*DVD-Audio

[Edge]

I was wondering if anyone had any info on how to extract data-streams (I imagine AC3, but I'm not sure on even this issue) from *.AOB files contained in the AUDIO_TS directory on DVD-Audio discs. It appears that these files don't suffer from the same issue as files in the VIDEO_TS folder (eg: not CSS encrypted; I copied them off using just Explorer), but I've been unable to find any utilities/tools to work with them.

For the curious, here's the contents of the AUDIO_TS directory of Metallica's DVD-Audio disc--

 Volume in drive R is METALLICA_BLACK
 Volume Serial Number is 012E-45F4

 Directory of R:\AUDIO_TS

03/07/2001  03:06a      <DIR>          .
03/07/2001  03:06a      <DIR>          ..
03/07/2001  03:06a               6,144 ATS_01_0.BUP
03/07/2001  03:06a               6,144 ATS_01_0.IFO
03/07/2001  03:06a       1,073,709,056 ATS_01_1.AOB
03/07/2001  03:06a       1,073,709,056 ATS_01_2.AOB
03/07/2001  03:06a       1,073,709,056 ATS_01_3.AOB
03/07/2001  03:06a       1,073,709,056 ATS_01_4.AOB
03/07/2001  03:06a       1,073,709,056 ATS_01_5.AOB
03/07/2001  03:06a         287,111,168 ATS_01_6.AOB
03/07/2001  03:06a             131,072 AUDIO_PP.IFO
03/07/2001  03:06a               4,096 AUDIO_SV.BUP
03/07/2001  03:06a               4,096 AUDIO_SV.IFO
03/07/2001  03:06a           8,130,560 AUDIO_SV.VOB
03/07/2001  03:06a              10,240 AUDIO_TS.BUP
03/07/2001  03:06a              10,240 AUDIO_TS.IFO
03/07/2001  03:06a           1,327,104 AUDIO_TS.VOB
03/07/2001  03:06a           3,145,728 DVDAUDIO.BUP
03/07/2001  03:06a           3,145,728 DVDAUDIO.MKB
              17 File(s)  5,671,577,600 bytes
               2 Dir(s)               0 bytes free

Again, I'm guessing the audio content is in all of the AOB files, I'm not sure what the MKB file is (that's a new one), but it has the same exact size as the BUP above it (and it has the exact same content according to "FC /b" at the command prompt).

Any help would be appreciated though, thanks! =)

[DSPguru]

as far as i remember, DVD-Audio holds music compressed in MLP format. that's not AC3...

MLP is a loseless compression, AC3 is lossy.
they are both multichannel, but MLP also support 24bits/96khz and other superior-sound-quality coding.

[Doom9]

hmm.. you can copy these? but I bet they're still encrypted. DVD Audio uses an encryption format superior to CSS (or so they say.. until it gets cracked

[Edge]

Originally posted by Doom9
hmm.. you can copy these? but I bet they're still encrypted. DVD Audio uses an encryption format superior to CSS (or so they say.. until it gets cracked ;)

Yah, it just copied right off. Case in point--

Microsoft Windows 2000 [Version 5.00.2195]
(C) Copyright 1985-2000 Microsoft Corp.

C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator>r:

R:\>cd AUDIO_TS

R:\AUDIO_TS>f:

F:\>mkdir "DVD-Audio Test"

F:\>cd "DVD-Audio Test"

F:\DVD-Audio Test>copy r:*.*
r:ATS_01_0.BUP
r:ATS_01_0.IFO
r:ATS_01_1.AOB
r:ATS_01_2.AOB
r:ATS_01_3.AOB
r:ATS_01_4.AOB
r:ATS_01_5.AOB
r:ATS_01_6.AOB
r:AUDIO_PP.IFO
r:AUDIO_SV.BUP
r:AUDIO_SV.IFO
r:AUDIO_SV.VOB
r:AUDIO_TS.BUP
r:AUDIO_TS.IFO
r:AUDIO_TS.VOB
r:DVDAUDIO.BUP
r:DVDAUDIO.MKB
       17 file(s) copied.

