MPEG-4 Standalones and Screwy Framerates

zilog jones · 27th September 2004, 15:58

How do these players usually cope with non-standard framerates? Do they do a 3:2 pulldown conversion on 23.976fps video? But what about 24fps? I've got a good few IVTC-ed stuff which has been converted to that. Can some players convert these two framerates to 25fps for PAL output?

And what about interlaced video? I assume if they can do that, it'll have to be the right vertical res. and whatnot...

And can any of these handle 50/60fps progressive video (I assume by converting back to interlaced)?

Why am I asking so many questions?

manono · 28th September 2004, 15:30

Hi-

I've played .avis with framerates of between 15-29.97fps and everything in between (lots of silent films with non-standard framerates) with no problems at all. My player is a Bravo D1 (Sigma chipset). But I have a progressive HDTV display, so that might make a difference, where interlaced displays might have problems.

So I asked a friend with a Philips DVP642 (ESS chipset) and a standard interlaced TV set to make some experiments. He said that avis at 16, 23.976, 24, 25, 29.97 and 30fps all played fine, although the 25fps .avis exhibited some jaggies on the borders.

In my opinion no one in his right mind would make interlaced .avis, so I don't have any, and can't answer that question. Nor can I answer the question about 50/60fps progressive .avis, although I can understand why you might make those.

All tests were done on NTSC televisions. Hope this helps some.

zilog jones · 29th September 2004, 10:21

What's wrong with making interlaced AVIs for the purpose of watching them on an interlaced TV with one of these players? There's no point in de-interlacing proper video footage if you don't need to...

manono · 29th September 2004, 15:58

Sure there is. You need a heck of a lot less bitrate for the same quality to encode deinterlaced video as compared to interlaced video. And in a couple of years (at most?) you'll have a progressive HDTV, and it'll be deinterlaced by the TV, and you may wish you had deinterlaced earlier, using one of the very good AviSynth deinterlacers. And doesn't encoding interlaced video force you to keep the same vertical resolution so that you don't destroy the field structure? Maybe you do that already. I don't know. Actually I'm not too sure about that.

In any event, as a citizen of NTSC land, I spend my life IVTCing to get rid of interlacing, and I'm not about to keep interlacing in there on purpose.

zilog jones · 29th September 2004, 19:07

Progressive HDTV in a couple of years!?!? There's still (AFAIK) not even a proper HDTV standard in Europe yet, and in my stupid country (Ireland) the main (government-owned) national broadcaster can't afford to even do terrestrial DVB yet, despite saying they will at least 5 years ago! And I - probably like most other people - ain't gonna replace my TV set till it dies. Which could be another decade or so...

Any AviSynth de-interlacers are going to convert it to either progressive 25/30fps or progressive 50/60fps with half the vertical res. - any 100/120Hz prog. scan TV will do a much better job at it.

I know about the bitrate though. But I like my interlaced video interlaced - it just looks so much smoother (movement-wise). If you're talking about NTSC telecined stuff though, well there's not any point in keeping that interlaced because it's a waste of bitrate and just looks like ass anyway.

I suppose a larger percentage of TV shows are filmed (i.e. filmed on film, not with video cameras) in the US, though compared to in PAL regions, it seems, probably because it's easier to convert to PAL for exporting (which happens with pretty much everything - even the crappest of sitcoms like Generic Family No. 47 and Mildly Humourous Workplace No. 352). I'm talking about the real interlaced stuff.

SeeMoreDigital · 29th September 2004, 19:41

Hi zilog jones,

If Mr Murdoch gets his way, all the TV you guys watch in Ireland (north and south) will be broadcast via digital satellite only.

As you know plans are underway for BskyB to offer an FTA non-subscription service (with viewing card). How this will be priced, has yet to be revealed but I can't imagine it will be much more expensive than the "just released" FreeView/TopUpTV capable set-top box (priced at around £80.00)....

....Hopefully you guys in Ireland will receive this service at the same time as Britain. Hopefully the set-top box wont be a striped down pile of crap!

Cheers

EDIT: I've taken to de-interlacing all my DVB-T and DVB-S captures now. They look great on my high-def plasma

Incast · 1st October 2004, 21:40

Post deleted - solution found.

SeeMoreDigital · 1st October 2004, 22:03

What's the solution you found?

Incast · 2nd October 2004, 13:08

Sorry poorly phrased, doesn't really relate to the thread, i was interested in deinterlacing in avisynth versus real time deinterlacing by good flatscreens.

My question was how can deinterlacing by TVs be better, and i've found that they can use the latest field bob techniques etc.

27th September 2004, 15:58	#1 \| Link
zilog jones Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Ireland Posts: 412	MPEG-4 Standalones and Screwy Framerates How do these players usually cope with non-standard framerates? Do they do a 3:2 pulldown conversion on 23.976fps video? But what about 24fps? I've got a good few IVTC-ed stuff which has been converted to that. Can some players convert these two framerates to 25fps for PAL output? And what about interlaced video? I assume if they can do that, it'll have to be the right vertical res. and whatnot... And can any of these handle 50/60fps progressive video (I assume by converting back to interlaced)? Why am I asking so many questions?

