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Old 20th June 2005, 17:23   #1  |  Link
travisbell
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Sample HD MPEG-1 Clip...

Hey guys, found this site just now. They are saying that with their MPEG-1 VBR (~5mbps) you can fit a 2 hour HD video on standard DVDs. Downloaded their test HD demo and it does look pretty good -- BUT, since I am no video guru I am wondering if someone can explain to me how this is different than MPEG-2/ASP/AVC.

Main site, http://www.digigami.com/megapeg/samples.php

Download HD demo, http://www.digigami.com/megapeg/samp...Likely_PSA.mpg

Thanks!!
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Old 20th June 2005, 17:48   #2  |  Link
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interesting
my athlon 1700 can play that clip without (or very few) dropped frames
looks nice to me
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Old 21st June 2005, 11:16   #3  |  Link
SeeMoreDigital
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Actually, there's nothing new at generating Mpeg1 encodes at high-def resolutions... I've been doing it more than five years for use at exhibition stands!

As with Mpeg2 and Mpeg4, Mpeg1 has really improved as a codec in recent years.... It's just a real shame the majority of people still associate it with VCD (and VCD bit-rates).

By the way, for some reason the "Least_Likely_PSA.mpeg" sample has been given aspect ratio signalling. After re-signalling to 1:1, the encode looks fine


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Old 21st June 2005, 14:53   #4  |  Link
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can you recommend a windows mpeg1 encoder for HD? (incl vbr)
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Old 21st June 2005, 15:45   #5  |  Link
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Just use TMPGEnc 2.5x, MPEG1 support will never expire...
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Old 22nd June 2005, 13:36   #6  |  Link
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this sample is very dark and in a 2.35 AR => hight compressibility.
it as also a lots a block in some aeras.

i've tested and used a lot mpeg1 and mpeg2, with hdtv here's MY visual impression:
hdtv mpeg2 > 10 mbps looks good.
hdtv mpeg1 > 15 mbps looks good also.
hdtv mpeg2 < 6 mbps looks like crap.
hdtv mpeg1 < 9 mbps looks like crap.

with a very good mpeg1 encoder with custom matrix, and 3 or more passes, i think it can do good looking HDTV quality around 9-10mbps, less than that is a dream.

ps: i have better result in encoding mpeg1 with quenc than with tmpgenc (and it's free).
ps2: if it's for hdtv archiving on DVD media, just use mpeg2, you will always have a better quality, and all graphics card (since around 1999-2000) have full mpeg2 hardware decoding

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Last edited by Shinobu; 22nd June 2005 at 13:40.
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Old 22nd June 2005, 13:48   #7  |  Link
Kika
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Quote:
i have better result in encoding mpeg1 with quenc than with tmpgenc (and it's free).
Did you ever try CQ-Mode with P- and B-Spoilage setting of 0?
Works good with 1280x720 and 960x720
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Old 8th July 2005, 10:50   #8  |  Link
digigami
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinobu
this sample is very dark and in a 2.35 AR => hight compressibility.
it as also a lots a block in some aeras.

i've tested and used a lot mpeg1 and mpeg2, with hdtv here's MY visual impression:
hdtv mpeg2 > 10 mbps looks good.
hdtv mpeg1 > 15 mbps looks good also.
hdtv mpeg2 < 6 mbps looks like crap.
hdtv mpeg1 < 9 mbps looks like crap.

with a very good mpeg1 encoder with custom matrix, and 3 or more passes, i think it can do good looking HDTV quality around 9-10mbps, less than that is a dream.

ps: i have better result in encoding mpeg1 with quenc than with tmpgenc (and it's free).
ps2: if it's for hdtv archiving on DVD media, just use mpeg2, you will always have a better quality, and all graphics card (since around 1999-2000) have full mpeg2 hardware decoding
I'm curious about the assertions you make in your post here, especially regarding the differences between MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 bitrates. MPEG-2 adds many new features over MPEG-1, but for 24p (ie. feature film) encoding, there are few. Instead, most of the new features in MPEG-2 are related to the coding of interlaced video. These features include, dct_type, alternate_scan, field_picture, field motion vectors (4-per macroblock) etc.

For standard 24p encoding, there are few gains to be had, at least, that is my experience as the developer of MegaPEG and MPressionist.

Also, you refer to block artifacts in our MPEG-1 HD sample. This sample is designed to illustrate the use of MPEG-1 as a HD streaming/delivery format, not as an archival format. I am curious to know what decoder you are using to evaluate the stream. The diagnostic tool I use primarily is MPressionist, and it includes both highly-accurate (reference) and fairly-accurate (commonly-implemented) IDCT algorithms. My guess is that if you are seeing visible artifacts then the IDCT implementation of your decoder software is not conforming to the MPEG standard. I've reviewed our HD stream in a number of players, including Apple's MPEG-2 decoder (MPEG-2 playback component), MPressionist, VideoLAN and Windows Media Player, and no artifacts are visible under normal viewing conditions, which is to say, the same conditions one would use when watching TV.

Could you describe the playback environment you are using? Thanks.

