILLS. Why I don't know.... JDOBBS will surely be able to explain this.

A few examples of discs are Region 2 HITCH and Region 2 VET HARD.

Now copy protection will always be able to break. Cause finally the DVD has to play on the player.

The problem is caused by the way the read-errors are handled. Just simply throwing them away or fill them with dummy material or even blank frames, doesn't solve the problems anymore.

So maybe it's a good idea for DVD-RB to take into account these 'not 100% compliant' discs and handles them in a way that is not disturbing anything.

I also have seen over- en undersizing with these DVD's, especially when not preprocssed with DVD-REMAKE-PRO or kind of other tool.

The protection is comming closer and closer to us, so maybe it's a goopd idea to start thinking about structural solution, as far as they can possibly build in DVD-REBUILDER.

Maybe JDOBBS can get some of these ARccOS protected discs from region 2 were the newest schemes seems to be introduced.

The one and only prgramm that's constantly updated is ANYdvd. They will release a new version as soon as a new protection scheme is found.

But AnyDVD fouls bussiness bij doing something with the read-error. I don't know why problems are caused with DVD-RB, but found out, they are there.

Maybe JDOBBS can do a more in depth anayses on the problem and try to make DVD-RB full proof concerning these discs.

Now there a just a few. But soon they will be everywhere......

[blutach]

Yawn.

1. What has this got to do with DVDRB?

2. There are plenty of rippers out there which can handle ARccOS. DVDFab Decrypter, AnyDVD, DVD95Copy etc etc etc etc. AND DVD Decrypter (in the main).

3. I have answered a similar thread a Digital Digest where you admitted to making changes to the ripped disks cos you didn't like the dummy sectors (which hurt no-one and are fully MPEG2 compliant). Did you even bother to mock strip afterwards?

4. I have seen a sum total of 2 ARccOS disks in R4, which DVD Decrypter ate for breakfast and DVDRB processed nicely thank you very much.

5. An observation - gee, for $10, you sure do a lotta bitchin (please don't strike me mods :) )

Regards

[apfraats]

The problem was not the situation today at region 4. I was talking about region 2.

I also told that ripping was not the problem.

If I leave the dummy sectors in with my HITCH region 2 DVD and go and run it trough DVD-RB-PRO there are just some weird things happening.

I also stated, if you READ (but that seems to be a problem for you) that it's not a DVD-RB problem. But I mentioned it because there WILL BE MORE DISCS COMMING WITH SCHEMES THAT EVEN DVD-DECRYPTOR CANNOT HANDLE in an automated way. If you don't believe me, look it up, before you start to shoud out total nonsence..... And as you know DVD-DECRYPTOR is dead, done with, stopped because of legal action taken against the developper..... So new ARccOS schemes are no longer supported bij the old DVD-DECRYPTOR.

But what happens if I rip the disc with DVD-decryptor , do nothing about the dummy blocks and get it trough DVD-RB, it comes out at 4,8 GB !!
And I really see STILLS being extracted from the VTS where the dummy sectors are in. Kind of strange altogether.



It's the Region 2 version I'm talking about, and you can also read on the internet that the ARccOS schemes used can and even are different for each region.

If you have READ (but you just see some words and get a RED CURTAIN in front of you) i also said it's no big a problem now, but it is something to take into account for the future.

It's not about the payed 10$ (did you by the way ?) but about being able to keep using DVD-RB as the ultimate compression tool.

Cause I never have any problems with'straight DVD's anymore, but ARccOS seems to be a different story in different regions.


If you can't READ, DON'T react !


And also, if you don't know youre stuff, don't try to show off. DVDFAB is one of the worsest !! It hides EVERY READ-ERROR IT ENCOUNTERS !!!
No matter if they are ment to be there or if it's due to a scratched disc, bad disc, bad reader.... Do you want to use such tools ???
Please go ahead..... I surely don't.....

I will again do my homework from the original with DVD-DECRYPTER ripped disc. Use no preprocessing at all again, and again see what happens.

They way you think about it, was correct till some time ago.

Yes now you have seen 2 discs, but Sony is very hard pushing it's ACrrOS protection around, and they will surely keep in mind what the standard tools do today , the tools we use.