29th September 2004, 19:41	#6 \| Link
SeeMoreDigital Life looks better in HDTV Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: UK Posts: 10,009	Hi zilog jones, If Mr Murdoch gets his way, all the TV you guys watch in Ireland (north and south) will be broadcast via digital satellite only. As you know plans are underway for BskyB to offer an FTA non-subscription service (with viewing card). How this will be priced, has yet to be revealed but I can't imagine it will be much more expensive than the "just released" FreeView/TopUpTV capable set-top box (priced at around £80.00).... ....Hopefully you guys in Ireland will receive this service at the same time as Britain. Hopefully the set-top box wont be a striped down pile of crap! Cheers EDIT: I've taken to de-interlacing all my DVB-T and DVB-S captures now. They look great on my high-def plasma __________________ Still confused about anamorphic images? Then look here! \| Main Encoding Interests: Hardware device playback \| My Gear \| Last edited by SeeMoreDigital; 29th September 2004 at 19:45.

1st October 2004, 21:40	#7 \| Link
Incast Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 64	Post deleted - solution found. Last edited by Incast; 1st October 2004 at 22:00.

1st October 2004, 22:03	#8 \| Link
SeeMoreDigital Life looks better in HDTV Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: UK Posts: 10,009	What's the solution you found? __________________ Still confused about anamorphic images? Then look here! \| Main Encoding Interests: Hardware device playback \| My Gear \|

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

28th September 2004, 15:30	#2 \| Link
manono Moderator Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Hawaii Posts: 5,704	Hi- I've played .avis with framerates of between 15-29.97fps and everything in between (lots of silent films with non-standard framerates) with no problems at all. My player is a Bravo D1 (Sigma chipset). But I have a progressive HDTV display, so that might make a difference, where interlaced displays might have problems. So I asked a friend with a Philips DVP642 (ESS chipset) and a standard interlaced TV set to make some experiments. He said that avis at 16, 23.976, 24, 25, 29.97 and 30fps all played fine, although the 25fps .avis exhibited some jaggies on the borders. In my opinion no one in his right mind would make interlaced .avis, so I don't have any, and can't answer that question. Nor can I answer the question about 50/60fps progressive .avis, although I can understand why you might make those. All tests were done on NTSC televisions. Hope this helps some.

29th September 2004, 10:21	#3 \| Link
zilog jones Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Ireland Posts: 412	What's wrong with making interlaced AVIs for the purpose of watching them on an interlaced TV with one of these players? There's no point in de-interlacing proper video footage if you don't need to...

29th September 2004, 15:58	#4 \| Link
manono Moderator Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Hawaii Posts: 5,704	Sure there is. You need a heck of a lot less bitrate for the same quality to encode deinterlaced video as compared to interlaced video. And in a couple of years (at most?) you'll have a progressive HDTV, and it'll be deinterlaced by the TV, and you may wish you had deinterlaced earlier, using one of the very good AviSynth deinterlacers. And doesn't encoding interlaced video force you to keep the same vertical resolution so that you don't destroy the field structure? Maybe you do that already. I don't know. Actually I'm not too sure about that. In any event, as a citizen of NTSC land, I spend my life IVTCing to get rid of interlacing, and I'm not about to keep interlacing in there on purpose.

29th September 2004, 19:07	#5 \| Link
zilog jones Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Ireland Posts: 412	Progressive HDTV in a couple of years!?!? There's still (AFAIK) not even a proper HDTV standard in Europe yet, and in my stupid country (Ireland) the main (government-owned) national broadcaster can't afford to even do terrestrial DVB yet, despite saying they will at least 5 years ago! And I - probably like most other people - ain't gonna replace my TV set till it dies. Which could be another decade or so... Any AviSynth de-interlacers are going to convert it to either progressive 25/30fps or progressive 50/60fps with half the vertical res. - any 100/120Hz prog. scan TV will do a much better job at it. I know about the bitrate though. But I like my interlaced video interlaced - it just looks so much smoother (movement-wise). If you're talking about NTSC telecined stuff though, well there's not any point in keeping that interlaced because it's a waste of bitrate and just looks like ass anyway. I suppose a larger percentage of TV shows are filmed (i.e. filmed on film, not with video cameras) in the US, though compared to in PAL regions, it seems, probably because it's easier to convert to PAL for exporting (which happens with pretty much everything - even the crappest of sitcoms like Generic Family No. 47 and Mildly Humourous Workplace No. 352). I'm talking about the real interlaced stuff.

2nd October 2004, 13:08	#9 \| Link
Incast Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 64	Sorry poorly phrased, doesn't really relate to the thread, i was interested in deinterlacing in avisynth versus real time deinterlacing by good flatscreens. My question was how can deinterlacing by TVs be better, and i've found that they can use the latest field bob techniques etc.