F:\DVD-Audio Test>

I also did an "FC /b" (file compare) on all of the copied off files in case the data that got written to disk was different than the data off of the DVD and AFAIK it appears the same. It could still be encrypted like you said (I haven't heard of any PC DVD-Audio players as of yet), but I'm definately curious if it's at all possible nonetheless. =) And like you said, even if it is, it's only a matter of time. Incidentally, some of the files in the VIDEO_TS directory are CSS encrypted, so clearly they're using the tools they have available. (The video content is tiny in comparison though, just the bare minimum to play the music and have a few menus-- you'd think bands/musicians would want to utililize the format to its logical ends; music videos for all the tracks and so on.)

If anyone has any ideas or knows of any tools that would possibly help with this, drop me a line (**OR** if anyone even knows of any PC DVD-Audio disc players-- It seems nothing like this exists currently). Thanks. =)

If i remember correctly the MLP is only used for 6 channel 24 Bit 96 KHz surround sound on DVD-Audios.

Stereo is 24 Bits 192 KHz pure PCM, no compression ....

[mpucoder]

The fact that you can copy and verify the files doesn't mean they're not encrypted, just that you don't need to "authenticate" the drive. CPPM, which is used for DVD-Audio, is really nasty. The .mkb file is a "media key block" which indicates CPPM is being used (not surprising considering Metallica's stand against Napster)

edit: Audio formats allowed -
LPCM (1-6 channels, 44.1K, 48K, 88.2K, 96K, 176.4K, or 192K, 16/20/24 bits) mandatory
MLP (Meridian Lossless Packing) same options as LPCM, players are required to support
also allowed Dolby Digital (required if video accompanies), MPEG 1&2, and DTS.
video may appear in AOB's or VOB's - the difference is in restrictions, VOB is identical to DVD-video, and may be CSS encrypted (but not CPPM). AOB's can use both CPPM and CSS.

How nasty is CPPM? keys are changed every PACK (1920 bytes), keys are recorded in the sector header, which is not readable by DVD-Rom. Ecryption is much stronger than CSS (they learned) with 56-bit keys applied to 64-bit data chunks.

I'm glad I like movies better.

[kheops]

Originally posted by mpucoder

How nasty is CPPM? keys are changed every PACK (1920 bytes), keys are recorded in the sector header, which is not readable by DVD-Rom.

So I suppose that no win32 player exists yet to play these files...
Do you know if someone is studying the "cppm" format to make a decrypter ?
Lightning and the author of smartripper, what do you think ?

thanks.

[mpucoder]

Well, using a DVD-Rom drive you'll have to work without the keys. Have you ever watched how long it takes for SmartRipper to deduce the key? And those are EASY compared to CPPM. But, let's say you can crack each key in about 1 second, that gets you roughly 2K of the 4G disk. Total time would be 2,000,000 seconds, or 23 days, 3 hours, 33 minutes, and 20 seconds.

[kheops]

Originally posted by mpucoder
23 days, 3 hours, 33 minutes, and 20 seconds.

for sure it doesn't take so long in a standalone player

your previous post says

much stronger than CSS (they learned) with 56-bit keys applied to 64-bit data chunks

is the decrypting process of a standalone soooo powerful that even 1ghz computers we can easily find now would need so much time to decrypt a dvd audio ?

i feel lost...

[Rhaegar Targaryen]

Originally posted by kheops


is the decrypting process of a standalone soooo powerful that even 1ghz computers we can easily find now would need so much time to decrypt a dvd audio ?

i feel lost...

I dont think you quite understand how these things work. A standalone would not "crack" it using a brute-force method. The standalone maker would have a license from blahblahblah consortium to use some sort of Decryption chip which can read the file.

Only on computers we would need to do brute-force cracking since we don't know the details of the encryption method.

[mpucoder]

That's close, but not exactly true. We do know the details of the encryption method. What a computer using a DVD-Rom reader cannot get is the decryption keys. These are recorded on the disk in an area that no current DVD-Rom can access, making brute force the only means of decrypting.
There are 2 possible futures, and neither will make everybody happy. 1) The legislation that we all oppose forcing copy protection into all removable-media and recordable devices passes, in which case you will see DVD-Audio players for Windows (but it will require a new DVD drive, and possibly new HD as well). 2) You will never see a DVD-Audio player for Windows, Linux, or any other OS.

