DivX vs H.264 vs Recode 2, etc. Confused.

valnar · 28th September 2004, 00:16

I've been happily using DivX 5.05 and Gordian Knot for about a year making backups of my DVD's into AVI files, and unfortunately not spent much time on this site reading about the new containers and formats.

Can anyone point me to the FAQ's about what is H.264 and ***how it compares to or is different from*** DivX or XVID? And the new container formats? Is there any reason I want to stop using AVI files with DivX and move onto Nero Recode for the future?

My goal is to maintain the same quality, or move up, but to add chapters and subtitles to integrate within the container. Having them seperate is annoying. (No, I don't want anything proprietary like Mastroka or Ogg).

Thanks!
Robert

bond · 28th September 2004, 01:11

what about using search, there is a whole sticky in the new av codecs forum, which describes exactly what you want: how divx/xvid is related to h.264. also there are plenty of stickies about new container formats, guess where: in the new av container forum

plus you will find lots of infos by using search and reading

striked

stephanV · 28th September 2004, 11:36

Quote:

Originally posted by valnar
(No, I don't want anything proprietary like Mastroka or Ogg).

WTH - if there's anything not proprietary its Matroska and Ogg...

valnar · 28th September 2004, 12:16

Quote:

plus you will find lots of infos by using search and reading

As is always the case when somebody asks a question, too much information. Hence the reason I wrote.

Robert

Neo Neko · 6th October 2004, 00:27

Quote:

Originally posted by valnar
Can anyone point me to the FAQ's about what is H.264 and ***how it compares to or is different from*** DivX or XVID?

h.264/avc/mpeg4 part 10 is quite different to traditional MPEG4. So much so that you can't reuse much code from an existing MPEG4 project to jumpstart an h264 project. The main way in which it is different with respect to someone interested mainly in encoding is that it will offer higher quality at lower bitrates. If you really want all the ways they are differnt then get the specs side by side and start reading.

Quote:

Originally posted by valnar
And the new container formats? Is there any reason I want to stop using AVI files with DivX and move onto Nero Recode for the future?

There are millions of reasons to stop using AVI. Not that recode offers any. Recode encodes to MP4. But outside of that IIRC it does not offer much special at the moment.

Quote:

Originally posted by valnar
My goal is to maintain the same quality, or move up, but to add chapters and subtitles to integrate within the container. Having them seperate is annoying. (No, I don't want anything proprietary like Mastroka or Ogg).

Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

pro·pri·e·tar·y

Quote:

Main Entry: 1pro·pri·e·tary
Pronunciation: p(r)&-'prI-&-"ter-E
Function: noun
Inflected Form: plural -tar·ies
0 : something that is used, produced, or marketed under exclusive legal right of the inventor or maker; specifically : a drug (as a patent medicine) that is protected by secrecy, patent, or copyright against free competition as to name, product, composition, or process of manufacture

Do you happen to know what proprietary means??!

non-proprietary

Quote:

Matroska is an open standards project. This means for personal use it is absolutely free to use and that the technical specifications describing the bitstream are open to everybody, even to companies that would like to support it in their products. The source code of the libraries developed by the Matroska Development Team is licensed under GNU L-GPL.

That's decidedly non-proprietary.

Quote:

Originally posted by valnar
As is always the case when somebody asks a question, too much information. Hence the reason I wrote.

Robert

I think what bond was getting at is that there were much better places. Rather much more relevant places to be asking said questions. Namely
here and here.

Indeed alot of what you have asked has, is, or will be addressed right there!

valnar · 6th October 2004, 01:29

By proprietary, I mean a STB will support it, like AVI files or the DVD format. Show me an STB that works with OGG/OGM or Mastroka, and I'll start using it. As far as I know, my only playback device for those is a PC?

Will the MP4 format take off?

Robert

stephanV · 6th October 2004, 10:54

Quote:

Originally posted by valnar
By proprietary, I mean a STB will support it, like AVI files or the DVD format. Show me an STB that works with OGG/OGM or Mastroka, and I'll start using it. As far as I know, my only playback device for those is a PC?

Well you cant just re-write the dictionary can you? (and you still don't make much sense here i think...)

