high quality anime ripping [Archive] - Page 2

dragonlz

21st January 2002, 10:07

Damn, this thread is still going..

I'd agree to poopity poop on the size issue. I've done at least 20 anime series and 4 eps/CD seems to work really well. I'd say it's around DVD quality. Ofcourse 2 eps/CD would produce better quality but it's not that noticable and you are watching the show, not every pixel of a single frame. If you are doing a lot of rips.. you also have to consider the fact if it's worth it to use twice as many CDR's to store them.
Honestly, when you have a collection > 300 CDRs of anime. You'll have to find a good balance between size and quality.

as for "impossible to ivtc" titles: i have IVTC'ed Lain with tmpeg on a autoamtic settings of tmpeg and no interlacing was left. just dont act stupid ppl. you get avisynth's speed, you get a crappy picture. period.
You should think before posting. Do you think we are dumb enough not to try TMPG before saying it's not possible to IVTC? Ofcourse not, there are apparently some anime titles that you haven't encountered before. Maybe more experience will help to explain your ignorant comments. Also, avisynth is good because it's fast, but fast does not mean worse quality. My experiences lead me to believe avisynth is better at IVTCing than TMPG.

OUTPinged_

22nd January 2002, 14:27

ok, here is some thoughts for a dumb ppl who still dont get it.

IF YOU DIDNT DO SOMETHING WRONG, your encode will always look better when you will spend more bits into it

more bits equals to:

1. lower DRFs. if someone will argue on that, read the manual you dumbass.

2. higher resolution. now we will see a smart people who know better than everyone else that anime should be encoded in 320x so that ppl buy dvd and support bla bla bla.

3. less source blurring. you can blur different, you can use a XXX filter, you can use a crisness modulation, it doesnt matter. the filesize will get lower in general.

so you cant tell me a 320x 80mb encode will look better than 720x 400mb encode.

for those smart ppl who are comparing 180 to 230mb encodes come the next part.

more bits doesnt equal to:

1. better encode. cause some encodes are done by some smartasses who dont do IVTC and deinterlace stuff with blurring. they make encodes with 256kbit audio which is not dynamically compressed cause "it is done so on dvd and i want it to be of "100% dvd quality"

2. less noise impact. ok, you can keep noise and kill 50% of your bits for its sake. that wont help your encode. temp.smooth it, spart.smooth it, do whatever you cant to get rid of that shit.

3. less interlacing. some dvds are just impossible to reconstruct fields. and even deinterlacing the whole thing leaves the picture dirty. its your choise what you will do, but more bits just wont help you at all. interlacing sux. period.

to the guy who said avisynth's ivtc is better that TMPEG's:

you remind me of ppl who were telling me flask is the best. tmpeg's routines are:

1. processing stuff in RGB. (if you cant figure it out why it matters, just dont comment)
2. optimised for a correct IVTC, not "speed"
3. they are not perfect and terribly slow too. still tmpg is the only tool that will make you sure that no FILM parts will be deinterlaced.

2eps/cd vs 4eps/cd. ha-ha-ha. buy yourself a glasses man. :P

poopity: raise the resolution then :) you do compres stuff, ne? same as with mp3. some things sound good at 128kb, some dont. but noone is shouting "make everything in 128k, cause i cant hear the difference on my 2$ headphones" well excluding the smartasses of course.

btw alot of ppl cant encode an ep properly, so they have to use more bits. so no 4ep/cd encodes for them :-E

Hanty : size vs quality relation isnt direct. i didnt write that. "artifacting and crap" dont relate that matter. btw, bitrate did not change anything in there, you ahve got the same file, ne? put codec errors aside.

ssj: tried it. 1.7 sux. 2.2 is ok to use. still not as good as tmpg. but if you dont have time for it, decomb2.2 is a way to go. interpolation is F-ed tho :(

triffid:

>filesize has quite a bit less to do with quality than you think
no, it has exact impact on it as i think. see earlyer crap.

>The quality of my current encode is coming out at around 180MB per >ep, but looks better than any 250MB eps that I have seen
buy a better glasses then. dont make people laugh at you. and dont post stupid things.

>They automatically assume that if something is small it is low >quality, and if something is big it is high quality.
not automatically. "xxxmeg/ep = crap if was ripped by a dumbass", remember? and there are alot of these. ph3ar =)

>PS I have also IVTC'ed Lain with TMPG's automatic settings and it >left interlacing.
>I'd be glad to know exactly how you did it.
np man, just use auto deinterlacing optins. check all, correct manually. i am doing lain rips atm (sloowly), so i guess you will be able to check them after some time.

still, you can either deinterlace or blur+decimate. if someone could write a field muxing decimation plugin for a 30fps>deinterlaced smooth 24fps pans, it would be great :(

for smartases: deinterlaced pan doesnt mean smooth :P

poopity again:

>for a 23 minute episode:
>30-60megs--> 320x240
>61-150megs--> 400x300
>150+ --> 512x384
man, dont make such a statements, they are way to varying.

btw, a question to you: do you know a filter which will smooth the effect of xsharpen without blurring the image? ssmoothers dont help :(((

more to triffid:

>for the record my 115MB trigun ep has no noticable differences in >quality from the other episodes.
from the other 115 mb trigun eps? ;) or other eps encoded by you? make youself clear man.

just kidding

btw people, try out ssmoother HQ. its slow, but it kix.

Hanty

22nd January 2002, 14:47

Yes, bitrate did change things in there, without affecting filesize.