Suppose the dummy cells you leave alone are 1GB in size in the future ???
And they make some read errors in this area and use fake links so the protected area is not recognized as such. Then you'll end up with 1GB junk in youre compression pass. Is not that hard to imagine.....
And you CAN trow away DVD-decrypter, it's dead already.....

No you don't do preprocessing... No way.. You will leave the 1GB shunk of nonsence Mpeg compliant or not in youre DVD to compress.

You can really make me laugh.......

Another 6 months and maybe 75% of all new releases have more complex ACross protection.........

Then we meet again.

And try to READ, READ, READ........

[Trahald]

Ok, guys please dont make this personal.. (and 'well i didnt start it' would be an incorrect answer ;) ) thank you.

[jptheripper]

that is why a tool that completey reauthors is so valuable (thanx jdobbs)

worse comes to worse you can extract the main title, then reauthor with muxman, and merge and relink into the exsiting menu, then dvd-rb

regardless, its time to pay for a good ARccOS remover, if you use it, you should have to pay for it

[2COOL]

@apfraats

Off-topic but what does "bij" means? You have it posted in alot of threads.

as seen bij DVD-DECRYPTER.
So even when preprocessed and bad arreas are 'hidden' bij DVDREMAKE-PRO, I still see that with these discs DBD-RB-PRO has problems.

[dragongodz]

Off-topic but what does "bij" means?
i assume he means "by" since that fits. :)

apfraats - jinjin_jp already gave you options and advice on handling Hitch in this thread
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=100163
maybe you should try the second methodology. since its using freeware its not like it will cost you anything except time.

[apfraats]

I even bought Anydvd latest version. If you see it's version history VET HARD has been the latest REGION 2 DVD they updated Anydvd with.

HITCH was the one before the latest update....

It's a typical REGION 2 problem for now.

Still having problems with it.

The ripped version I have was a complete rip of DVDDECRYPTOR.

(By te way thanks to the one that was so smart to say that with bij I ment by of course, but have we gone do far down that even spelling mistakes are taken as TOPIC ?)


The decrypted version by DVDDECRYPTER is NOT DVD-COMPLIANT.

Just loading into into DVD-REMAKE PRO was giving the report 'Revoring cell information' exaclty in the VOB that the original read-errors were in.

I just can't get this DVD right. It can be played on stand alone player and POWER-DVD however, but they are not strict.

If I use DVD-REBUILDER with CCE SP, I get strongly oversized output.

Not the fault of DVD-rebuilder. I do not want to suggest that.


So for now I can just make a backup on DVD by removing all other VTS's (in fact empty all cells in it) and it fits. Leaving the not fully compliant stuff in there, cause the DVD-players aren't so strict.

But I'm afraid for new DVD's that will sure come and have to be go through DVD-REBUILDER.

That the result of DVDDECRYPTOR was not ok, was also proven by DVD-LAB-PRO which I bought also. Imprting the VOB (which was worked on by DCDdecryptor of read errors) and demuliplexing it to audio and video delivered a mgpeg video stream that stopped playback after the first cell.

This is not the right forum to search for answers, but just see people shouting things they obviously do not know a lot about and even say to me I was offensive to DVD-RB is not right.

I love DVD-RB. Its the best compression utility for me ever seen.

But I was just concerning about the near future.

I even will rent GITCH again and try ANYdvd with it.

You can discuss what has to be in a ripper and was has to be in DVD-RB.

But now these stupid ARccOSS protection schemes especially in region two are just starting to make things worse. And they will be worse as the future continues.

[int 21h]

...
I even will rent GITCH again and try ANYdvd with it.
...

I hope you're not implying that you rent these movies and copy them. We're discussing backups entitled under fair use (or whatever your country's equivalent is), not wanton piracy.

[Trahald]

The decrypted version by DVDDECRYPTER is NOT DVD-COMPLIANT.

what do you base this on.. (btw, im not saying you are wrong or right.) a test from dvd-remake pro isnt the bar. (remember that the original disk with the read errors and the ArccoS on it IS dvd-compliant or else it should be pulled from shelves)

[apfraats]

I hope you're not implying that you rent these movies and copy them. We're discussing backups entitled under fair use (or whatever your country's equivalent is), not wanton piracy.


If you don't know the laws in different countries, do not try to act wise, cause it makes you look just stupid......

