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Old 17th January 2005, 15:51   #81  |  Link
DSP8000
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Hi,

@ E-Male, did you get my email and the images?

Good reference for some of the MB looks are Harry Potter, Catwoman, most of the new DVD movies.
Bluring with edge detection and detail preservation would be a good starting point before coloring.

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Old 17th January 2005, 15:54   #82  |  Link
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E-Male: Basically, yes. But it's not quite that easy: you would need a blur function that blurs with a rather big radius, but stops using any pixels in a certain direction for averaging as soon as an "edge" is found.
Unrestricted blurring, and applying the result to the "non-ede" areas only, leads to suboptimal results (already tried that, many times). It gets better by using a smart smoother, but that doesn't solve the basic problem of including pixels "from the other side" of an edge into averaging (although it's probably not an issue with blurring radii <= 5, or so).
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Old 17th January 2005, 17:53   #83  |  Link
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@DSP8000:
yep, got them
would be great if you could make new ones when we got some dv-test-footage (as mentioned i prefer close-ups of faces) and/or some test-paterns


@didée:
"out of focus" means totally blurred, so why stop at edges??
doesn't make any sense to me
(although such a denosier would be similar to something have on my ideas-to-code-list, just for cartoons)

i agree on the need for a big radius
is there a blur-filter with variable radius?
if not i'll quickly hack that together
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Old 17th January 2005, 18:10   #84  |  Link
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Quote:
is there a blur-filter with variable radius?
medianblur
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Old 17th January 2005, 18:32   #85  |  Link
E-Male
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wouldn't a simple averaging blur be more effective then median?
since in this case we WANT it blurred badly/strongly
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Old 17th January 2005, 19:04   #86  |  Link
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it would yes. I just don't think anyone has made such a filter. Although you could use YV12Convolution it wouldn't be the most effective. I think I will make one. What colorspace do you need?
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Old 17th January 2005, 19:14   #87  |  Link
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i'd like to do it myself, i can use the training (doesn't mean you can't do one, too, of course)
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Old 18th January 2005, 02:09   #88  |  Link
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Guys, if that were so easy nobody would be selling a 35mm lenses adaptor for MiniDV Camcorders at around U$ 8,000.
35mm DOF cannot be emulated using a filter, of course you can do it by hand...


www.pstechnik.de/datasheets/d_mini35.htm
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Old 18th January 2005, 07:46   #89  |  Link
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a) i did not say it would be easy, i never said that
b) i never said we would reach the quality of comercial projects, i even daubted it
c) there are many expensive things sold which have free alternatives

summa summarum: i won't stop because there is some expensive hardware avaible
and i hope the others here won't either
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Old 18th January 2005, 10:05   #90  |  Link
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I never meant to stop you, if that is exactly what it sounded like.
Sorry.

I was just trying to say that it is "almost" impossible to make a filter that autonomously (if that is the intended way for it to work) detects what should be in focus and what should be out of focus.
Just that.
Sorry again, it seems everytime I say anything I upset you.
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Old 18th January 2005, 10:50   #91  |  Link
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i'm sorry, too
i often sound ruder than i want, too
it's just that to me you sound very negative, but i'm overreacting, i know

about the focus thing, i know it will only help a bit, if at all
but it can be improved, maybe to something usefull, we'll see
i know it'll be slow, but we got some people here that won't be stopped by that
if nothing usefull comes out at the end, i guess the experience will still make it worth it

maybe we should make a list of the variouse part that could/should be in a film-look-script (like sharpening, color curve, ...)
so we can later mark which are done in freeware, which are to improved, which are less neccessary as we thought, ....
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Old 18th January 2005, 13:22   #92  |  Link
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one way to get _slightly_ more DOF is to move the camera back and zoom in a little. obviously the aperture should be open as far as it can be.

i'm intrigued by the DOF simulation in avisynth though. it may be possible to get something that looks okay, but i think DOF isn't all that big a part of the film "look". perhaps something that uses edge-direction to adapt the shape of the filter around edges (this might give a "warpy" look though, and be slow as hell).

look at a film like "24 hour party people" that was actually shot in PAL, interlaced (i didn't realise this until i looked at the out-takes that were still interlaced. though when you watch it critically, it's quite obvious in places).
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Old 18th January 2005, 14:37   #93  |  Link
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is it correct that DV also shows blur on out-of-focus objects, just much less than film?
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Old 18th January 2005, 15:04   #94  |  Link
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I'm curious how you'll try to make the distinction between in-focus and out-of-focus areas. An edgemask-approch will, depending on sensibility, either detect too much edges in the flat areas, or consider parts as out-of-focus that are actually in ...