OUTPinged_

22nd January 2002, 15:39

that is funny then. bitrate just controls BR size. absolutely nothing else. the filesize was left unchanges so i guess it was 2x drf all the way. have anything except codec errors changed?

try encoding that thing with antishit on and lower (1130) bitrate.

dragonlz

22nd January 2002, 16:32

@OUTPINGED_

I'm sorry to say, after reading your post, all i have to say is HUH? 90% of your post is total bs. i'll just quote a few lines from your post:
to the guy who said avisynth's ivtc is better that TMPEG's:

you remind me of ppl who were telling me flask is the best. tmpeg's routines are:
1. processing stuff in RGB. (if you cant figure it out why it matters, just dont comment)
2. optimised for a correct IVTC, not "speed"
3. they are not perfect and terribly slow too. still tmpg is the only tool that will make you sure that no FILM parts will be deinterlaced.
1. processing stuff in RGB doesn't make it "better quality", it all depends on how the algorithm is defined.
2. what the hell is "correct IVTC"? If you mean perfect IVTC, it doesn't exist. How do you know TMPG is optimized for "correctness" and avisynth is optimized for speed? First of all avisynth has several different IVTC plugins that you've never used in your entire life.
3. again no proof, just bs

If I remind you of one of those people that told you flask was the best, then you remind me of one of those people who was asking "what is a divx?" 'nuff said.

takeru

22nd January 2002, 18:54

yes, tmpeg doesn't always do ivtc perfectly. a few anime's i encoded tmpeg got confused when there were too many parallel lines in the scene, and kept switching back and forth between even and odd fields each frame even though the scene never even needed any field changes. manually fixing these parts wasn't fun...

OUTPinged_

22nd January 2002, 19:35

>after reading your post, all i have to say is HUH?

yeah, you have to say that much :/

>. processing stuff in RGB doesn't make it "better quality",
read your quote of my post :) "if you cant figure it out why it matters, just dont comment"

>. what the hell is "correct IVTC"?
its when a tool can make you a correctly ivtced FILM stream. have you tried to use any AVS plugin on plain FILM source, just for testing?

"incorrect" there will mean when plugin is selecting a wrong field, altho right field is available nearby.

>"? If you mean perfect IVTC, it doesn't exist
rtfm man. read youre posts haha. perfect ivtc = all the frames are restored. you can make it easy if source is 100% FILM. FF is a inverse pulldown process too if you dont know that.

and dont tell me i wrote non-telecined sources can be restored with ivtc completely. i'm not 100years old yet.

>How do you know TMPG is optimized for "correctness"
i asked the developers and read what they wrote. tmpegs routines were written with being as good at guessing which filed to use as possible. it still has some speed optimise afaik.

>and avisynth is optimized for speed?
first, there are several iVTC DLLs for avs. wizard's is optimized for fastest pure FILM source (with small NTSC deinterlacing routine) restoring. greedy is optimised for real time hdtv ivtc in a first place. decomb is in a development but it is selecting the same fields as wizard's dll and applying area based deinterlace on top of "bad" frames.

>3. again no proof, just bs

./me hands dragonlz a cookie

good guess man, all this thread is a big bs, everyone is comfy with his tools and is defending them at no cost.

and what exactly is the bs in that?

>not perfect and terribly slow too
cheers to takeru - check the "not perfect" part. and if mr.dragonlz is considering tmpg fast i wonder what kind of hw he has :/

>tmpg is the only tool that will make you sure that no
>FILM parts will be deinterlaced

ok, here comes more:

consider another tool which IVTC's FILM parts ok (except FF, it doesnt catch pattern changes :), can calc threshold as good and isnt coded for SGi workstation. filter chains dont count.

and more about decomb: there could be written a tool which is better than tmpg. tmpg is still missig frame candidates on hard parts. decomb seems like a good candidate, but they should at least fix smart deinterlacing and make it more configurable.

takeru: try to use avs dlls, they would suck at that even more. the program really cant get a lok at the whole picture, it just calcs nearby pixels and that case cant be helped. you can use blending tho.

poopity poop

22nd January 2002, 21:01

Pooping feels nice :)

manono

23rd January 2002, 01:59

and more about decomb: there could be written a tool which is better than tmpg. tmpg is still missig frame candidates on hard parts. decomb seems like a good candidate, but they should at least fix smart deinterlacing and make it more configurable.

As you mentioned-it is still in development. When finished, Decomb should be better than TMPGEnc and a heck of a lot faster. But the deinterlacing algo is and has been configureable. If you find (as I have) that the default setting (15 ATM) is sometimes too strong, and deinterlaces some good frames turning them to crap, then you might try 30, which I have found for anime to sometimes be better. The help file tells how to configure the FieldDeinterlace.

Since you seem to know what you're talking about (if you strip out the flame portions of your posts), feedback from your tests would be much appreciated down in the AviSynth Forum.

Since we're all in this for the same thing I think (a better and easier and faster IVTC-Deinterlace for anime), then lets keep this discussion on the higher more polite level it deserves (can't believe I just said that-I love a flame war as much as the next guy, but there are too many knowledgeable guys contributing to this thread to get sidetracked by non-issues).

OUTPinged_

23rd January 2002, 12:24

>When finished, Decomb should be better than
>TMPGEnc and a heck of a lot faster.
good news. the current (v2.2) is pretty good at hitting the right fields, still not as good as tmpg but close. but it still misses interlacing with low (bare to none) luma difference. guess there isnt much to do about anyway.

the smart deinterlacing is not working "right" in interpolation mode, but it seems mr. Graft knows that so we will hope it will be fixed.