Where I live (The Netherlands) it's even stated in all laws concerning copyright that EVEBODY can LEGALLY MAKE A COPY OF ANY DVD/CD that they even do NOT HAVE TO OWN !!!

So if you try to state out something, first be sure you know something about LAWS OF COPYRIGHT in the Netherlands before saying things that sound quite stupid to everybody living here........

IT'S NOT LEGAL to do PIRACY, but making a copy for strict PRIVATE USE IS PERFECTLY LEGAL !!!

So I'm NOT doing anything wrong here...

We just don't have the stupid laws in what's called the 'FREE' America.....

We pay extra taxes on our empty media, that covers (a part of) the loss of the author's income. By paying these taxes, we are allowed TO COPY EVRYTHING WE CAN LAY OUR HANDS ON, CONCERNING AUDIO/VIDEO media !!!

Software IS NOT falling into this category, and you may NEVER make a copy of it.

Just AUDIO/ VIDEO copy has to be for PRIVATE USE, so you may not make copies for anybody else as for yourself, you may not sell copies, and even not give away the copy.

[apfraats]

what do you base this on.. (btw, im not saying you are wrong or right.) a test from dvd-remake pro isnt the bar. (remember that the original disk with the read errors and the ArccoS on it IS dvd-compliant or else it should be pulled from shelves)



I agree, it looks DVD COMPLIANT because it plays.

But strictly seen there is a level of standards a DVD has to comply to.

I don't know this material in dept. But there a red, yellow, etc. -book standards and so forth.

If you come somewere near the lowest level, having READ-ERROR'S in sectors is sure not compliant that that LOW LEVEL standard....

That's this is normally not a problem, will not say it's compliant.

I agree, that I have to do a more in depth testing of these DVD's, as here in the Netherland you see almost all latest DVD's having protection based on read-errors. And I agree, that if DVDRAMKE-PRO days 'RECOVERING CELL INFORMATION' is no defintely saying something....

I't isn't a compliancy testing tool.

But with straight on DVD's, there are never these messages.

I have to find out where what is wrong.

Even DVD-LAB-PRO cannot demux the VOB's properly, so there just seems to be something not completely ok.

We just have had all the problems with Sony protected audio CD's.
They did play in most stand-players, but refused to play in everybodies car-stereo. We go to far off topic now, but a lot of people did return the cd's to the shop. Which seems logicall to me.

[jptheripper]

well its sounds like ARcoOS works.

dvd lab pro, rebuilder, etc.. can only do what they can figure out. If you have issues with compatibility with copy protection measures, take it up with the studio and/or disk makers.

In there minds, the original works, and that is all that matters. If you want a backup, buy a second copy.

I realize in your country it is legal to make copies. However, it is not the job of the disk manufacturer to facilitate this practice, or even make it possible. In fact, b/c the majority of their clients are not premitted, it is understandable that they want to protect their product.

However, if there are producing something that is out of standard, take issue with their product, not with the generous software developers here that are trying to help us.

Please stop wasting their time.

This is not the place for it.

[apfraats]

The general idea was just to point out that ACrrOSS is just something to take into account for the tool developpers.

If there comes a time that all discs have (more advanced) ACrrOSS protection, everone will still be able to make their backups too.

It'sd just now I notice ACrrOSS is causing problems. The first versions of it didn't.

Looks to me it's usefull for the tool developpers to take it into account.

As the majority of discs use ACrroSS it just make their tools more useless.

By the way CSS was also indended as a copy protection. I suppose youre glad 'we didn't go complaining to the makers, studuos' about it, but there were tools to deal with it. ARccOSS is just the same all over again.


If I was a developper which I aint, I at least would want my tool(s) to be used as much as possible.

[wmansir]

There are several reasons why DVD-RB does not perform any type of copy protection(CP) bypass. The main one is that it is illegal in the US to create/distribute/look at/think about too long/etc any method of bypassing CP, or at least the studios think so. Since the author is located in the US, it would put him in jeopardy to incoporate and distribute such methods into DVD-RB.

You say DVD-RB should "take into account these 'not 100% compliant' discs and handles them in a way that is not disturbing anything." There are many many ways to be "not 100% compliant". Some of them are harmless, some are from CP, some are genuine errors. It would take a lot of effort to determine which was which, considering CP is an evolving art and often tries to mimic genuine errors.

