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View Poll Results: Do we keep rule 12 ?
Yes we want to keep rule 12 50 68.49%
No we don't want to keep rule 12 23 31.51%
Voters: 73. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12th December 2003, 18:27   #1  |  Link
kurgbe
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Let's vote on Rule 12

Since rule 12 is not popular, I propose to all members of this forum to vote to see whether we keep rule 12 or not.

My personal view is that we should get rid of it asap for the following reasons:

>Do not ask "what's best" because this question cannot be answered objectively.

1) It is not because a question cannot be answered objectively that we should not discuss it and give our personal opinion. If I trust someone on this forum for the quality of his contribution, and this person says I have discovered a new tool which is far better than what I have seen so far, I will test it myself.

2) I think that products can be compared, and are compared everyday in many consumer magazines based on a number of criteria. Some criteria are more subjective but not all. It is fair to say that there are 4 main criterias for the products we are considering in this forum:
1) image quality
2) ease of use
3) cost
4) cope with any type of DVD.

I am not an advanced expert in one click DVD backup solutions but I can tell you that IfoEdit comes far behind DVD2one as far as criteria 2) is concerned. And I can justify this easily. This information is surely valuable to new comers.


> Each and everyone has their own view about what's best in a certain area.

True. Nevertheless it is very interesting to read a well motivated view.

> The best is what works best for you!

Well.... obvious but does it help anyone?
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Old 12th December 2003, 18:46   #2  |  Link
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it shouldn't even be a question whether this rule should be kept or not. if anybody with half a brain just did a search on the subject before they posted WHAT IS BETTER! WHAT IS BETTER?!!? then they could come up with their own conclusion based on statements/tests that people have done before. i personally don't like to log-in to see 5 of the 10 new threads to be about the same thing-people asking what is better. with a little effort this question can be answered without having to post a thread about it

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Old 12th December 2003, 18:50   #3  |  Link
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Re: Let's vote on Rule 12

Quote:
Originally posted by kurgbe
It is fair to say that there are 4 main criterias for the products we are considering in this forum:
1) image quality
2) ease of use
3) cost
4) cope with any type of DVD.

If that is really the case, then why not ask which product has the best image quality/ease/cost/copeability rather then 'which is best'. Or as daddy_fizz pointed out do a search and you can get the answers you seek to all four of those criteria ten times as fast.
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Old 12th December 2003, 18:55   #4  |  Link
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I commend you for starting this thread. It's a gutsy move, and I hope everyone will respond rationally.

I do however disagree, and ironically some of my reasons for wanting to keep rule 12 are exactly the same as your reasons for wanting to get rid of it. Specifically point 2 above - it's because tools can excel in different areas that no one tool can be considered best.

Besides that, rule 12 doesn't forbid discussion of the pros and cons of tools, it only forbids the inanely simplistic "what's best" posts.
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Old 12th December 2003, 19:04   #5  |  Link
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Maybe the suggestion appended to the rule should be that if you are going to do a "What is best" thread, then it must be a Poll.

I do not find it a problem to see what everyone else thinks is the best tool, but discussions about what defines "the best" is just too subjective. But I think Polls are okay.
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Old 12th December 2003, 20:34   #6  |  Link
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I personally like the idea of asking this question. This gives you the ability to get multiple opinions on different applications. True indeed, like the rule states "what may be best for you may not be the best for someone else", however, it will open ideas from other users and members of this forum. I have learned so much since Ive been a member of this forum and I would have to say that the abilities I have, and the methods I use, are a conglomerate of many opinions submitted on this forum as well as trial and error. I respect this rule as a member, however I do feel that in some cases it could limit or block the transfer of ideas among members.
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Old 12th December 2003, 21:08   #7  |  Link
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Hi all.

I don't think it really matters one way or another.


Everybody knows DVD Shrink is best!!
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Old 12th December 2003, 21:54   #8  |  Link
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just a few quotes as to why rule 12 should stay

'one man's meat is another man's poison'
'one man's garbage is another man's art'
'to each his own '

the 'best' answer to a 'what's best?' question depends on what subject 'best' is about

one of the most common, which is 'what is the best quality?' always brings disagreement no matter what. The simple answer to this common question is try it for yourself on your own setup, using your own eyes and your own perception of quality. There is always some else who will disagree with the next person's suggestion due to varying factors. This 'what's the best quality?' is the question that probably falls into Rule 12 no matter what and people shouldn't really answer it with a suggestion as everyone will have their own opinion. I agree a poll is OK but flaming about quality isn't for me anymore as I have grown up