>>decomb seems like a good candidate, but they should
>>at least fix smart deinterlacing and make it more configurable.
>But the deinterlacing algo is and has been configureable
field selection is not. and i would like to tweak thresh of "giving up" on some titles. the default is set wisely, but it seems no tool can be as perfect as the dvd remastering guy's stupidity.

>. If you find (as I have) that the default setting (15 ATM)
>is sometimes too strong, and deinterlaces some good frames
>turning them to crap, then you might try 30, which I have found
>for anime to sometimes be better.

hmm... i didnt get it. to me it felt like lowering thresh would make deinterlaced areas smaller. *checking docs* hmm... *checking more docs* :/

ok, i suck. this means i cant figure out if a frame has less deinterlacing or the motion map denoising works as it should :/

anyway, interpolation dont work in 2.2 and low threshold shouldnt kill my current encode (with blending and medium resolution (608x)). more feedback will be as soon as it'll finish (5h).

and mamono, dont forget flaming dumbasses is fun :) contribute too man :-) the size vs quality part deserves a good laugh.

manono

23rd January 2002, 18:13

Hi OUTPinged-
You gotta keep checking the AviSynth Forum or his website. He dumped Decomb 2.2 and there have been 2 versions since then. I didn't understand why he dumped it (I don't mean I disagreed, but that the reason was over my head), but the things you mentioned could be it.

So you're not saying that it "over deinterlaces" and turns some good frames bad, right? You're saying that it "under deinterlaces" for your current material and some interlaced frames slip through? Then you're right-lower the threshhold (but maybe check if some good frames turn "bad", i.e., lines turn jagged and maybe the scene will start to "shimmer". He's still tweaking this thing, and is turning out improved versions daily. One thing I discovered while testing recently (which perhaps you already knew) is that sometimes the DVD itself is screwed up, and often you can't blame the IVTC unless you've checked the source.

Heck-even some of your statements go over my head.

dont forget flaming dumbasses is fun

Stop that-these are all honorable people. You know-he developed this thing as a way to improve his video capture encoding (as did Tom Barry (GreedyHMA)), but from the responses to his thread I think he's discovering that there may be more anime encoders than vid cap guys around. So ask him (as I have) to work next on a better encoding-post processing filter for smoothing-denoising to help us clean up our encodes better. I guess you've discovered that Smart Smoother-2D Cleaner combined with Warp Sharp-Xsharpen-Unsharp mask just don't do much in medium to dark areas. I'm getting tired of putting in all this time encoding and finding them not perfect.

OUTPinged_

24th January 2002, 11:25

>He dumped Decomb 2.2 and there have been 2 versions since then. I >didn't understand why he dumped it

first, he messed up all the deinterlacing part.

second, sometimes it misses a completely clean field and choses heavily interlaced (and deinterlaces it).

ok, that may look not so awful but if mr. graft is saying its like that, then it should be :(

>So you're not saying that it "over deinterlaces" and turns
>some good frames bad, right? You're saying that it
>"under deinterlaces" for your current material and some
>interlaced frames slip through?
both wrong. that is why it was funny :) stil, my test scene (from GiTS) had some freaky frames (note for dumbasses: i was testing _deinterlacer's_ threshs, not ivtc's) with very smooth gradients between fields. guess i had to choose something more regular for that.

>sometimes the DVD itself is screwed up, and often
>you can't blame the IVTC unless you've checked the source
yeah, i blame deinterlacers in these cases. these idiots in ADV are lazy and cant get a decent progressive master so they use pure interlaced vhs's and are maikng a lame attempts to recover that stuff.

well they are better than me at that, but i aint get paid for my efforts :)

>Stop that-these are all honorable people.
the word dumbasses wasnt used for the developers(in most cases). it was used to label some "smart" rippers in this thread who dont read what they do write after what they write and after they see me commenting their bs.

>but from the responses to his thread I think he's discovering that >there may be more anime encoders than vid cap guys around
wrong, but vid cap guys are happy with current soft afaik. and anime rippers were silent before (a year ago)because they all were smartasses and did anime rips in 352x so they didnt have to ivtc. now their pride of making 80mb 352x episodes is ruined and they are flaming all over the board.

lol i just love to insult that kind of people.

>Smart Smoother-2D Cleaner combined with Warp
>Sharp-Xsharpen-Unsharp mask just don't do much
>in medium to dark areas

so true. the most disappointment for me was a warpsharp, after poop has nearly worshiped it. it sux in long term and high thresh. and you dont need it on a clean stuff to usually.

the lesser evil of them all at the moment seems to be spartialsoftenmmx with (3,4,20,false,false,4,4,6,8) thresholds. at least that does work on animes with not detailed bg. my dnr skills suck so i use the threshs these software developer guys recommend. still that stuff F's up in dark areas too. and it is terribly slow. and sometimes i wonder if it is working at all. i was trying to get the source to rip off the dnr part but didnt succeed. Mathias's page is kinda down and links to old board dont bring me anywhere too.

manono

24th January 2002, 17:50

Hi OUTPinged-

did anime rips in 352x so they didnt have to ivtc.

Funny you should say that. Ordinarily I don't download others' work, because it's generally so crappy. But recently I got some, and it's often still what you said. You'd think that people that are putting stuff out there to share would take more care in their rips. If it's video cap-fansub stuff I can almost understand it, but if it's off a DVD, then there's just no excuse. But I don't think any of the people that visit Doom9 are guilty of making that crap, and especially those that have contributed to this thread. Like I said before-these are honorable people trying to make the best possible rips given the still imperfect tools we have to work with (I wasn't referring to the mastering houses before when I made the remark about being honorable, but to the people here).

but vid cap guys are happy with current soft afaik.

