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Old 8th March 2005, 15:55   #11  |  Link
Teegedeck
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spyn
no but it don't seems to work good with anime :

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65938
Because of an errand pixel I wouldn't discard a feature that saves... let me see (/me performing comparison) - more than 4% of bitrate for me.

You do know that better efficiency like this leads to lower quantization and thus higher level of detail in two-pass?

Let me try to set these misconceptions about cartoon mode straight by performing the comparison that you neglected in favour of listening to hearsay:

This is how XviD typically looks in cartoon mode, compared against normal mode (at constant quantizer):


cartoon mode


normal mode

Please download the fullsize images and switch back and forth between them with an image-viewer. What are your results?

Yes. They are exactly the same. Only that one is from a file that's 4.11% smaller than the other one; at the same quantizer i.e. level of compression.

Now, if we do a two-pass to identical target filesize with and without cartoon mode, the result is something like this:

Average quantizers for cartoon mode encoding:
I: 3,04
P: 3,18
B: 5,18
Average quantizers for normal mode encoding:
I: 3,12
P: 3,33
B: 5,54

Translated into something visible this means quite some frames in the cartoon mode encoding are less compressed. Like this frame:


cartoon mode


normal mode

There really are some popular myths about anime and XviD that let people encode to a lesser quality than possible. One of the reasons why I like to recommend x264 is that is still is relatively unharmed by people making false claims as to settings without offering any proof. Though I recently read something horrible about b-frames not being good for anime in an x264-thread, too. Probably in good tradition... I think it is by root a psychological problem; [edit]some[/edit]anime fans just reject to see their beloved medium as nothing but asian cartoons. But for the codec it doesn't make a difference whether you encode the Flintstones or Pokemon; both are flat surfaces and well fit for cartoon mode. On the other hand it doesn't matter whether the source is an anime with high-fps-fantastically-detailed-CG or an old Disney cartoon produced with a higher framerate than anime (more actually differing frames handdrawn per second) and drawn meticiously detailed; both are probably not good to encode with cartoon mode.

Edit: a typo; the comparison of average quantizer read 'cartoon mode' in both instances, where it should of course have been 'cartoon mode' and 'normal mode'.
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Last edited by Teegedeck; 18th March 2005 at 11:57.
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Old 8th March 2005, 15:56   #12  |  Link
ChronoCross
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After trying out Nero and x264 I don't think AVC is ready for use yet. Not only is it slow as a fat man at a track meet(1fps encoding compared to 10fps encoding with xvid) but I just don't feel the compression/quality is as good as it needs to be in order for it to appear as a superior codec.

As for filtering Mipsmooth is a waste of time as well as convolution. for anime your gonna have to try more powerful things like deen or hqdn3d as well as sharpening (awarpsharp and Xsharpen work well). but like they said everything is relative. The most important part with anime however is IVTC, cause you can really screw this up if you don't know what your doing.
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Old 8th March 2005, 16:31   #13  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by Teegedeck


cartoon mode


normal mode
the second (normal mode) has a quality slightly lower cause of the higher quantizer but the quality is still very acceptable and looks a bit more sharp than the first screenshot (cartoon mode)

i will made my own test, i was just afraid about this "bug" :

Quote:
Originally posted by haibane
Here is some screen shots of the artifacts I'm talking about.......
the good ones are w/o cartoon mode........

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~liusu/bug/good.jpg
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~liusu/bug/cartoon.jpg
on the cartoon.jpg you can clearly see a black dot on top of the line in the middle, which is not suppose to be there. It might be a block carried up from the line below.



http://www-personal.umich.edu/~liusu/bug/good.png
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~liusu/bug/cartoon.png
here is more pictures, on the cartoon.png, there are some black dots above the black lines, which is no present in the encode w/o cartoon mode checked.