Are you free to use MPEG2/DVD? No, you have to deal with licenses first. Are you free to use MPEG4? Nope, same thing. Are you free to use Matroska to your liking? Yes. Are you free to use Ogg? Yes.

I don't see what standalone support has to do with being proprietary. If Matroska guys could find a company that would support their container on standalones, i think they'd applaud that. But you have to remember that Ogg and Matroska are created entirely for free and those people don't make money out of it. They don't have any means to push the industry.

Please be careful, "proprietary" is for a lot of people a curse-word around here.

SeeMoreDigital · 6th October 2004, 11:18

I understand your frustration valnar, it would be great to have an "holy-grail" type stand-alone player that could spin every type of container under the sun... but just think about what you are asking!

Take MKV for example. This container can accept just about any combination of audio and video stream. There are many people who use it to mux Real video and AAC audio streams, which is fine... but currently there are no hardware players with chip-sets capable of decoding RealVideo and very few chip-sets that will decode AAC audio...

So before we have players that can support all the containers you want. We need to have chip-sets that can decode their content!

Cheers

EDIT: spelling changes

bond · 6th October 2004, 21:35

"proprieatary" is a pretty meaningless word in this context imho. does anyone think that matroska isnt owned by someone? it would be an interesting case, but i indeed think that the writers of the matroska specs have copyright on it, "own" it. still the ones who might have it dont charge anything for using it and thats the more important part from my point of view...

its more important whether things are license-free or not, like xiph's codecs (vorbis, theora aso...) clearly beat mpeg-4 in that matter, altough for example theora and mpeg-4 both are "proprieatary", patented technologies

chilledoutuk · 11th October 2004, 13:49

Quote:

I understand your frustration valnar, it would be great to have an "holy-grail" type stand-alone player that could spin every type of container under the sun... but just think about what you are asking!

LOL there is a holy grail its in the shape of an Xbox with Xbox media centre installed.

As of late I have yet to find a video format that will not play on it. I have successfully tested WM9 in both .avi and .wmv.
All forms of MPEG-4 video work flawlessly including those made by recode so thats .avi, ogm .mp4 containers working fine.
I don’t think it can play back H.264 but then what can as the technology is still very green.

Audio formats:

HE-AAC plays without any problems
Ogg works fine and has for a long time on the Xbox
mp3 obviously works fine
ac3 works fine
and WMA works fine.

Quote:

There are millions of reasons to stop using AVI. Not that recode offers any. Recode encodes to MP4. But outside of that IIRC it does not offer much special at the moment.

Ok so you don’t consider maintaining the original anamorphic aspect without any resizing special.
Also using HE-AAC which is arguably the best audio codec for movies etc
Chapters are also useful
And multiple audio channels (nice to have the directors commentary)
Oh and not to forget subtitles which is especially useful for films such as starwars.

Oh and don’t forget that soon Nero will be adding h.264 to there armoury which from the beta testing looked impressive.

Sharktooth · 11th October 2004, 14:12

A modded xbox is more expensive than a standalone player... but it plays everything in the universe you throw at it, even HD encodes...

SeeMoreDigital · 11th October 2004, 15:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Sharktooth
A modded xbox is more expensive than a standalone player... but it plays everything in the universe you throw at it, even HD encodes...

I guess for what a "tricked up" XboX offers, it represents quite good value for money!

chilledoutuk

Can the XboX really offer, chapter playback, subtitles and multiple audio stream switching in MP4?

Cheers

Sharktooth · 11th October 2004, 19:12

The Xbox can offer everything Mplayer can offer on a PC...

jggimi · 11th October 2004, 19:15

This has gone way off topic.

I can either extract this standalone-player portion of the thread and move it to the Hardware Players forum, or I can move the entire thread there.

Which would people prefer?

SeeMoreDigital · 11th October 2004, 19:47

Quote:

Originally posted by jggimi
This has gone way off topic.

I think the original poster was a little confused about what he was asking about in the first place...

...So I guess this thread was destined to go nowhere anyway!

Maybe some people in the hardware section might gain from it?

Cheers

lilhobo · 14th October 2004, 08:03

still an interesting debate nevertheless. The original poster is confused as to the term "proprietary" to mean "non standard" or "uncommon", rather than the usual understanding of "closed standard" and license fees.