I'm not so sure, otherwise why would both DGraft and TBarry release IVTC-deinterlacers to improve the situation, when their primary interest is video caps? Neither realized the importance of their tools for anime rippers until it was brought to their attention. I'm sure there are many vid cap guys also trying to make the best possible encodes, and vid cap encoding presents problems similar to and often greater than ripping anime from DVDs. Blight has recently discovered Decomb (as he did GreedyHMA earlier), and he's a heavy hitter in the vid cap field. Decomb will be incorporated into DVD2SVCD soon and a lot of SVCDs are made for vid caps.

the most disappointment for me was a warpsharp

Well, p p has backed off of the high settings he recommended originally (and I credit him for that). Part of the problem is not only do you have the mosquito noise, block noise, line noise from the original source material (DVD), but the damn encoding adds more of its own, and at the moment there's no post processing filter to clean the stuff up. DGraft realizes the problem, and may tackle it when Decomb gets finalized (that's why I suggested we bug him about it).

It looks as if no one else wants to talk to you anymore. Does it make you wonder why? Look-I didn't see anything obviously wrong about the statement about making good rips with smaller file size (and I'm not talking about 320x240 80MB episodes and neither were they). I think the point was that with proper filtering you can rip to the same resolution and get away with a somewhat smaller file size. Personally, I don't put 4 eps/CD either (I put 3 at 512x384), and I'm inclined to think that all things being equal, 3/CD will look better, but for sharing, the smaller size is faster to transfer. To each his own, but I don't think it's cause for your violently sarcastic responses (you're pretty good at it, but this isn't the place for it). What's the cliche? You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar? So be nice-invite them back in :)

But things are looking up, and in the not too distant future we should have some better tools to work with. Nice talking to you OUTPinged.

dragonlz

24th January 2002, 20:37

OUTpinged_
It was funny reaing your responses. I'm kinda tired of responding to your arrogant bs but here it is anyways.

>>. what the hell is "correct IVTC"?
>its when a tool can make you a correctly ivtced FILM stream. have >you tried to use any AVS plugin on plain FILM source, just for >testing?
>"incorrect" there will mean when plugin is selecting a wrong field, >altho right field is available nearby.
My point is that there's no "correct IVTC" or "incorrect IVTC". The algorithms are always aimed to select the right fields. It can be called "better IVTC" and "worse IVTC" but you can't refer to a sucky IVTC prog. as "incorrect" as you don't know how IVTC algorithms work.

>rtfm man. read youre posts haha. perfect ivtc = all the frames are >restored. you can make it easy if source is 100% FILM. FF is a >inverse pulldown process too if you dont know that.
When I talk about perfect IVTC, i don't mean force film. And when was the last time you've seen a 100% FILM source? Most of them are 97%-99%. IVTC programs do catch most of the telecined parts, but they are not perfect. Selecting the wrong fields, missing the right fields occasionally happen and therefore making the final result not "perfect".

>tmpegs routines were written with being as good at guessing which >filed to use as possible.
right, developers will ofcourse say their stuff is the best. I agree TMPG has a powerful IVTC engine, but I don't think it's the best out there.

>>and avisynth is optimized for speed?
>first, there are several iVTC DLLs for avs. wizard's is optimized >for fastest pure FILM source (with small NTSC deinterlacing routine) >restoring. greedy is optimised for real time hdtv ivtc in a first >place. decomb is in a development but it is selecting the same >fields as wizard's dll and applying area based deinterlace on top >of "bad" frames.
You wrote something very informational but gave answer to my question, avisynth dlls are not just optimized for speed(not that it's a bad thing to have). Decomb is a good example, it's a tad slower than all other tools, but produces better results so people still use it.

>./me hands dragonlz a cookie
/me takes that cookie and shove it up your ass :D

>good guess man, all this thread is a big bs, everyone is comfy with >his tools and is defending them at no cost.
This thread was not a big bs, it became a big bs after you started being stupid. You are the one "defending your tools at no cost" and disregarding facts.

>cheers to takeru - check the "not perfect" part. and if mr.dragonlz >is considering tmpg fast i wonder what kind of hw he has :/
When did I say I considered tmpg fast again? oh by the way, 1.63 Mhz Athlon XP.

OUTPinged_

25th January 2002, 01:28

sweet, more dragonlz fun!

>My point is that there's no "correct IVTC" or "incorrect IVTC".
lol man, read youre prev posts

>you can't refer to a sucky IVTC prog. as "incorrect"
>as you don't know how IVTC algorithms work
you are sure better know of what i do man. one more stupid line. i know pretty good as they guess stuff. i can write a sucky one myself.

>When I talk about perfect IVTC, i don't mean force film.
sure, else you would look stupid. ne?

>And when was the last time you've seen a 100% FILM source?
>Most of them are 97%-99%
lol man, you have got me. sure that fbi logo (or the one with ugly winged horse) in the beginning makes big difference.

>I agree TMPG has a powerful IVTC engine, but
>I don't think it's the best out there.
name it. decomb aside, its in early devel stage and not on par with tmpg fiels guessing yet. mr Graft will tell you the same.