Legalities aside, it makes much more sense logistically to let the CP busters bust CP and DVD-RB rebuild DVDs. As you noted, CP is evolving quickly. It would make little sense for jdobbs to add the large task of keeping up with CP to his todo list. DVD-RB is among many programs that require "clean" input, due to the legal issues described above, so there are, and will continue to be, ripping programs that remove copy protection to deliver "clean" input for these programs. It is much more effecient to have a few ripping programers figuring out how to "clean" CP sources, than to have every program that handles DVDs doing the work.

[jptheripper]

... DVD-RB is among many programs that require "clean" input, due to the legal issues described above, so there are, and will continue to be, ripping programs that remove copy protection to deliver "clean" input for these programs. It is much more effecient to have a few ripping programers figuring out how to "clean" CP sources, than to have every program that handles DVDs doing the work.


a perfect response. I couldnt agree more. Asking Rebuilder to deal with copyright issues is like asking the car manufacturers to deal with and properly handle bad gas.

[influenza]

A few examples of discs are Region 2 HITCH and Region 2 VET HARD

hmm must have missed something when making a backup of vet hard. Besides a fake/missing vobid there was nothing there. And I just used dvddec with check for copy protection off. ;)

[int 21h]

<snip>

This is all quite interesting to me, because the EU copyright directive, in force as of September 2004 (via Dutch Copyright Article 29a), specifically states that effective technical measures that prevent acts granted under the copyright act are protected. That means that you are not allowed to circumvent an effective protection mechanism (in this case CSS) to exercise your right of private copying explicitly granted to you earlier under the copyright act.

This is the exact Article referenced in BREIN v. Teledirekt (although admitedly Teledirekt was guilty of distributing a mechanism to bypass effective technical measures not of the bypass itself).

Further, since film distributors use a copy protection mechanism (CSS, arccos, etc.) they are not eligible to apply for reimbursement paid by the media tax levy.

[apfraats]

hmm must have missed something when making a backup of vet hard. Besides a fake/missing vobid there was nothing there. And I just used dvddec with check for copy protection off. ;)


Youre right. I did VET HARD without VET HARD problems too, finally. But if you go to the site of ANYDVD, you see mentioned they released their latest version because of VET HARD. WHY ? I just mentioned what I've read there, and trust on their information given. You have to start somewhere.

[apfraats]

This is all quite interesting to me, because the EU copyright directive, in force as of September 2004 (via Dutch Copyright Article 29a), specifically states that effective technical measures that prevent acts granted under the copyright act are protected. That means that you are not allowed to circumvent an effective protection mechanism (in this case CSS) to exercise your right of private copying explicitly granted to you earlier under the copyright act.



If this should be true, that means that taxes payed on empty media ARE ILLEGAL !!

It's one of the two. Or PAY TAXES on empty media and make use of the PRIVATE COPY right.
Or don't allow users to make copies (by disallowing anybody to circumvent CSS amongst others, which are so easily cracked I don't consider it a copy protection anymore) AND DON'T RAISE TAXES ON EMPTY MEDIA.

I even asked wuestions about making copies to BREIN and STICHTING THIISKOPIE and they don't make a problem of it. They even aren't interested in PRIVATE USERS making PRIVATE COPIES. They also HAVE NEVER sued anyone for this. And even an EU-law is not the same as a Dutch law. The EU doens't have laws, the merely are guidelines. Each country can decide in which way and to which extend they adapt these 'guidelines'.

I openenly asked BREIN and STICHTING THUISKOPIE, and they didn't make any problem of it. Even downloading movies already cracked and music isn't against the LAW here. You can do it as much you want. But you just aren't allowed top UPLOAD to others.....

[apfraats]

There are several reasons why DVD-RB does not perform any type of copy protection(CP) bypass. The main one is that it is illegal in the US to create/distribute/look at/think about too long/etc any method of bypassing CP, or at least the studios think so. Since the author is located in the US, it would put him in jeopardy to incoporate and distribute such methods into DVD-RB.



I agree on you totally. The task itself should be for the ripping programm.

But as it is now, the problem is that ripping programms insert dummy sectors.

I have noticed that these dummy sectors can give DVD-RB a hard time.