An Xbox is an over glorified toy

If you are desperate for entertainment system: SFF - Small FORM FACTOR PC case is the best, no bigger than an Xbox, with full PC specs and upgradeability albeit 1x PCI, 1x AGP....

Not great value costwise but with aliuminium case: SHUTTLE, MSI, CREATIVE, AOPEN

OS: WMC2004/2005, WinXP with Intervideo Hometheather

chilledoutuk · 16th October 2004, 17:12

you can pick up a XBOX for 100 squid maybe less chip it for 20 then you have a home multimedia system that can do anything including telling you the weather and listen to live radio streams and more.

Also remmeber its Xbox Media Center that offers all these features its under heavy development i remmeber it not being able a few months ago to play the latest WMV9 video but the more recent versions dont have any problems at all.

In answer to seemoredigital it does not recognise the way recode puts chapters at the moment but that may change in the future, i cant remember precisely but i think i remember being able to change audio streams also has the option to switch subtitiles on or but i have not really encoded any videos with subtitles to test this.

the most impressive thing about the xbox is its ricksolid samba netowrking which basically means that i can encode a file on my machine pop down stairs start up the xbox and browse to my shared director with the recently encoded video play it back easy as pie also good way to check your video settings without to much hassle.

28th September 2004, 00:16	#1 \| Link
valnar Registered User Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Cleveland Posts: 485	DivX vs H.264 vs Recode 2, etc. Confused. I've been happily using DivX 5.05 and Gordian Knot for about a year making backups of my DVD's into AVI files, and unfortunately not spent much time on this site reading about the new containers and formats. Can anyone point me to the FAQ's about what is H.264 and *how it compares to or is different from* DivX or XVID? And the new container formats? Is there any reason I want to stop using AVI files with DivX and move onto Nero Recode for the future? My goal is to maintain the same quality, or move up, but to add chapters and subtitles to integrate within the container. Having them seperate is annoying. (No, I don't want anything proprietary like Mastroka or Ogg). Thanks! Robert

28th September 2004, 01:11	#2 \| Link
bond Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 9,780	what about using search, there is a whole sticky in the new av codecs forum, which describes exactly what you want: how divx/xvid is related to h.264. also there are plenty of stickies about new container formats, guess where: in the new av container forum plus you will find lots of infos by using search and reading striked __________________ Between the weak and the strong one it is the freedom which oppresses and the law that liberates (Jean Jacques Rousseau) I know, that I know nothing (Socrates) MPEG-4 ASP FAQ \| AVC/H.264 FAQ \| AAC FAQ \| MP4 FAQ \| MP4Menu stores DVD Menus in MP4 (guide) Ogg Theora \| Ogg Vorbis use WM9 today and get Micro$oft controlling the A/V market tomorrow for free

6th October 2004, 11:18	#8 \| Link
SeeMoreDigital Life looks better in HDTV Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: UK Posts: 10,009	I understand your frustration valnar, it would be great to have an "holy-grail" type stand-alone player that could spin every type of container under the sun... but just think about what you are asking! Take MKV for example. This container can accept just about any combination of audio and video stream. There are many people who use it to mux Real video and AAC audio streams, which is fine... but currently there are no hardware players with chip-sets capable of decoding RealVideo and very few chip-sets that will decode AAC audio... So before we have players that can support all the containers you want. We need to have chip-sets that can decode their content! Cheers EDIT: spelling changes __________________ Still confused about anamorphic images? Then look here! \| Main Encoding Interests: Hardware device playback \| My Gear \| Last edited by SeeMoreDigital; 7th October 2004 at 14:04.

6th October 2004, 21:35	#9 \| Link
bond Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 9,780	"proprieatary" is a pretty meaningless word in this context imho. does anyone think that matroska isnt owned by someone? it would be an interesting case, but i indeed think that the writers of the matroska specs have copyright on it, "own" it. still the ones who might have it dont charge anything for using it and thats the more important part from my point of view... its more important whether things are license-free or not, like xiph's codecs (vorbis, theora aso...) clearly beat mpeg-4 in that matter, altough for example theora and mpeg-4 both are "proprieatary", patented technologies __________________ Between the weak and the strong one it is the freedom which oppresses and the law that liberates (Jean Jacques Rousseau) I know, that I know nothing (Socrates) MPEG-4 ASP FAQ \| AVC/H.264 FAQ \| AAC FAQ \| MP4 FAQ \| MP4Menu stores DVD Menus in MP4 (guide) Ogg Theora \| Ogg Vorbis use WM9 today and get Micro$oft controlling the A/V market tomorrow for free Last edited by bond; 6th October 2004 at 21:49.