I simply cannot understand how people cannot make up their own mind in this field . Most if not all have trial versions or are free so they can all be tested. There is no way I would let some complete stranger tell me which program is the best quality. I would just test them all myself

on a similar note, asking that question on a larger scale is like asking 'which is the best song in the world?' and then it becomes your favourite song you will always listen to. You just wouldn't do that if you could listen to all the songs yourself and make up your own mind and even so everyone has their own favourite song

So what's the major difference in asking about quality?

things like 'which is the fastest?' may still bring up some differences of opinion due to the computer's resorces. 'Which is easiest?' is another fue to the user's knowledge or 'Which produces most reliable results?' may depend on both users knowledge and Operating System setup

'which has best features?' is also debatable due to user requirements as everyone doesn't require the same content backup. Some like movie-only yet some like menu's and selective extras or some even split the DVD. Different tools therefore are better suited for those needs so again read the quotes before flaming someone else's choice

even questions like 'which is the best price?' can also be debatable due to different currencies and rebates

that's why rule 12 should stay and more forums should take note

p.s. stepping down from soapbox
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Old 12th December 2003, 22:20   #9  |  Link
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Old 12th December 2003, 23:28   #10  |  Link
snidely
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I can understand and empathize with both sides of this issue.

1. To see a newbie come in to the forum and post the same "What's best" post as has been posted a thousand times before is very frustrating, as usuallly these types of questions are born of sheer laziness to do even a quick search on the subject. These types of posts should be squashed quickly, if for no other reason than to force the user to learn how to use the search engine.

2. on the other side of the coin, THINGS CHANGE! That is, someone could look up info on InstantCopy (for example) and at one time that program was significantly better than the competition. If a user made a decision now based on this very old information, he could mistakenly come to the conclusion that IC is a good choice for transcoding, while the rest of us understand that its shortcomings make it one of the poorest of the current choices (I like to live dangerously, don't I? ).

Ok, kidding aside, the point is still that as various programs evolve, while others stand still, what was "best" a year or 6 months ago will not necessarily be the "best" any more, and if we do not allow discussions of this nature, then people will be stuck with old methods and outdated information.

As far as "opinions" are concerned, yes it is true that everyone should evaluate things for himself, but if everyone felt confident in their own abilities, then movie and equipment reviews would cease to exist. People want to know the opinions of others so that they at least can establish a base line for their own opinions, investigate the pros and cons of the product, and decide for themselves what is important to them and what is not.

In my forum (AV Science), we allow discussion of "what's best" and it is the job of the moderators to oversee the threads to make sure that things remain civil. If members get into name calling and flaming, then we close the thread, but if the exchanges contain valid debate and opinion, then we allow people to talk about the subject to their heart's content.

In the end it is not our decision to vote this rule in or out, though, and we must abide by the policy of the administrators. So whatever they decide, I will remain a member here and follow their rules. My opinion is that people should be allowed to speak their minds, as long as they don't interfere with the rights of others (bad language, name calling, etc.).

Cheers....Snidely

BTW, here is one of those "what's best" discussions that pops up over and over again at AVS - What is the best software DVD player? If we didn't alow discussion of such a topic, then real gems of programs like TheaterTek and Zoom Player would have fallen by the wayside in favor of more mainstream products like PowerDVD, WinDVD, ATI Player, NDVD, etc.

Last edited by snidely; 12th December 2003 at 23:48.
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Old 13th December 2003, 00:04   #11  |  Link
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@snidely

Quote:
Originally posted by snidely
Ok, kidding aside, the point is still that as various programs evolve, while others stand still, what was "best" a year or 6 months ago will not necessarily be the "best" any more, and if we do not allow discussions of this nature, then people will be stuck with old methods and outdated information.
You make it sound as if Doom9 is not the best place to get up-to-date, around-the-clock information. You should know that there are alot of concerned people here who would quickly post their pros and cons after using fresh-off-the-press programs. Sometimes, almost within 24 hours of release. Case and point, nero Recode just came out and you'll start seeing alot of posts on it before the end of the day. How fresh is that? That's what makes this forum great. Lots of information day to day. Now, these posts exist to help the new users on what they should look into and try but they really need to make an effort to search and read the threads. The codes are there, they just haven't been around here long enough to see the forum's "matrix".
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Old 13th December 2003, 00:38   #12  |  Link
snidely
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Quote:
You make it sound as if Doom9 is not the best place to get up-to-date, around-the-clock information.
No, that is not what I meant at all. Of course Doom9 is the best place for this kind of information - Why else would I be here?

What I meant to say is that if a user performs a search concerning InstantCopy, for example, he will find tons of posts in the archives that would probably lead a newbie to believe that this is the best thing to come along since sliced bread. That information is OLD NEWS! And add that to the policy of not asking which program is currently "best", and then you have misinformation and/or old information being passed from one person to the other.