>You are the one "defending your tools at no cost"
>and disregarding facts.
i like the way the word "facts" sounds. atm they are just your statements and they arent facts.

i did said tmpg is the best ivtc'ing tool (non-pro one) and you are trying to put me wrong. i dont mind but dont sound stupid and just say "here and there tmpg fails and xxx marks fieds rifgt". be more mature man. you sound like a kid sometimes.

>When did I say I considered tmpg fast again?
man that was ritorical question. and i dont care what stuff do you buy. honest.

ok, back to mamono talk.

>Neither realized the importance of their tools
>for anime rippers until it was brought to their attention
and that is exactly why i am flaming here :)

>Blight has recently discovered Decomb

heh. still decomb is promising. i have encoded a bit with it and it has only minor errors. still there is something wrong with field selection when it cant be sure 100%, and as i will be able to tell whats going on clearly i wont post it to DG.

>why would both DGraft and TBarry release IVTC-deinterlacers
sometimes they have fun with badly mastered dvds too. thats why.

>You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar?
>So be nice-invite them back in
sure man. i just dont catch shit flies whith you-know-what. that discussion is pointless. i told that already. ie i am just flaming everyone who makes posts with statements.

look, noone is asking everything. they are just stating they are cool. ok, i state they post crap. they dont seem to like it.

>and at the moment there's no post
>processing filter to clean the stuff up.
correct. spatials suck. i was trying to separate luma and chroma threshs but it didnt help. i have asked a sshq devel to make me a tweakable thresh for each pixel "ring" around source pixel. if toying with luma/chroma threshs difference while excluding the radius1 pixels from calc will help, we will have a winner :) i have a "semi two-pass" anime only filter in mind too.

sorry guys, its 3h night and i am getting even more dumb and slow :(

laterz

dragonlz

25th January 2002, 03:06

>you are sure better know of what i do man. one more stupid line. i >know pretty good as they guess stuff. i can write a sucky one >myself.
yeah you are right, they are guessing stuff, what's important is how they do it. dumbasses like you can write a sucky one? is it going to be something like if (flicker>prevfram.flicker) { this->dropframe(); }? great algorithm, maybe you can release it for $$$.

>lol man, you have got me. sure that fbi logo (or the one with ugly >winged horse) in the beginning makes big difference.
now you really start to sound stupid, some movies use video for intro and some other parts. don't quote me unless you know wtf i'm talking about.

>name it. decomb aside, its in early devel stage and not on par with >tmpg fiels guessing yet. mr Graft will tell you the same.
greedyHMA, doh!

>>When did I say I considered tmpg fast again?
>man that was ritorical question. and i dont care what stuff do you >buy. honest.
lol, another stupid line from outpinged, i thought u wanted to know what kind of hw I have. what happened now?

>i did said tmpg is the best ivtc'ing tool (non-pro one) and you are >trying to put me wrong. i dont mind but dont sound stupid and just >say "here and there tmpg fails and xxx marks fieds rifgt". be more >mature man. you sound like a kid sometimes.
haha, this is getting kinda funny, you say I sound like a kid. you should read your own posts before clicking on "Submit Reply".

getting back to the issue of ivtc tool. You said tmpg is the best one, IMHO it's not. TMPG did fail on a lot of the rips for me, try it with Love Hina DVDs, you'll see what I mean.

anyways, keeping this up will be a waste of my time. last post from me in this thread.

Hanty

25th January 2002, 13:28

Well, then do tell what the best ictv tool is for anime ripping.

OUTPinged_

25th January 2002, 13:43

>greedyHMA, doh!
rofl.

man you should at least try the tool before you make statements. greedy is only for realtime captures, it is missing fileds very often.

and if you cant get good results out of tmpg it doesnt mean the tool is bad.

>TMPG did fail on a lot of the rips for me, try it with Love Hina DVDs
wierd, worked like a charm for me. did you use HK ones? tmpg is not "fire and forget" type. mess with it. it gives good results after correction.

ok, back to serious for mamono again.

>and I'm inclined to think that all things being equal,
>3/CD will look better,
at least somebody is watching his rips after making them. whee.

the flaming has started just because some ppl stated 4ep/cd rips are "better". i "disagreed" (ok, stating everyone there is idiot may sound a bit too much but i am tired of seeing ppl to respond with "you suck" to my polite posts. that wasnt the case in that forum, but things dont change over time :(

>but for sharing, the smaller size is faster to transfer.
sure, but if you can afford yourself 180mb eps, you should afford 230mb eps too.

the 50mb rm's were a good thing for a modemmers. they were 1.5 times smaller than similar quality avis. that kind of difference did matter. 33% increase in a filesize isnt that much.

4eps/cd imo should be used when:

1.ripping very compressible series.
2.cut op/ed.
3.ripping of long (52+) ep series, altho that can be doubted.

still, the 33% increase in filesize does matter.

as for ivtc, i'm not a masohist and i dont like messing with tmpg too. still, i dont see anything decent competition on anime ivtc scene except decomb. it has smart deinterlacer built in, that is a big advantage. sometimes threshholds in tmpg should be tweaked a loads of times to get a result :(

ok, as dragonz pointed, that disscussion is over. see you in future threads ppl :)

cheers to dragonlz.

respect to manono.

poop: managed to make warpsharp work good enough so it doesnt make the picture worse. still, its not a ultimate solution and perfomance drop is scary.

takeru

25th January 2002, 17:05

hmmm... 3eps/cd, 4eps/cd. actually i think it should just go by how long each episode is after cutting out the opening and ending. say, for 4eps/cd, if each episode was less than 23 minutes, it will fit nicely into one cd with bilinear. or, 3eps/cd with bicubic. but if the episodes are 24 minutes or longer, then its best to just use 3eps/cd to maintain quality. after ivtc, this seems good to me.

poopity poop

31st January 2002, 20:43

all this 4CD/ep vs 3 CD/ep won;t matter too much anymroe will it?