I've notice this for a few months, I don't know is this a bug or it is a trade off for samller filesize.
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Old 8th March 2005, 16:33   #14  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChronoCross
After trying out Nero and x264 I don't think AVC is ready for use yet. Not only is it slow as a fat man at a track meet(1fps encoding compared to 10fps encoding with xvid) but I just don't feel the compression/quality is as good as it needs to be in order for it to appear as a superior codec.
If you have doubts about the h264 efficiency look at what can it do: http://www.aziendeassociate.com/screenshots.rar
It's a full DVD res anamorphic encode (720x424) @ 722kbps and not even at max quality!!!

Last edited by Sharktooth; 8th March 2005 at 16:48.
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Old 8th March 2005, 16:38   #15  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChronoCross


As for filtering Mipsmooth is a waste of time as well as convolution. for anime your gonna have to try more powerful things like deen or hqdn3d as well as sharpening (awarpsharp and Xsharpen work well). [/B]
by using the filter mipsmooth with the preset "animeLQ" I increase the compressibility of approximately 10 %, i don't think this is a waste of time...
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Old 8th March 2005, 16:51   #16  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChronoCross
After trying out Nero and x264 I don't think AVC is ready for use yet. Not only is it slow as a fat man at a track meet(1fps encoding compared to 10fps encoding with xvid) but I just don't feel the compression/quality is as good as it needs to be in order for it to appear as a superior codec.
Not true:


From a constant quantizer encode, the same size as the constant-quantizer XviD encodings.


From the same encode, which is 20% smaller than the two-pass XviD encodings from which the screenshots of this frame in my previos post stem.

(Edit: I'm gonna update the second screenshot with one from a two-pass encoding with x264 lateron, for an exact comparison. And insert the correct frame for the first one, too... )

Edit: corrected swapped image descriptions.
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Last edited by Teegedeck; 8th March 2005 at 19:17.
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Old 8th March 2005, 16:54   #17  |  Link
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Quote:
I think it is by root a psychological problem; anime fans just reject to see their beloved medium as nothing but asian cartoons
sorry but i cant let that pass. please do not try and lump all anime fans in to some negative preconcieved opinion you have. yes anime is cartoons made for Japan(to be specific), with higher quality than your average U.S.A. cartoon in many cases however. there are of course plenty of cheap tv shows made though, pokemon being a good example. thank you doctor freud for your opinion on our psychological problems though.

Quote:
for the codec it doesn't make a difference whether you encode the Flintstones or Pokemon; both are flat surfaces and well fit for cartoon mode.
i agree completely. this could have been said without the insults could it not ?
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Old 8th March 2005, 16:58   #18  |  Link
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oh and if you are going to reccomend H264 for people then Nero would be the thing since its relativly stable while x264 is constantly being updated and ffdshow(free viewing solution) is constantly behind. with Nero you know what the encoder produces the decoder will play. so x264, at the moment, is more for those wanting to try out or test H264 rather than people wanting to do permanant backups IMHO.
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Old 8th March 2005, 17:02   #19  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by dragongodz
sorry but i cant let that pass. please do not try and lump all anime fans in to some negative preconcieved opinion you have. yes anime is cartoons made for Japan(to be specific), with higher quality than your average U.S.A. cartoon in many cases however. there are of course plenty of cheap tv shows made though, pokemon being a good example. thank you doctor freud for your opinion on our psychological problems though.
:lol: Excuse me please, present company exceptet.

No offense meant.

Probably my reaction is from country-studies; so often I hear people claiming that some phenomenon is typical of only the country they study, while it can actually be found in many places.

Edit: Please accept the correction of my initial generalizing statement as a way of apologizing.
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Last edited by Teegedeck; 8th March 2005 at 18:06.
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Old 8th March 2005, 18:11   #20  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spyn
the second (normal mode) has a quality slightly lower cause of the higher quantizer but the quality is still very acceptable and looks a bit more sharp than the first screenshot (cartoon mode)
Not for my eyes. It simply has more ringing.

That 'bug' is the stray pixel that I wrote about (magnifying lense and all...). The danger of a stray pixel seems small (to me and IMHO) in comparison to the very real fact of having more highly quantized frames. Better deal.
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