Gen Kiyooka
--------------------------------------------------
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MegaPEG MPEG-2 Encoder - people disagree as to whether it's any good.
MPressionist MPEG-2 Analyzer - no disagreements with this one, everybody likes it.

Last edited by digigami; 23rd December 2005 at 23:25.
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Old 22nd December 2005, 21:35   #9  |  Link
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for info

http://www.digigami.com/index.html

Mpeg2 better than h264 ?
What H264 encoder is used for the comparaison?
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Old 23rd December 2005, 03:00   #10  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digigami
For standard 24p encoding, there are few gains to be had, at least, that is my experience as the developer of MegaPEG and MPressionist.

Gen Kiyooka
Digigami
I've read with interest your press release claiming the very best performance of your VBR MPEG-2 HD encoder. Being myself involved in codecs development, I've to admit that I'm simply amazed by such assertions. With some exaggerations, it's like saying "tractors run faster than formula1 race cars" and you should be very brave to affirm this

Hence, as you can guess I'm really wondering what kind of nitro you load into your tractors to make them so good Obviously I'm not asking you to unveil your secrets but maybe you could at least enlight us with some technical clarifications with regard to your claims : encoding conditions (resolutions, bitrate, rate control constraints, etc.), which H.264 did you compare to and how it was set, how did you compare, and what makes you say which result is better than the other (objective metrics, subjective assessment ?), etc.

Thanks !
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Old 23rd December 2005, 06:43   #11  |  Link
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@easyfab and bobololo
looking here http://digigami.in-long-beach-ca.com...-VBR/commandN/
it seems he compares with *cough* apple quicktime h.264 :P (no comment)
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Old 23rd December 2005, 13:11   #12  |  Link
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IMO digigami encoder isn't better than for libavcodec for MPEG2 ... lol
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Old 23rd December 2005, 14:35   #13  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CruNcher
@easyfab and bobololo
looking here http://digigami.in-long-beach-ca.com...-VBR/commandN/
it seems he compares with *cough* apple quicktime h.264 :P (no comment)
Well, looks like normal marketing to me.. Of course they must know that their claims are not true if they use a good h.264 encoder for comparison.
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Old 23rd December 2005, 19:24   #14  |  Link
digigami
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Willing to Compare

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnV
Well, looks like normal marketing to me.. Of course they must know that their claims are not true if they use a good h.264 encoder for comparison.
Hi -

Thanks for the responses. Currently, the primary marketing thrust of H.264 is that it can compress HD feature films down into the same bitrates as standard definition DVD. Our marketing is aimed at demonstrating that MPEG-2 VBR is a viable alternative to H.264 for this purpose. As I stated in my blog, I am willing to do comparative analysis. I am not interested in comparing 5s test clips of random camcorder footage, but rather professionally produced feature film/motion graphics/TV content.

It is not strictly marketing. Both our MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 VBR encoders are producing HD bitstreams with average bitrates well below 9mbs/s. If you look about 1 year ago we were promoting our MPEG-1 encoder as an alternative to Real/Flash for streaming video. You will also find a 1/2 D1 NTSC MPEG-2 sample for DVD on our web site at 0.5mbs/s. There's a consistent theme here - not an isolated incident.

In the last 24 hours I produced a 1280x720x50 fps version of the Mako Shark Club Jacket sample to HD-DVD specs, average bitrate 11 mbits/s and the quality is essentially perfect.

In order for MPEG-2 VBR to be a viable alternative to H.264, it does not have to be better, it merely needs to be comparable.

As far as the quality goes, the clips on our site speak for themselves.

Gen

--------------------------------------------------
Digigami
MegaPEG MPEG-2 Encoder - people disagree as to whether it's any good.
MPressionist MPEG-2 Analyzer - no disagreements with this one, everybody likes it.

Last edited by digigami; 23rd December 2005 at 23:26.
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Old 23rd December 2005, 19:32   #15  |  Link
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commandN Sample -> Recompress it Smaller Than MPEG-1

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnV
Well, looks like normal marketing to me.. Of course they must know that their claims are not true if they use a good h.264 encoder for comparison.
If you look in the CommandN folder, you will find the H.264 QuickTime version. Go ahead and compress it using Nero. According to H.264 marketing you will be able to get it down to 1/2 the size of my MPEG-1/MPEG-2 file. So around 85MB. Complete the test and I will post the results and write about it in my blog.

My personal belief is that there are fundamental lower limits (called the entropy of a clip) which can be approached by any good encoder technology but reducing further one runs into the law of diminishing returns.

Also, if you have a sample you'd also like to compare with, I prefer to start with a high quality source.

Gen

--------------------------------------------------
Digigami
MegaPEG MPEG-2 Encoder - people disagree as to whether it's any good.
MPressionist MPEG-2 Analyzer - no disagreements with this one, everybody likes it.