DVDs!! I predict encoders will make use of DVDs to release 1gig/episode with both audio's and subtitles WITH interactive menus(I recommend roxio video pack). In fact I'm surprised that adx and other SVD releases DON'T have interactive menus and both audio's It is tough to have both audio tracks with only 795 megs to work with...but that will all change, that will all change

<looks forard to DVDs!>

jrmillerUT

31st January 2002, 22:36

@Poopitypoop,

I agree with you totally on the DVD subject. Until prices come down significantly on the DVDR's then it will not be cost effective for plain DVD conversion. I predict that anime encoders will go the route you have suggested and I also see people encoding 2-3 full length movies onto each DVD.

Another Q, when you're using Gknot to generate an ECF only, do you load your .d2v? I guess i'm having kf probs between Gknot and Nandub that i don't usually have.(read below)

@everyone else

This is kinda off topic but i'm having a few problems with my keyframes. When i do a first pass unfiltered in nandub it picks up the scene changes no prob. (alternate method, multiplier of 33) But when i run a first pass with smartsmoother rad 7 strength 30, and a warpsharp of 40, nandub is missing many keyframes.
I looked at the stats file in GKnot and randomly noticed that the Luma values are now much much smoother due to the smart smoother, and since the alternate SCD works on luma diffs, do i need to start using the normal SCD at 99% or so? I'm encoding the new DBZ episodes and the source contains many mpeg2 macroblocks so the filters are non negotiable and i don't really want to manually insert kf's since my .d2v is at 29fps and i'm serving nandub with avisynth and decomb1.9 for IVTC puposes.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

James

poopity poop

1st February 2002, 01:56

I don't usualy load my d2v, but that's because I ONLY use Gknot for ecf creation (for kf insertion)and bitrate calc. I know many of you use it to make another stats file and whatever.

If you want to load your d2v file(and are doing anime), you may have to make another d2v file, one with FORCE FILM turned on so you can see if it is inserting keyframes and stuf in the right place.
Remember(if you are doing anime this is):
your d2v should be 29.97 fps
your new ivtc'ed tpr should be at 23.976fps
which makes your stats file 23.976fps

makeing a new d2v with force film will allow you to view the correct frame when you load the d2v file into gknot.

Just a trick.

In responce to the 2-3 movies/DVD. Totally, when I get a DVD burner I will make SVCD's with about 2gigs/movie, and Divx at about 1gig/movie and maybe 2gigs for a long movie. Of course it all depends on the length, but oh man...when those DVD burners come down in price, there will be high quality, high file size, shit flying around!

jrmillerUT

1st February 2002, 02:00

This is kinda off topic but do you know if the X-box can play VCD's and SVCD's?

takeru

1st February 2002, 04:01

you can get the pioneer dvr-a03 for like 376$ now. dvd-r's you can get for like 2.95 for 4.7gig or 5.95 for 9.4gig double sided. kinda wierd though. to burn the double sided discs you have to flip it upside down to burn the other side with the pioneer :) brings back old memories of flipping 5.25" floppies to use the other side... aaaah. around april pioneer is supposed to step up production of dvd-r's, so hopefully the prices of the drives and media will drop like a rock.

jrmillerUT

1st February 2002, 05:04

can the DVD-R's burn CD audio media? I don't have another bay free on my comp. :-(

UHT

1st February 2002, 07:29

no, they cant

Crucio

24th February 2002, 20:45

sorry if this has been brought up already, but i encode a lot of anime with nandub. Many times i have used aviutil to go through each frame individually and fix up with paintshop pro.
Now i was wondering, i saw how smart smoother and warpsharp improved the image, but i noticed that the lines were not looking perfect. I know that the image was blown up, but i am experimenting with flaxen cartoon tool and have found that withing reasonable parameters, that filter can really enhance a video. Ofcourse if the filter is overused, the video is ruined.

My typical program list is, if im not editing frame by frame, dvd2avi, tmpeg for auto ivct, vfapi, nandub

in nandub the filters are, area based deinterlace, smart resize, smart smoother, warp sharp, the if neccessary, the cartoon tool.

peace out to the other animation freaks :)

Crucio

24th February 2002, 20:48

a pixel base of about 70 along with default values seems to do a good job (look at the inverse map)

poopity poop

24th February 2002, 21:11

I was the first one to say to use smart smoother and warp sharp together, and I think I should be the one to totally wipe it off the face of the planet....read on

I'm working on a new site that is explictly for anime filters(noise reduction). It will be ready soon, not sure when.
SMART SMOOTHER AND WARP SHARP is good, but it sucks compared to the other filters out there. BELIEVE ME! I'm testing them

From my "preliminary test"(sorry that sounded gay but whatever) the number 1 best filter to use is a close tie:(note: one one!, much much faster)
2d_celaner optimized for performance:
http://sauron.mordor.net/dgraft/2dcleaner.html
and
Smart Smoother HQ
http://sauron.mordor.net/dgraft/hiq/smoothhiq.html
There is also an area based smoother that can be used in conjuction to fill anime characters with their original color:
http://www.maven.de/ code>area smoother

I just feel its my duty to dispell that the once good method of SS and WS together is good. Its...ok.. but its so FREAKLING slow and the 2d cleaner is freaking great. PLEASE check these filters out they ARE better...I invented the SS/WS method you've got to believe me :)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Read on for the best settings I've found:

Just to spoil the findings of my tests, and because I feel obligated to have people stop using the picture destroying method of SS/WS here are the best settings I've found so far. Of course figure out what each setting does and apply it to your anime that you are encoding, but these seemed to work well in all senarios of anime(high background, large drawings of character(no detail), and normal frames)

Smart smoother HQ:
dia=7
threshold=50 (I think)
Amount=125
Weighted average on
weighted average wtih difference on

2d cleaner:
note: Did not do much testing with this yet:
defualt settings worked fine

for Area based smoother there are too many oiptions to remember without having my website in progress with me where I'm writing this but use this filter to accually fill in entire color blocks of averaged color where the animated characters have been colored in. You'll see what I mean once you get it.

JUST PLEASE DON'T USE SS/WS! Its awful compared to these fitlers, and slow!

ThePanda

24th February 2002, 22:55

Hi, so far I only finished reading the first page of this thread but I wanted to post this now b/c I have to go:

1. I use DVD2AVI to open the vobs, RGB mode, I crop with it, making sure to crop out those annoying flashes on the top and bottom on every scene change in many animes.

2. I load the d2v through VFAPI into VirtualDub

3. In VirtualDub, I do IVTC(adaptive) in the frame rate menu. filters: I do deinterlace(blend), temporal smoother(2 to 5 depending on fuzziness etc), resize(640x480 precise bicubic A=-0.60)

4. Then encode that at 1350kbps Divx4 2-pass w/ default maximum postprocessing.

5. Then mux the AC3 in Nandub.

This seems to give good results for me. I IVTC in addition to the deinterlace(blend) filter because I hate how every IVTC filter misses a lot of those annoying horizontal interlace lines, no matter how good it supposedly is, and I figured that it wouldn't do too much damage to the large uniformly-colored areas of most anime anyway. I remember trying SmartDeinterlace before, but I forget why I stopped using it. It sounds good, so I guess I will try it again so I can preserve better quality in most of the frames.

To the person who said that just deinterlace alone is better than IVTC for everything: I think that is wrong because I thought I remembered reading that some frames are interpolations of two others, so if you do the wrong method it won't fix that and you will be left with 2 images on one frame, which will make it look bad and take up more bits (or something like that).

Another personal note: If the DVD has both English and Japanese audio, I mux both AC3 tracks in Nandub (with the proper delay). I render the resulting AVI in GraphEdit to make an English graph and a Jap graph, and I add the DirectVobSub filter to the jap graph. I put the subtitles and the AVI w/ both languages in a subfolder called "data", then I just click the english.avi or jap.avi graph.

I hope any of this helps, I've been experimenting on the anime for awhile :)

NinjaGara

25th February 2002, 17:05

Poopitypoop

I tested the filters you mentioned and excellent!!!
Nothing to do with SS and WS!

If you need I-Author, perhaps purpleman.cjb.net is still hosting it.
Some week ago I downloaded it from there and I tried to use it but I got a security error message... I still dont know why...

But, by now, I have enough to do with nandub!

takeru

25th February 2002, 17:55

i did some testing on 2d cleaner and smoother HQ. actually, i messed with smoother HQ before you mentioned it. smootherHQ does give decent results, but its pretty slow too. 2d cleaner is very fast, but really kills fine details, so its best to use with cartoons/anime with not much detail, like simpsons or something. currently testing area smoother.

poopity poop

25th February 2002, 17:57

I've recieved an e-mail from klaus Post(the maker of SS HQ) and he has stated that a faster, optimized version of Smart smoother HQ is in beta and on its way. I feel that it will make it one of the best anime noise reducing tools out there. I may be beta testing it and I'll keep you posted here.

NinjaGara->
There is a "cracked" dll that needs to be copyed into your windows/system directory to replace the old one that gives you that message. Check the textg files that came with the rar you downloaded

NinjaGara

25th February 2002, 19:04

yes, SS HQ is very slow but gives better results than SS and WS.
I hope Klaus finish an optimized version of this filter soon.

poopity poop

You already got it!
Well, I did that! But for some reason that didnt work...
I will try it again, it seems that I made a mistake...

poopity poop

25th February 2002, 19:12

please set up your private messages so we can discuss the dll. I tried to private message you but you have not set it up yet :(

Cracked things and warez are not allowed on doom9.

NinjaGara

25th February 2002, 20:00

Well, I changed my options and now I can receive private messages!

OUTPinged_

26th February 2002, 01:27

Heh, its me again =)

A pity dragonz isnt there, he wrote such an interesting posts..

well whatever.

poop:

Heh, I glad you have realized that combo gives unsatisfactory results. SSHQ and 2dc are better, but! you havent tested them, they dont work good on default settings and you have to tweak them individually for each encode. It kills background on default settings. Try to reduce thresh to 1 on sshq and you will see the amount of detail lost. I personally wouldnt go over 25. 50 is overkill.

as for 2dcelaner, you shouldn state it works "good" on default too. The purpose of the filter is to blur the picture. I personally used 2dc on one encode (1x1, t21) and it gave tolerable results (BAA r1 dvd, same quality as 1st r1 eva dvd). Still it is smoothing too much.

for light luma noise you should really use temporalsoften(1,10,1), it doesnt smooth picture in that case.