In my IC example, I would invite healthy, informed debate on the merits of this program vs. other transcoders, but as I interpret rule 12, this would not be allowed. I mean, I could provide rational, informed reasons why IC might not be the best choice anymore, but I would feel restricted and fear the dreaded "strike" against my account for breaking forum policy if I were to present my arguments.

Maybe I am misunderstanding the intent of rule 12?

1. Could I post a thread entitled "IC8 vs. DVDShrink 3 beta 5, which one is better?" (Note I didn't use the word best)

2. How about "Still picture comparisons - Which transcoder is best?" (I have now specified the type of comparison, so does it fall under the rule 12 umbrella?)

3. And "Comparing the various transcoders using ultra high resolution display devices - 3 men's opinions" (Is the value of such a post useless because the majority of people don't own such high end gear?)

I fully understand that the generalized "which is best" comparison is relatively meaningless, but if people are not allowed to post their opinions in this regard, then uninformed conclusions can be reached.

Would you buy a new car without reading a single review of it ANYWHERE or without at least someone saying "hey, look how nice that car rides." - be honest

If no one had reviewed Gigli and told you how bad it was, would you have ever made the decision to rent it just to find out how bad it really is?

The point is that discussion of what is best and what is worst is perfectly healthy, as it gives a basis for newbies and the uninformed to at least get a start, while the more experienced user can gain insights into new programs without having to actually go out and purchase them. If you read enough to pique your interest, then you will go out, buy the product, and make the final determination for yourself. In both cases, everyone benefits. I mean, after all, what is the purpose of a forum if it isn't to discuss a common area of interest TO DEATH?

Last edited by snidely; 13th December 2003 at 00:46.
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Old 13th December 2003, 02:46   #13  |  Link
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I would tend to agree with you, snidely, but would like to add something.

The replies to "what is best..." type posts are as important as the initial query.
A thread containing mainly "I don't like this because it's crap", "this program sucks", "I compared this and that, and that is better" doesn't contribute much if anything.
However, a post containing genuine comparisons or tests, when the equipment used is described, can be both useful and interesting.
I guess it should be up to the members of these forums and the moderators, to either "feed" a thread, or ignore it and let it slowly disappear.
"Merging threads" or pointing a newbie to an existing thread can also work wonders.
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Old 13th December 2003, 03:24   #14  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by snidely
Would you buy a new car without reading a single review of it ANYWHERE or without at least someone saying "hey, look how nice that car rides."
Would you go to a car oriented forum and ask "what's the best car?"? You just stated the reasoning for the rule, there are plenty of product reviews here, without pointless debates over what is best, and what qualities are more important than others. That which cannot be quantified is just a matter of personal taste.
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Old 13th December 2003, 04:33   #15  |  Link
snidely
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Quote:
Would you go to a car oriented forum and ask "what's the best car?"?
Sure I would!

But I would do so intelligently (hopefully )! I would hope that such a question would evoke a ton of responses from gearheads everywhere, each telling me the virtues of their particular favorite auto and why they feel that way. Of course, "automobiles" are not the same as "one click backup solutions" in that there are many different models designed for totally different purposes, while the "one click" solutions are already narrowed down to more specific interests. Now if I joined a "most comfortable car in the ~$30,000 range " subforum, then my question should be really well recieved, as I have narrowed down the type of auto I am seeking and not just asking the dumb question, "what's the best car?"

As I said earlier, I am in full support of weeding out inane posts asking such broad questions as to make the answers impossible, but on the same token I am against filtering out people's opinions on which product is better than another, as long as they are willing to provide reasons for their opinions, and not simply say things like "I don't like this because it's crap", "this program sucks", "I compared this and that, and that is better" (like ddlooping so appropriately mentioned).

What I would personally request of the moderators and/or admins would be a clarification of rule 12 so that everyone knows the bounds of what is considered ok to ask and what isn't. Could one of the mods please answer my sample post questions that I asked a couple of posts ago?

Once again I will reiterate, THIS FORUM IS NOT A DEMOCRACY, so I fully understand that none of us are entitled to demand or vote on anything regarding forum policy. I merely request that consideration be given to my above posts and that maybe someone might rewrite rule 12 to clarify its limits and bounds.
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Old 13th December 2003, 05:06   #16  |  Link
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We shouldn't just limit ourselves to just this forum as it is very broad on talking about all "One click DVD backup solutions". There are official forums out there for these programs too.