Last edited by digigami; 23rd December 2005 at 23:26.
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Old 23rd December 2005, 19:41   #16  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobololo
technical clarifications with regard to your claims : encoding conditions (resolutions, bitrate, rate control constraints, etc.)
Thanks !
Generally, the encoding target(s) are standard HD profiles used in DTV, HD-DVD etc. Strictly speaking, I think most people are interested in feature film content at HD resolutions, so 24/25 fps at 1920x1080 or 1280x720. Bitrate constraints derived from the standards. 18 mbits/s (720p ATSC HDTV ceiling). 25 mbits/s (1080 ATSC HDTV). 27 mbits/s (HD-DVD).

For H.264 samples I use what I can find. If you have suggestions, I'd like to hear them.

BTW, as I am not an H.264 expert, what features does H.264 have for coding interlaced video?
--------------------------------------------------
Digigami
MegaPEG MPEG-2 Encoder - people disagree as to whether it's any good.
MPressionist MPEG-2 Analyzer - no disagreements with this one, everybody likes it.

Last edited by digigami; 23rd December 2005 at 23:26.
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Old 23rd December 2005, 19:51   #17  |  Link
digigami
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Comparing

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobololo
how did you compare, and what makes you say which result is better than the other (objective metrics, subjective assessment ?), etc.
This is how I compare things:
http://www.digigami.com/mpressionist...n=comparesplit

I wrote this tool specifically so I can have these kinds of discussions without the dialogue descending into mud-slinging and religious fervour.

I can compare side by side with split screen:
Source/MPEG-2
Source/H.264
MPEG-2/H.264
MPEG-2/MPEG-2

Also, can compare pixel residue (actual per-pixel frame differences) which is useful for picking up differences too fine for the eyes to see.

How do you compare?

Gen

--------------------------------------------------
Digigami
MegaPEG MPEG-2 Encoder - people disagree as to whether it's any good.
MPressionist MPEG-2 Analyzer - no disagreements with this one, everybody likes it.

Last edited by digigami; 23rd December 2005 at 23:26.
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Old 23rd December 2005, 19:53   #18  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digigami
Hi -

Thanks for the responses. Currently, the primary marketing thrust of H.264 is that it can compress HD feature films down into the same bitrates as standard definition DVD. Our marketing is aimed at demonstrating that MPEG-2 VBR is a viable alternative to H.264 for this purpose. As I stated in my blog, I am willing to do comparative analysis. I am not interested in comparing 5s test clips of random camcorder footage, but rather professionally produced feature film/motion graphics/TV content.

It is not strictly marketing. Both our MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 VBR encoders are producing HD bitstreams with average bitrates well below 9mbs/s. If you look about 1 year ago we were promoting our MPEG-1 encoder as an alternative to Real/Flash for streaming video. You will also find a 1/2 D1 NTSC MPEG-2 sample for DVD on our web site at 0.5mbs/s. There's a consistent theme here - not an isolated incident.

In the last 24 hours I produced a 1280x720x50 fps version of the Mako Shark Club Jacket sample to HD-DVD specs, average bitrate 11 mbits/s and the quality is essentially perfect.

In order for MPEG-2 VBR to be a viable alternative to H.264, it does not have to be better, it merely needs to be comparable.

As far as the quality goes, the clips on our site speak for themselves.

Gen

Well 11 Mbps for 1280*720*50 or 1920*1088*25 is very high bitrate for H264. Apple QT7 AVC done very good result with 1920*1088*25 trailers sources (very uncompressible sources) and it isn't by far the best AVC encoder. Try with 1.1 Mbps and with good H264 codec and see the result ... !!!

Here little H264 1280*720 encoding at 1250 Mbps ... try to make that with MPEG1/2 ...

I test your demo encoder and it isn't visually very better than the other popular MPEG2 encoder. Say "MPEG2 is better than H264" (source? bitrate? average quant? subjective? objective?) is totaly ridiculous ...

I have little challenge for you : try to prove that your MPEG2 encoder is the best for metric ...
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=98633
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Last edited by Sagittaire; 23rd December 2005 at 20:00.
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Old 23rd December 2005, 20:35   #19  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagittaire
I have little challenge for you : try to prove that your MPEG2 encoder is the best for metric ...
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=98633
At SD resolutions, the smaller DCT block size in H.264 is definitely an advantage. Not so much of an advantage for 720p and definitely not an advantage for 1080p.

I will look at it. From what source did you obtain the trailer? DVD?

- Gen

--------------------------------------------------
Digigami
MegaPEG MPEG-2 Encoder - people disagree as to whether it's any good.
MPressionist MPEG-2 Analyzer - no disagreements with this one, everybody likes it.

Last edited by digigami; 23rd December 2005 at 23:27.
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Old 23rd December 2005, 20:36   #20  |  Link
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Does not Play - Suggestions...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagittaire
little H264 1280*720 encoding at 1250 Mbps ... try to make that with MPEG1/2 ...
This file plays as garbage in QuickTime. I also tried VideoLAN.

What playback system do you recommend.

Also, what source was used in the compression?

Gen
--------------------------------------------------
Digigami
MegaPEG MPEG-2 Encoder - people disagree as to whether it's any good.
MPressionist MPEG-2 Analyzer - no disagreements with this one, everybody likes it.

Last edited by digigami; 23rd December 2005 at 23:27.
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