VMR9 output too bright

LoKi128 · 28th June 2005, 04:23

--- EDIT ---
Has nothing to do with x264. Look below.
--- EDIT---

Well, I got down to experimenting with x264 and I noticed that a movie I encoded seemed "washed out". It either has the brightness turned up, or the saturation turned down or both.

So I opened the AVS with MPC and took saved the frame. Then I opened the MP4 with the encode and also saved that frame. As you can see, there is an obvious difference between them.

Using x264-270, MPC v6.4.8.4, ffdshow-20050619 and Haali-20050626. Both shots taken with MPC. Commandline used to encode:

x264.exe --bframe 3 --b-pyramid --weightb --ref 3 --bitrate %2 --pass 1 --stats "%1_x264.log" --analyse all --8x8dct --subme 6 --progress --output %1_Pass1.mp4 %1.avs

AVS Used:
mpeg2source("GardenState.d2v",idct=5,info=3)
Telecide(order=1,guide=1)
Decimate()
#ColorMatrix(hints=true)
undot()

Tried with both ColorMatrix on and off, but it didnt change the output. Maybe I'm setting it up wrong and using hints mode is not enough? I remember this same question being asked in the XviD forum every once in a while, but it never happened to me with XviD.

I'm thinking that I'm missing something very obvious about this whole thing, since no one has mentioned this before. Be gentle!

PS. I'm loving x264... great quality at full DVD res at 700kbps

bond · 28th June 2005, 10:28

your screenshots are not showing the same frames?

azsd · 28th June 2005, 10:59

not same but similar frame....

yokem55 · 28th June 2005, 18:42

Do you have any brightness settings set with ffdshow?

Sergejack · 28th June 2005, 20:49

similar frame ?

Have you heard about those cloud things ?

You need the same frames to show the difference you're talking about.

lexor · 28th June 2005, 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sergejack

You need the same frames to show the difference you're talking about.

what are you talking about? just open images in 2 windows and switch between them, the first is properly saturated and the second has white mist overlay, I can't belive you guys harras a guy about frame difference when the colour-saturation difference is so huge. And since he applies the same filtering to the entire movie and not to segments of it, filtering should either make it all white or not. Thus the problem is with his x264 encoder, either you guys can see something wrong with his command line (which I don't atm) or something is broken in the encoder.

LoKi128 · 29th June 2005, 00:04

Sorry about the two different frames! Going to the same "frame" in MPC didnt give me the same frame at all, and after a bit of moving the slider around and playing the movie, I just said "eff it" and used diff shots. Anyway, I think the diff is pretty obvious anyway.

Well, I'm back home from work, so I'll try a few different versions of x264 and see what I get. Oh and I don't have any brightness settings in ffdshow. I usually only have postprocessing and sharpen, but for this test I disabled them all.

Pookie · 29th June 2005, 20:02

Here's my comparison of source Mpeg2 vs target x264. The x264 is a bit brighter - not too bad, however.

LoKi128 · 30th June 2005, 03:56

Well, I've been kinda busy. Anyway, played the video back with mplayer and it shows the correct brightness. So the problem has to be in either mpc or ffdshow. So i play it with WMP6.4 and it also has the correct brightness. So it is definetly MPC. I play around with the different output options:

System Default: OK
Old Renderer: OK
Overlay Mixer: OK
VMR9 (windowed): Too bright, jerky
VMR9 (renderless): Too bright

The "render video in 2D/3D" settings don't change the brightness of the output in VMR9 mode. This is all with MPC 6.4.8.4. At this point I don't know if it is a problem with MPC or with the windows VMR9 drivers or whatever.

Anyone know what could be affecting the VMR9 "side" of the output, or where to tweak that?

LoKi128 · 30th June 2005, 04:18

Did some searching, found this post that mentions changing the output colorspace of ffdshow to YUY2 to output the correct range of values. That didnt help. So I disabled them all and just left RGB32 (with the high quality option ticked) and that fixed the problem.