Before too much fiddling is done, I could imagine that e.g. VagueDenoiser can be set up so that something (roughly) similar is achieved: blur the flat parts, keep the detail.

Bilateral filtering could also be a possibility, when setting the thresholds so that the assumingly "flat" areas just get catched.


edit:

Think about *skin*: A scene of a face that fills 30%-50% of the frame, background is out of focus. But too much area of the skin will show little enough detail to be considered out of focus, although it is in. - Naah, I don't want to think about that any more
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Last edited by Didée; 18th January 2005 at 15:14.
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Old 18th January 2005, 15:34   #95  |  Link
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ok, let's put that sub-topic on hold, i'll report if i get something usefull done there

so, back to making a list:

-colors [very well in progress]
-sharpening [well in progress]
-grain(optional)[done]
-focus(laaaaater)
-..........

please add
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Old 18th January 2005, 16:07   #96  |  Link
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Quote:
-grain(optional)[done]
Hey! You say "done", and didn't even see that "emboss noise":

Code:
o=last
ox=last.width
oy=last.height

blank1 = blankclip(o,width=ox/2 /4*4,height=oy/2 /4*4,color=$000000)
noise1 = blank1.addgrain(15,.0,.0)
noise2 = noise1.DEdgeMask(0,255,0,255,"2 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0",U=-128,V=-128)
NoiseDiff1=yv12lutxy(noise1,noise2,yexpr="x y - 128 +",U=-128,V=-128).bicubicresize(ox,oy)
x=yv12lutxy(o,NoiseDiff1,yexpr="x y 128 - 1.0 / +",U=2,V=2)

blank3 = blankclip(o,width=ox/2 /4*4,height=oy/2 /4*4,color=$808080)
noise3 = blank3.addgrain(15,.0,.0)
noise3a = noise3.FineEdge(1).levels(0,1.0,255,128-15,128+15).greyscale
noise3b = noise3a.DEdgeMask(0,255,0,255,"2 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0",U=-128,V=-128)
NoiseDiff2=yv12lutxy(noise3a,noise3b,yexpr="x y - 128 +",U=-128,V=-128).bicubicresize(ox,oy)
y=yv12lutxy(o,noisediff2,yexpr="x y 128 - 1.0 / +",U=2,V=2)

#NoiseDiff1
NoiseDiff2

return last

#===================================================
function FineEdge( clip clp, int "div" )
       { logic(  clp.DEdgeMask(0,255,0,255,"8 16 8 0 0 0 -8 -16 -8", divisor=div)
          \     ,clp.DEdgeMask(0,255,0,255,"8 0 -8 16 0 -16 8 0 -8", divisor=div), "max", Y=3,U=2,V=2 ) }
Code suffers from major uglyness, I just teared it out of one of those brainstorming scripts - but it's fun to play around with it (different strenghts & blankclip-sizes)
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Old 18th January 2005, 17:15   #97  |  Link
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@E-Male

Other neat things could be black, warm, cold glows - or maybe this can be done with Didée's script above?

And maybe gradients in color/b&w - to grade down a blown out sky, make it ex. more red/blue or darker - or to grade down the corners of the image like A short film about killing.

Great work!

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Old 18th January 2005, 19:11   #98  |  Link
E-Male
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@Didée:
i thought addgrain would do the job
but seems like you scripted together some improvement again
what does your script do exactly? (i honestly can't understand it all, except that you do something with edges and LUTs again)


@Guest:
the corners thing should be done with a mask i think

for the rest:
i'm a victim of my lack of vocabulary in this area (english isn't my native language)
"glow" and "gradient" need some explaination in this context
(googeling for "gradient definition" gave some nasty mathematic non-video-related stuff)
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Old 18th January 2005, 19:43   #99  |  Link
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Several gradients:
http://home.att.net/~arwomack01/imag...T-GRADIENT.jpg

Glow-effect:
http://www.aons58.dsl.pipex.com/tuto...owing_text.jpg

How this should look like with real footage:
Original
The glowing version
And the glowing version with the mask used to limit the effect
Glow mask

The effect is deliberately overdone

Last edited by communist; 18th January 2005 at 20:03.
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Old 18th January 2005, 20:53   #100  |  Link
E-Male
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thx, very nice examples

but what would the gradient thing do in this context? (sorry, but i'm a bit slow today)

the glow thing, well, i knew it with text, plan to use a variation of it on titles
but in how far has this to do with film look? couldn't get that much info from the extrem picture (but nice messiah-look)
i'm also not sure how to do it in avisynth, i mean finding the edges is done, but i think the glow should only go to the outside of teh object, which cannot easily be found outomatically
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