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21st August 2005, 21:06 | #1 | Link |
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VfW-mode AVC/h.264 tracks vs. Native Matroska-mode AVC/h.264 tracks
Could someone please explain the difference between vfw mode and native mode, and why native mode is preferred?
I tried google and wikipedia, but couldn't find anything (mostly because I dont know what keywords to search for). js |
21st August 2005, 21:34 | #2 | Link |
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native mode is the way to store avc in mkv as defined in the mkv specs, anything else you need to know?
vfw mode is a special way for storing streams in mkv as some sort of "private stream" when going via the vfw codec interface (as used in virtualdub) meaning its nowhere defined how the stream is stored in the mkv here a list about the downsides of vfw mode: 1) you will loose interoperability. if you dont use the native way its not ensured that your files will work with mkv tools meant to support avc following the specs. placing avc in mkv the vfw way is like placing avc in some private not defined way in .mp4: its not ensured that the files will work anywhere 2) you will get decoding delays with any avc encoding mode not being support in vfw (that is b-frames, b-references or arbitrary frameorders without b-frames). you will get a delay of 1 in case of b-frames plus 1 additional frame if b-pyramid is used (that is a delay of 80ms for a 25fps stream) 3) you will get an "encoding delay", so called delay frames into the stream. in the case of asp video they will break the compliancy of the video stream to the mpeg-4 standard, dunno if this is true for avc too. that is an additional delay of 2 frames in the case of useage of 2 b-frames: 80ms (never tested how b-pyramid influences this, but surely not positively). i think the delay will be higher if you use more b-frames (eg 3 delay frames with 3 b-frames aso) 4) the framenumber of the stream will not be correct anymore. you will loose two frames in the case of using 2 b-frames (3 frames with 3 b-frames aso) 5) people will laugh at you if you use it
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Between the weak and the strong one it is the freedom which oppresses and the law that liberates (Jean Jacques Rousseau) I know, that I know nothing (Socrates) MPEG-4 ASP FAQ | AVC/H.264 FAQ | AAC FAQ | MP4 FAQ | MP4Menu stores DVD Menus in MP4 (guide) Ogg Theora | Ogg Vorbis use WM9 today and get Micro$oft controlling the A/V market tomorrow for free Last edited by bond; 21st August 2005 at 21:59. |
21st August 2005, 21:36 | #3 | Link |
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@bond
It's coz of #4 I implemented it in RealAnime
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21st August 2005, 21:38 | #4 | Link | |
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moved to container forum
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21st August 2005, 21:44 | #5 | Link | |
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Any way, for more detailed information of the b-frame delay thing you can read this, but it was for ASP, I don't know what changed. And bond: |
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21st August 2005, 21:47 | #6 | Link | |
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once someone invents some private storage mode (eg packed bitstream-like) for avc-in-mkv and no vfw decoder (speak: ffdshow) supports it you can go to hell with your vfw mode the native mode is the only way to ensure interoperability btw the vfw mode was especially created for supporting old tools, like vdm
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Between the weak and the strong one it is the freedom which oppresses and the law that liberates (Jean Jacques Rousseau) I know, that I know nothing (Socrates) MPEG-4 ASP FAQ | AVC/H.264 FAQ | AAC FAQ | MP4 FAQ | MP4Menu stores DVD Menus in MP4 (guide) Ogg Theora | Ogg Vorbis use WM9 today and get Micro$oft controlling the A/V market tomorrow for free Last edited by bond; 21st August 2005 at 21:57. |
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21st August 2005, 22:08 | #8 | Link | |
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Between the weak and the strong one it is the freedom which oppresses and the law that liberates (Jean Jacques Rousseau) I know, that I know nothing (Socrates) MPEG-4 ASP FAQ | AVC/H.264 FAQ | AAC FAQ | MP4 FAQ | MP4Menu stores DVD Menus in MP4 (guide) Ogg Theora | Ogg Vorbis use WM9 today and get Micro$oft controlling the A/V market tomorrow for free |
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21st August 2005, 22:11 | #9 | Link |
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im not sure how drop frames are handled by avi parsers in the beginning of a file, i thought AVIMux GUI remvoed them, and that MS avi splitter just skipped them too. so i think the only delay you will see is from decoding.
However, it is of course recommended to use the native mode for h264 in MKV. Unless you know what you are doing, you should use things the way they are intended to be used. |
21st August 2005, 22:23 | #10 | Link | |
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21st August 2005, 22:28 | #12 | Link | |
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maybe its possible for asp in mkvmerge, dunno in any case you can demux the avc to raw .264, import to .mp4 and than remux to .mkv but of course the best is to encode directly to .mp4 or .mkv as supported in x264 already...
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21st August 2005, 22:32 | #13 | Link | ||
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Last edited by stephanV; 21st August 2005 at 22:34. |
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21st August 2005, 23:36 | #14 | Link | |
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22nd August 2005, 09:59 | #16 | Link | |
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4th April 2006, 02:46 | #17 | Link | |
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29th April 2006, 22:36 | #19 | Link |
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Today, I ve made my first DVD Rip with x264 under VirtualDubMod as I used to for Xvid. I have a soundtrack in OggVorbis. But now, I cannot mux the tracks into a mkv.
If I understood correctly, VDM should not be used for x264. Is there still a possibility to mux my x264 avi into a mkv or must I reencode the movie? Last edited by Eric B; 29th April 2006 at 23:32. |
29th April 2006, 22:57 | #20 | Link | |
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you end up with a raw .264 stream that should be pretty much identical to a .264 produced by any of the non-vfw-x62-frontends. mkvmerge will quite happily mux such a video stream along with your audio into a perfectly standard-compliant mkv. hope i didn't confuse you too much, thoralf. |
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