To cut down on "what best", I think someone should come up with a "One click DVD backup solutions" matrix like the Authoring program feature matrix done here in Doom9 and make it a sticky.
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Old 13th December 2003, 09:30   #17  |  Link
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@snidely

the answers I would have for your questions

#1, this could be asked as long as it wasn't which is better quality as that will always bring up flaming. It can still be allowed but it would have to be constantly monitored and threads asking which is the better of 2 regarding quality never really show anything posistive or at least you cannot see it between the IC/DVDSrink quality sucks posts . So again it depends on the subject of what the 'best' is based. Even things like a simple which has the best features post with no real info to go on would be like asking which is best between a Ford and Nissan!

#2 again, the answer to this is all down to the varying factor which is the user's perspective of what is quality. Things may also change during normal playback as personally still comparions don't give a 'true' impression of how the quality has been affected. As someone mentioned before about detailed reports about comparisions are better replies than the usual this or that sucks as these posts are tiresome

#3 again, those 3 men may have different opinions but most definitely different to the 1000's out there if they also viewed the same image on the same setup. People like different picture settings on their setups or else there wouldn't be even the simple settings like colour/brightness/contrast/sharpness on setups, never mind the more advanced settings

if true comparisions are to be made, then it would be under test conitions with everything being the same but due to different settings available within each tool and varying output sizes then it's very hard to make a good comparisobn. IC's sizing issue is an example of this as the quality suffers due to it's undersizing. Newbies who ask the normal wich is best thread and thats it can then be pointed to that thread but a sticky with all such threads would be good reference to stop these types of posts being made in the 1st place which is what rule #12 is all about, asking what's best and dupplying no information

even the better which is 'best' quality threads get differences of opinion and I must admit I was drawn into debating at the begininng but then realised no matter what I say, it will not change somebody else's opinion. This was after I looked at my 50 frame side by side analysis of Star Wars AOTC on a different setup which gave completely different results

my old Star Wars frame by frame analysis for 50-70 frames thread HERE offered plenty of stills for comparision still showed how people can have differences of opinion even when obvious differences are apparent. This didn't take 2 minutes to come to a conclusion for myslef but since then I have involved my self very little in quality comparisions and changed my sig to show my favourite quote on this due to people's differences in opinion no matter what. I simple just quoted my sig everytime someone asked the tiresome which is best thread

...In the end it's a matter of individual perception and the level of quality delivered by the playback system...
......before you judge look at the overall cost, the amount of user input required and requirements and the quality of results.....


here are some old which is 'best' quality threads that show differences. There's more but I will leave the search engine for the people who should really use it
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55844
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49044

it would be better to see comparision like this review (though old). People could then go read it and this would help them make up their mind as the pics would be their for them to view on their own setup even though still comparisions are not the best way to judge playback quality
http://www.cdfreaks.com/article/114/9

to conclude, the simple fact is that if you copied a DVD5 using all the current tools which should be exact bit for bit copies (I know they may not be but the differences would probably be undetectable to the human eye, even Superman), I can GUARANTEE that some people will still argue over which tool has the best quality

It's been shown on completely different tests before (A non official Pespi challenge springs to mind where they used Pepsi from the same bottle in both samples!) that even given the choice between exactly the same things, human beings will still sometimes think one is better than the other for some strange reason . So bearing this human flaw in mind how can you 'truely' compare something that has so many varying factors?

p.s. steps down again

Last edited by MackemX; 13th December 2003 at 09:34.
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Old 13th December 2003, 14:05   #18  |  Link
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Which one is the best?

The one that is fastest is obviously the best.

The one that gives the best average quality for the average movie on the average TV with the average DVD player is obviously the best.

The one that is the cheapest is obviously the best.

The one that is a perfect balance between speed and quality is obviously the best.

The one that balances between speed/quality/price is obviously the best.

The one that provides good enough quality for my particular hardware is obviously the best.

The one that provides the best quality on the latest, greatest wide-screen HD TV with the latest and greatest progressive scan DVD player is obviously the best, as long as it doesn't take too long or cost too much.

Can't you see that the answer is obvious?
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Old 13th December 2003, 14:34   #19  |  Link
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it's obvious to me but I'll keep it to myself but I will say that my 'best' is a hybrid of a few tools as I don't just use one specific one clicker as I require a little from a few apps

lol, so what's the best field to judge it on and the worst?

is the order of the questions in order of importance so the best is at the top?
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Old 13th December 2003, 14:38   #20  |  Link
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"But I would do so intelligently" snidely thats the problem though, just asking "whats the best" is not an intelligant question. if you ask "which can do this or has this feature" then you are being specific in what you want to know. the best is not the same for everyone since person A will want more features while person B will want better quality while person C will want better speed etc etc ad-infanitum.

go to a car forum and ask whats the best and the first thing you will get is "for what ?". meaning for price ? for features ? for cost ? etc etc etc. rule 12 is trying to get you to be more exact about what you want to know. thats a good thing.
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