This thread is obviously not related to x264 at all. Maybe it should be moved into Software Players or some other appropriate place.

hrlslcbr · 30th June 2005, 05:30

Hello. I also get brighter colours using VMR9, but I believe that it is not a problem of the VMR9 filter, but a problem of the overlay mixer producing colours that are too dark. The blacks of the second image you posted seemed ok to me; not too bright, but the first one is too dark.
If your source is DVD, then the colour range is 16-235 and not 0-255 so black will not (or should not) look like black on a PC monitor, but should appear slightly grey; and that's what you're getting with the VMR9 filter.
The black bars on the second image are 16,16,16 (RGB), and the ones in the first one are 0,0,0.

Beave · 14th July 2005, 03:41

I had the same problem and discovered in some other forum that this is a typical VMR9 feature. It has the black point at around 15 % higher than it should like described in the post above. There is some advantage to this I can't remember. The same for the whites as well. You are supposed to adjust your screen so that the blacks get black again (16 should look like 0 after lowering the brightness of the display). There are even some parts of calibration DVDs that just cover this part.
My suggestion is to use overlay on normal computer monitors and VMR9 on dedicated Movie-Monitors like your HTPC under the TV.
Somewhere in the avsforum there are huge threads and how-tos about this.

donjuan03 · 2nd January 2006, 09:50

My IPod 5g (video) seems to use the VRM9 type blackness and it is making my encoded videos look over bright is there any recommendations for encoding with limitations such as I have? Any help appreciated

3ngel · 2nd January 2006, 14:16

This brightness problem has been discussed in another thread "Decoder Filter for x264 decoding", and has been discovered that there is a real issue in the FFDShow decoding regarding brightness and color space.
With the default FFDShow settings the color space is junked. Allowing only RGB24 and RGB32 on FFDShow, the color space problem is gone, but the decoding remains a bit more bright than the original source (or compared to other decoders). I think atm it's a kind of a bug.

donjuan03 · 3rd January 2006, 20:10

So during the encoding this problem occurs or during playback because it seems to happen during playback on my computer (unless i switch to overlay) and it happens with playback on the IPOD as well. Maybe I could encode it darker expecting the brightness gain, but I would like to find the source rather than avoid it.

Manao · 3rd January 2006, 20:43

Quote:

and has been discovered that there is a real issue in the FFDShow decoding regarding brightness and color space

It's not quite what have been said. The issue lies within the renderer, not the decoder.

Quote:

I think atm it's a kind of a bug

*sigh*. It isn't a bug. Do understand that the decoding process is correct. The pixel values are correct - in the boundary of dct mismatches for asp. If they are shown wrong, the issue isn't in the decoder anymore, but in the renderer. Forcing RGB output in FFDShow is a last chance workaround, but do be sure that there're other ways to achieve the same results without having to go back this early to the RGB colorspace ( which isn't a good idea, since the video card does the job much faster ).

3ngel · 3rd January 2006, 21:06

Quote:

It's not quite what have been said. The issue lies within the renderer, not the decoder.

If the problem would be within the renderer, the brightness matter would verify with *every* decoders decoding the content (comparing in the same VMR9 environment obvioulsy).
But indeed it happens only with FFDShow.
With VMR9 Renderless, ND (and 3vix too i've tested) decoding is faithful to the original source without the brightness altered value.

donjuan03 · 3rd January 2006, 22:01

So what about the ipod where I have no control over the rendering settings, how should I accomodate to that?

foxyshadis · 4th January 2006, 02:15

donjuan, add ColorYUV(levels="TV->PC") to the end of the avisynth script, if it is this problem. If it's just a bright backlight maybe you should just lower the movie brightness.