So I won't ask that DVD-RB circumvents copyprotection. But if it was capable od handling dummy sectors (which have nothing to do with copy protection) that would also be nice and just not illegal.

Just this evening I found out how to do the job.

1) Ripping the DVD with some ripper that replaces read-errors (as far as I know there aren't ripper that inserts fully compliant VOBU's containig correct cell header info and content)

2) Using DVDREMAKE the recover cell information and remove the dummy cells. These dummy cells are NOT compliant. You see this when you try to play back them in DVDREMAKE-PRO, the playback stutters.

3) Even inspect the first cell referenced to. I found out that one or more VOBU's in this cell also can contain Rubbish. If you remove these VOBU's all problems are gone.

4) Saving the DVD with all the dummy rubish gone and even the first not correct VOBU's of the first cell gone that is referenced as starting point.

After this you have a fully compliant DVD structure with fully compliant contents.

So it were the first VOB UNITS of the referenced starting cell that causes problems. DVD-REMAKE-PRO can easily remove this. Just do a 'SPLIT CELL' while you see the first VOB UNIT containing movie and audio info.

I tested compliance by using the DVD as input for DVD-LAB-PRO which just had to cut some bytes of the audio stream, but was finally compiling a complete DVD with menu, without any problems.

[int 21h]

If this should be true, that means that taxes payed on empty media ARE ILLEGAL !!

It's one of the two. Or PAY TAXES on empty media and make use of the PRIVATE COPY right.
Or don't allow users to make copies (by disallowing anybody to circumvent CSS amongst others, which are so easily cracked I don't consider it a copy protection anymore) AND DON'T RAISE TAXES ON EMPTY MEDIA.

I even asked wuestions about making copies to BREIN and STICHTING THIISKOPIE and they don't make a problem of it. They even aren't interested in PRIVATE USERS making PRIVATE COPIES. They also HAVE NEVER sued anyone for this. And even an EU-law is not the same as a Dutch law. The EU doens't have laws, the merely are guidelines. Each country can decide in which way and to which extend they adapt these 'guidelines'.

I openenly asked BREIN and STICHTING THUISKOPIE, and they didn't make any problem of it. Even downloading movies already cracked and music isn't against the LAW here. You can do it as much you want. But you just aren't allowed top UPLOAD to others.....

The taxes are apparently paid to cover all of the content out there that is not protected by a content protection system, although the Dutch Minister of Justice has implied that they may end up abolishing all of those taxes anyways.

Unfortunately, effectiveness is not defined by you, but by the copyright article itself. It is defined as: protection process, such as encryption, scrambling or other transformation of the work or other subject-matter or a copy control mechanism, which achieves the protection objective. That seems to apply to CSS.

I guess since these are all concessions for the original EU copyright objectives, the Dutch are in no hurry to locally enforce them. That doesn't stop a company from taking you to civil court though. Even if it was enforced, it doesn't appear as though you can be jailed for offenses under 29a, (32a is a different matter however, dealing with software as you originally described)

Just because a law is not enforced does not mean it does not exist. It will only be a matter of time before US copyright owners begin leaning on authorities for more enforcement in .nl (i.e. Operation Fastlink raided members of the EU, including students at Utwente)

[apfraats]

I guess since these are all concessions for the original EU copyright objectives, the Dutch are in no hurry to locally enforce them. That doesn't stop a company from taking you to civil court though. Even if it was enforced, it doesn't appear as though you can be jailed for offenses under 29a, (32a is a different matter however, dealing with software as you originally described)

Just because a law is not enforced does not mean it does not exist. It will only be a matter of time before US copyright owners begin leaning on authorities for more enforcement in .nl (i.e. Operation Fastlink raided members of the EU, including students at Utwente)

This can be true but as I've stated NOT FOR PRIVATE USE !!!

If you were right, such forums like these should even be forbidden by law.

Even DVD-RB wouldn't be a topic, because you only backup stuff that's not fitting on youre empty DVD's.... And that material is all CSS protected (not to mention the very very few exceptions).

So all should be forbidden.


I'm only interested in what's real. Laws that are not enforced are not real to me, and nobody does worry about them.


What about DVD-players ????

The even sell them region free here. And if they don't the manufacturer simply 'leaks' the few digits you have to press on youre remote to the Internet to make it region free.