Personally, I like freedom, and if that means never ripping a DVD-Audio disk, so be it.

[Edge]

Originally posted by mpucoder
That's close, but not exactly true. We do know the details of the encryption method. What a computer using a DVD-Rom reader cannot get is the decryption keys. These are recorded on the disk in an area that no current DVD-Rom can access, making brute force the only means of decrypting.
There are 2 possible futures, and neither will make everybody happy. 1) The legislation that we all oppose forcing copy protection into all removable-media and recordable devices passes, in which case you will see DVD-Audio players for Windows (but it will require a new DVD drive, and possibly new HD as well). 2) You will never see a DVD-Audio player for Windows, Linux, or any other OS.

Personally, I like freedom, and if that means never ripping a DVD-Audio disk, so be it.

I find it hard to believe that it can't be read though.. sure, there's no players in existance for PC's, but then the demand probably doesn't even exist yet. I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe that there's any special unreadable blocks of data that are needed to decode DVD-Audio; the answer to me seems to be that nobody has simply written one yet (again, due to (lack of) demand).

Do you have any concrete evidence that these encoded blocks exist? A website with details on the specification, or perhaps some of your own research? I'm genuinely curious about what type of roadblocks exist, but I'd like some details. =)

[mpucoder]

Yes, the book DVD Demystified, 2nd edition, pp 193-195, 488.

[Edge]

Originally posted by mpucoder
Yes, the book DVD Demystified, 2nd edition, pp 193-195, 488.

Awesome, didn't have that book (or even know it existed)-- good bn.com though, just ordered it, should be here sometime next week. Is there any other material worth reading, be it online or off, that you could suggest?

[mpucoder]

Well, there is Jim Taylor's website DVD Demystified which contains the dvdfaq, but that is mostly a tease to get you to buy his book. Also, the book doesn't tell everything, that would put Mr. Taylor in violation of the NDA he must have signed to get his info.
And for DVD-Video stuff that has been gleaned from many sources on the web, may I humbly suggest MPUCoder's DVD Info

[Edge]

I asked the author of DVD Demystified (and the DVD-FAQ) about DVD-Audio on home PC's and this was his response--

DVD-Audio could be played using current DVD-ROM drives, but no one has
released any software to do so.

--
Jim Taylor
Author of DVD Demystified and the DVD FAQ <http://dvddemystified.com>

----

This was in answer to the basic question "Can current DVD-ROMs in PCs play DVD-Audio, or is new firmware and/or hardware required to play such discs - and if so, is there software out now or in development to meet this need?".

Just a follow-up for anyone curious about DVD-Audio and the possibility of ripping it (afterall, if it can be played, it most likely can be ripped).

[michaelvv]

Hello everybody...

Is it possibly to make a copy/backup of a DVD-AUDIO disc
I had heard it isn't possible ???????

Had tried but without any success.....

Sincerely

michael , denmark.

[ultrabrutal]

I have backed up the dvd video part of the disc (Metallica black album). However the dvd audio part is over 6 gb, and as far as I know the encryption has not been broken.
Anyways, since it's over 4.7 you have nowhere to burn it. You can store it on your HD or reencode it, but then you could just rip the ac3 from the dvd video part.

I made a miniDVD from my dvd audio Metallica disc. Works great in my Afreey. I did this before I bought a DVD Audio player. Wow what a difference in sound. DVD Audio kicks CD and DVD Video to hell

[machine70]

i just bought a dvd audio player the sound is good but is downsampled if you go through the digital output .
the only way to listen to 96khz 24bit sound is to to go through the analog output so i asked my self is it possible to copy the dvd-audio and to remove all this protections?
thx

[sebus]

I believe that the latest Creative Audigy 2 software includes the player for DVD-Audio.
Software itself was available on fileconnect and later on some sites. File was named sb_install_eng.zip

sebus