Since you generally need to make specialized encodings for ipod anyway, compared to PC archival versions, you might as well modify the encoding procedure. That is unless anyone knows a better way.

cjei · 4th January 2006, 22:11

i have a similar issue with overlay.
Overlay seems to assume Rec.709 colorimetry for my 1280x720 encodes.

Are we supposed to use Rec.709 for hd encodes ??

28th June 2005, 04:23	#1 \| Link
LoKi128 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 37	VMR9 output too bright --- EDIT --- Has nothing to do with x264. Look below. --- EDIT--- Well, I got down to experimenting with x264 and I noticed that a movie I encoded seemed "washed out". It either has the brightness turned up, or the saturation turned down or both. So I opened the AVS with MPC and took saved the frame. Then I opened the MP4 with the encode and also saved that frame. As you can see, there is an obvious difference between them. Using x264-270, MPC v6.4.8.4, ffdshow-20050619 and Haali-20050626. Both shots taken with MPC. Commandline used to encode: x264.exe --bframe 3 --b-pyramid --weightb --ref 3 --bitrate %2 --pass 1 --stats "%1_x264.log" --analyse all --8x8dct --subme 6 --progress --output %1_Pass1.mp4 %1.avs AVS Used: mpeg2source("GardenState.d2v",idct=5,info=3) Telecide(order=1,guide=1) Decimate() #ColorMatrix(hints=true) undot() Tried with both ColorMatrix on and off, but it didnt change the output. Maybe I'm setting it up wrong and using hints mode is not enough? I remember this same question being asked in the XviD forum every once in a while, but it never happened to me with XviD. I'm thinking that I'm missing something very obvious about this whole thing, since no one has mentioned this before. Be gentle! PS. I'm loving x264... great quality at full DVD res at 700kbps Attached Images Last edited by LoKi128; 30th June 2005 at 04:19. Reason: Title of the thread is no longer correct.

28th June 2005, 10:28	#2 \| Link
bond Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 9,770	your screenshots are not showing the same frames? __________________ Between the weak and the strong one it is the freedom which oppresses and the law that liberates (Jean Jacques Rousseau) I know, that I know nothing (Socrates) MPEG-4 ASP FAQ \| AVC/H.264 FAQ \| AAC FAQ \| MP4 FAQ \| MP4Menu stores DVD Menus in MP4 (guide) Ogg Theora \| Ogg Vorbis use WM9 today and get Micro$oft controlling the A/V market tomorrow for free

30th June 2005, 05:30	#11 \| Link
hrlslcbr Registered User Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 29	Hello. I also get brighter colours using VMR9, but I believe that it is not a problem of the VMR9 filter, but a problem of the overlay mixer producing colours that are too dark. The blacks of the second image you posted seemed ok to me; not too bright, but the first one is too dark. If your source is DVD, then the colour range is 16-235 and not 0-255 so black will not (or should not) look like black on a PC monitor, but should appear slightly grey; and that's what you're getting with the VMR9 filter. The black bars on the second image are 16,16,16 (RGB), and the ones in the first one are 0,0,0. Last edited by hrlslcbr; 30th June 2005 at 05:37.

28th June 2005, 10:59	#3 \| Link
azsd 6502 fan Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: forest Posts: 131	not same but similar frame....

28th June 2005, 18:42	#4 \| Link
yokem55 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 74	Do you have any brightness settings set with ffdshow?

28th June 2005, 20:49	#5 \| Link
Sergejack Confused User Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 145	similar frame ? Have you heard about those cloud things ? You need the same frames to show the difference you're talking about.

29th June 2005, 00:04	#7 \| Link
LoKi128 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 37	Sorry about the two different frames! Going to the same "frame" in MPC didnt give me the same frame at all, and after a bit of moving the slider around and playing the movie, I just said "eff it" and used diff shots. Anyway, I think the diff is pretty obvious anyway. Well, I'm back home from work, so I'll try a few different versions of x264 and see what I get. Oh and I don't have any brightness settings in ffdshow. I usually only have postprocessing and sharpen, but for this test I disabled them all.