Never heard of any legal action that has been taken about that one.

Do you really think it even can be stopped by enforcing stupid laws.

We in the Netherlands have the good sence to NEVER enforce laws that can't practised.

And agin, even BREIN is stating out you may make copies. Without any restriction. They even don't mention 29a.

The may and come and sue me with 29a. I don't disable the original protection of the priginal DVD. And that's what's ment by 29a.
I think a judge would even laugh when someone is trying to make a case against me....


If you would make and sell a DVD-player with digital video out without Macrovison or CSS youre in OFFENSIVE of 29a.

[int 21h]

If you make a dvd player without CSS, I doubt you'll have much of a dvd player at all.

[blutach]

It seems the sky is falling down Henny Penny.

I can see people ripping ARccOS disks all aorund the globe. Yes, the schemes will get more complex but yes, the crackers will keep up with them. No need to wring hands.

And apfraats, if you want to remove the dummy cells, just remove them and strip the titleset before you get to DVDRB. At 20kb or so, I don't bother removing them - who cares. 1Gb and I would (I had a menu the other day - The Pacifier R4 - which was 1.5Gb including 90 minutes of unreferenced "black screen" video - stripped down it was 3Mb).

As for DVD Fab Decrypter - I am perfectly aware that it automatically ignores all read errors. I am also aware that Fengtao will put in an option to turn this off. That does not invalidate it as an acceptable ARccOS ripper on DVDs without real read errors.

As for your venomous and personal attacks, they have simply been ignored. I been attacked by worse than you.

Regards

[Buckwheat2005]

I don't know this material in dept.

Amen. I just ignore your posts.

[wmansir]

@Buckwheat2005

That is not a good way to start your membership at this forum, although I see you joined some time ago. Hopefully you have spent that time becoming familiar with the forum and it's rules, including the rule to be nice to other members.

Unfortunately this thread is not the best example of that rule, which is partially my fault. In the future I hope everyone remembers to keep their posts civil and, hopefully, constructive. Even with those who you disagree with.

[wmansir]

...
Just this evening I found out how to do the job.

1) Ripping the DVD with some ripper that replaces read-errors (as far as I know there aren't ripper that inserts fully compliant VOBU's containing correct cell header info and content)

2) Using DVDREMAKE the recover cell information and remove the dummy cells. These dummy cells are NOT compliant. You see this when you try to play back them in DVDREMAKE-PRO, the playback stutters.
...
A free alternative method, that will save you time and disc space, would be to use DVD43 to remove the CP on the fly, then use VobBlanker to "rip" the DVD to your hard drive. The "rip" will take longer than a strait DVD Decrypter rip, but should save you time overall. Besides saving space by only having 1 copy of the DVD on your HD, you can strip unwanted audio tracks and video segments on the fly.

Also, because VobBlanker isn't really designed as a ripper, I find it sometimes became unresponsive, or slowed the system down overall, but it does work.

[Buckwheat2005]

@Buckwheat2005

In the future I hope everyone remembers to keep their posts civil and, hopefully, constructive. Even with those who you disagree with.

Noted.

I was having a bad day but I gotta remember to ignore those I disagree with and remember why I come and read the forums here.

[dragongodz]

wmansir - please look at the 7th post in this thread(its by me). then follow the link i gave. as you can see apfraats has been told alternatives before but is choosing to not try them.

[luphy]

I saw no problems with the original post - it was a request, and in no way demanding in its tone.

It was helpful that others suggested alternatives - but the request is still valid - for DVD-RB to be independent of any other software except for the decrypters (since it makes it hard to debug things when people start using other third-party software to manipulate the files before using DVD-RB).

This reply to the original post didn't help matters:

"5. An observation - gee, for $10, you sure do a lotta bitchin (please don't strike me mods )"

[Trahald]

I did mention for people not to make it personal after that post. Anyways.. lets get back on topic and discuss the topic in the thread.. although there is a nice way to put it.. if you have an issue with the topic in this thread just avoid the thread. Or only reply on-topic with no personal comments or jabs or replies to jabs.

[blutach]

I am sorry if my comment was taken badly. It was made having read many other posts by apfraats about what is wrong with the world and did not singularly relate to that post.

Regards