My point on this is:

SPATIAL SMOOTHERS ARE EVIL! Use them only as the last resourt.

btw, i have tested a beta of sshq1.2, and the filter gives a whooping 2fps on p3 machine. Well isnt that cute? make it two times better and you will be able to actuallly use it.

poopity poop

26th February 2002, 02:36

I have to disagree with everythgn you said respectfully.

SSHQ works well and does not smooth out details as much as you lead on. That's the point of the weighted and weighted with difference options., and the 2_d cleaner does not smooth sharp area's at all, as long as you set them correctly. Simple as that.

I do agree with you that you must tweak each filter for each encode...sort of. I encode Kenshin, they are made be the same people and have about the same amount of noise from episode to episode, so I will pick a settings and stick with it unles I notice that they are becoming too smoothed which I doubt will happen

breathtaker

26th February 2002, 07:20

because this is a anime topic ill post my question here. ok i did 2 other anime dvds and this one is my third and i am useing vdub and i have alot of blur and blocks in my picture . i used sshq,warpsharp,2d_celaner and some others but they looks all the same i still cant get rid of it. what else can i do?

poopity poop

26th February 2002, 22:06

well that is a bit vague. Are they messed up artifacts in the encode or is it just blurry?

If its blurry its because you are using too many or too high of filters setings. I hope you are not using all of those filters. Pick one, I recomend SSHQ if you don't care about speed, or 2_d cleaner optimized.

If you are getting encoding artifacts, you should use anti-shit

Crucio

26th February 2002, 23:56

damn...
"ThePanda" Let me give you some pointers, ok?

First off, rip your movies in YUV. It is what they are and divx is optimized to support yuv. RGB will slow you down. Another thing. Do not crop in dvd2avi! Dvd2avi doesnot give accurate results and is slower.

Next, DONT use VirtualDubs IVCT. Tmpeg or avisynth, hell, even aviutil are better solutions than VDUB!!! Also, for anime, really you should be doing ivct manually, but if not, then use tmpeg/avisynth.

Next, the reason IVCT is important is, TV is interlaced. It displays 60 fields/sec. When those fields are combined they are 30fps. But, there are 6 extra frame inside of 30 to make up for the flicker you would get in NTSC video at only 48fields/sec. On the computer, the monitor is progressive and has a higher refresh rate. Thus, the video does not look jerky when cut down to 24 frames. It actually looks better. A good ivct will eliminate most interlacing problems too. which brings me to my next criticism:

DONT EVER EVER EVER EVER USE DEINTERLACE: BLEND!!!!!

the best filter you can use, if your too lazy to go through the anime and deinterlace/ivct manually (paintshop pro and aviutil) is to use area based deinterlace : and uncheck blend. You must set it to interpolate. If you dont, then you suck :)

anyways, back to this shizznit. Poopity poop. Do you really consider yourself an expert ( im not making fun of you im just curious) I am positive i found those filters at a site besides yours first im sorry to say :(. You were in my knowelge the first to bring them to this board though :)

I would like to know what encoding group (isonews) you belong to, maybe we can chat in #nandub on dalnet, anyways.

Have you ever gone frame by frame to fix anime?

Also, about the filters.I was encoding fatal fury and experimenting with the cartoon tool. at a base of 70 it looks very nice, also, i cant see why you dont like the warp sharp way. I have tried those other filters. they are good, but maybe an 8 direction sharponer is better. Actually If you want incredible quality, simply hook your HQ progressive scan dvd player to a HDTV upconverter, then a signal strengthener, a video stabilizer and then to a pinacle dc2000 video card.

Im just joking, not many people are that rich :(

I think that the only way that you will ever fix up a video is to work with the source. A dvd just cannot be considered a source. Some companies have good mpeg2 encoders, but even with a noise reducer, you just cant fix them. Like dbz movie 1. In the red, omg, there was so much pixelization :(

ThePanda

27th February 2002, 04:27

Originally posted by poopity poop
And I really haven't been following the posts about ivtcing and such...but whoever said ivtcing is a waste on anime is a fool. There are two ways you can get rid of interlacing: ivtc(the best and most proper) or deinterlace filter(discard field 1 or 2). Blending or duplicating is looks ridiculous. But you can accually get good deinterlacing results if you discard field 1 or 2...try it I'm serious

of course you have to watch your frame rate, because ivtcing in tmpeg gives you 24fps...which is optimal

You can just discard one field and then the interlacing is all gone? Does this make the vertical resolution 1/2 of what it was before, so you could encode at like 640x240 and do a resize player filter to stretch it on playback?

manono

27th February 2002, 05:06

Hi-

You can just discard one field and then the interlacing is all gone?

Yes, it will be all gone (but if you have some sort of blended fields source, then you still might be stuck with some ghosting). But this is the purpose of the VerticalReduceBy2 Command in AviSynth. And by resizing before encoding, you don't have to use your player to resize. But there's a huge drawback to knocking out every other field and then resizing (the fast deinterlace method in GKnot) and that is you frequently introduce the shimmer-flashing that all anime encoders hate. So I would not recommend that method.

Edit: 2 days later it was brought to my attention that the VerticalReduceBy2 deinterlacer doesn't take one of the fields, but blends the two together (thanks ws). So that may lead to ghosting, although it does get rid of the interlacing well enough. What poopity poop was proposing is possible in TMPGEnc. as well as with the SeparateFields-SelectOdd (or Even) commands in AviSynth. That also gets rid of the interlacing, but may lead to shimmer-flashing in some cases. Sorry for the misinformation.

For more on the subject, along with pictures go here (http://www.engr.orst.edu/~sheareni/deint/deintfaq1.html)