11th October 2004, 14:12	#11 \| Link
Sharktooth Mr. Sandman Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Haddonfield, IL Posts: 10,818	A modded xbox is more expensive than a standalone player... but it plays everything in the universe you throw at it, even HD encodes... __________________ MPEG-4 ASP Custom Matrices: EQM V1(old), EQM AutoGK Sharpmatrix (aka EQM V2), EQM V3HR (updated 01/10/2004), EQM V3LR, EQM V3ULR (updated 04/02/2005), EQM V3UHR (updated 17/12/2004) and EQM V3EHR (updated 05/10/2004) Info about my ASP matrices. MPEG-4 AVC Custom Matrices: EQM AVC-HR Info about my AVC matrices My x264 builds. Mooo!!!

6th October 2004, 01:29	#6 \| Link
valnar Registered User Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Cleveland Posts: 485	By proprietary, I mean a STB will support it, like AVI files or the DVD format. Show me an STB that works with OGG/OGM or Mastroka, and I'll start using it. As far as I know, my only playback device for those is a PC? Will the MP4 format take off? Robert

11th October 2004, 19:12	#13 \| Link
Sharktooth Mr. Sandman Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Haddonfield, IL Posts: 10,818	The Xbox can offer everything Mplayer can offer on a PC... __________________ MPEG-4 ASP Custom Matrices: EQM V1(old), EQM AutoGK Sharpmatrix (aka EQM V2), EQM V3HR (updated 01/10/2004), EQM V3LR, EQM V3ULR (updated 04/02/2005), EQM V3UHR (updated 17/12/2004) and EQM V3EHR (updated 05/10/2004) Info about my ASP matrices. MPEG-4 AVC Custom Matrices: EQM AVC-HR Info about my AVC matrices My x264 builds. Mooo!!!

11th October 2004, 19:15	#14 \| Link
jggimi Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The NW corner of Lake Erie Posts: 5,562	This has gone way off topic. I can either extract this standalone-player portion of the thread and move it to the Hardware Players forum, or I can move the entire thread there. Which would people prefer? __________________ "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased." Kehlog Albran, The Profit

14th October 2004, 08:03	#16 \| Link
lilhobo Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 358	still an interesting debate nevertheless. The original poster is confused as to the term "proprietary" to mean "non standard" or "uncommon", rather than the usual understanding of "closed standard" and license fees. An Xbox is an over glorified toy If you are desperate for entertainment system: SFF - Small FORM FACTOR PC case is the best, no bigger than an Xbox, with full PC specs and upgradeability albeit 1x PCI, 1x AGP.... Not great value costwise but with aliuminium case: SHUTTLE, MSI, CREATIVE, AOPEN OS: WMC2004/2005, WinXP with Intervideo Hometheather Last edited by lilhobo; 14th October 2004 at 09:59.

16th October 2004, 17:12	#17 \| Link
chilledoutuk Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 334	you can pick up a XBOX for 100 squid maybe less chip it for 20 then you have a home multimedia system that can do anything including telling you the weather and listen to live radio streams and more. Also remmeber its Xbox Media Center that offers all these features its under heavy development i remmeber it not being able a few months ago to play the latest WMV9 video but the more recent versions dont have any problems at all. In answer to seemoredigital it does not recognise the way recode puts chapters at the moment but that may change in the future, i cant remember precisely but i think i remember being able to change audio streams also has the option to switch subtitiles on or but i have not really encoded any videos with subtitles to test this. the most impressive thing about the xbox is its ricksolid samba netowrking which basically means that i can encode a file on my machine pop down stairs start up the xbox and browse to my shared director with the recently encoded video play it back easy as pie also good way to check your video settings without to much hassle. __________________ HQ XviD Music Video Forum When I'm good I'm very, very good but when I'm bad I'm better.

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