29th June 2005, 20:02	#8 \| Link
Pookie Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,339	Here's my comparison of source Mpeg2 vs target x264. The x264 is a bit brighter - not too bad, however.

30th June 2005, 03:56	#9 \| Link
LoKi128 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 37	Well, I've been kinda busy. Anyway, played the video back with mplayer and it shows the correct brightness. So the problem has to be in either mpc or ffdshow. So i play it with WMP6.4 and it also has the correct brightness. So it is definetly MPC. I play around with the different output options: System Default: OK Old Renderer: OK Overlay Mixer: OK VMR9 (windowed): Too bright, jerky VMR9 (renderless): Too bright The "render video in 2D/3D" settings don't change the brightness of the output in VMR9 mode. This is all with MPC 6.4.8.4. At this point I don't know if it is a problem with MPC or with the windows VMR9 drivers or whatever. Anyone know what could be affecting the VMR9 "side" of the output, or where to tweak that?

30th June 2005, 04:18	#10 \| Link
LoKi128 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 37	Did some searching, found this post that mentions changing the output colorspace of ffdshow to YUY2 to output the correct range of values. That didnt help. So I disabled them all and just left RGB32 (with the high quality option ticked) and that fixed the problem. This thread is obviously not related to x264 at all. Maybe it should be moved into Software Players or some other appropriate place.

14th July 2005, 03:41	#12 \| Link
Beave Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 205	I had the same problem and discovered in some other forum that this is a typical VMR9 feature. It has the black point at around 15 % higher than it should like described in the post above. There is some advantage to this I can't remember. The same for the whites as well. You are supposed to adjust your screen so that the blacks get black again (16 should look like 0 after lowering the brightness of the display). There are even some parts of calibration DVDs that just cover this part. My suggestion is to use overlay on normal computer monitors and VMR9 on dedicated Movie-Monitors like your HTPC under the TV. Somewhere in the avsforum there are huge threads and how-tos about this.

2nd January 2006, 09:50	#13 \| Link
donjuan03 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13	My IPod 5g (video) seems to use the VRM9 type blackness and it is making my encoded videos look over bright is there any recommendations for encoding with limitations such as I have? Any help appreciated

2nd January 2006, 14:16	#14 \| Link
3ngel Registered User Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 457	This brightness problem has been discussed in another thread "Decoder Filter for x264 decoding", and has been discovered that there is a real issue in the FFDShow decoding regarding brightness and color space. With the default FFDShow settings the color space is junked. Allowing only RGB24 and RGB32 on FFDShow, the color space problem is gone, but the decoding remains a bit more bright than the original source (or compared to other decoders). I think atm it's a kind of a bug.

3rd January 2006, 20:10	#15 \| Link
donjuan03 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13	So during the encoding this problem occurs or during playback because it seems to happen during playback on my computer (unless i switch to overlay) and it happens with playback on the IPOD as well. Maybe I could encode it darker expecting the brightness gain, but I would like to find the source rather than avoid it.

3rd January 2006, 22:01	#18 \| Link
donjuan03 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13	So what about the ipod where I have no control over the rendering settings, how should I accomodate to that?

4th January 2006, 02:15	#19 \| Link
foxyshadis Angel of Night Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Tangled in the silks Posts: 9,559	donjuan, add ColorYUV(levels="TV->PC") to the end of the avisynth script, if it is this problem. If it's just a bright backlight maybe you should just lower the movie brightness. Since you generally need to make specialized encodings for ipod anyway, compared to PC archival versions, you might as well modify the encoding procedure. That is unless anyone knows a better way.

4th January 2006, 22:11	#20 \| Link
cjei Registered User Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 9	i have a similar issue with overlay. Overlay seems to assume Rec.709 colorimetry for my 1280x720 encodes. Are we supposed to use Rec.709 for hd encodes ??